[Zamuel]

https://apnews.com/e913e9f2e4b04e5986a2f7054ebd0dda DENVER (AP) — Colorado State University is inviting two Native American teenagers pulled from a campus tour by police back to the school, saying it will pick up the tab for them to travel there for a VIP tour with their family.

The school also released body camera footage Friday showing two police officers searching the teens’ pockets and recordings of two phone calls made to police by a woman who described the teens’ behavior as “really odd” but also said she may be “paranoid.”

The school said it would refund the money that 19-year-old Thomas Kanewakeron Gray and his 17-year-old brother, Lloyd Skanahwati Gray, spent to travel to the school for last Monday’s tour.

“Two young men, through no fault of their own, wound up frightened and humiliated because another campus visitor was concerned about their clothes and overall demeanor, which appears to have simply been shyness. The very idea that someone — anyone — might ‘look’ like they don’t belong on a CSU Admissions tour is anathema,” university president Tony Frank wrote in an email to students and staff Friday.

The university is taking several steps to prevent a similar situation from happening again, including the use of lanyards or badges to identify tour guests.

Thomas Kanewakeron Gray said police stopped him and his brother while the tour group was inside a gymnasium. He described the officers’ questioning as aggressive.

The video footage shows the brothers — one wearing a T-shirt and the other a hooded sweatshirt — walking in a group and down a set of stairs when an officer approaches and directs them to step aside, saying he and another officer — who is not visible in the video — are going to check the teens’ pockets.

The younger brother has his hands in his pockets, and police officers ask him to take them out.

At first, the officer visible in the video asks the Grays short, focused questions, including whether they were part of the tour group and why they didn’t “cooperate” when others asked them their names.

“The reason we stopped you and talked to you is because someone from the group called and said you guys just kind of came into the group,” the officer said. “They also said they tried to ask you guys questions and you didn’t want to answer questions.”

The older teen quickly responds, explaining that they had arrived late for the tour and that his younger brother is shy. The younger teen offers to retrieve the email confirming their tour reservations.

“Yeah, yeah, do that, and then we’ll get you out of here,” the officer shown in the video said.

The other officer adds: “People were just worried because you guys were real quiet and they didn’t know who you were because you guys didn’t show up with parents or any of that stuff.”

By then, however, their tour group had moved on without them and the brothers left the campus in Fort Collins, a city of about 160,000 and 65 miles (105 kilometers) north of Denver, and returned home to New Mexico.

“I think it’s pretty discriminatory,” Thomas Kanewakeron Gray said Thursday. “Me and my brother just stayed to ourselves the whole time. I guess that was scaring people; that we were just quiet.”

According to the recording, the caller told a dispatcher that the teens arrived late in the tour and wouldn’t respond to questions about their names or what they wanted to study at the school.

“They are not, definitely not, a part of the tour,” said the woman, identified in a police report as a 45-year-old white woman from Colorado. “And their behavior is just really odd. And I’ve never called, ever, about anybody. But they joined our tour. They won’t give their names.”

The woman also said during the call that the teens were “lying the whole time,” but doesn’t offer specifics to support the claim, except to say that one of them laughed when she asked what they were studying. She also repeatedly told the dispatcher that her concern could be “completely paranoid” and apologized “if it’s nothing.”

Other than saying the teens were wearing all black clothing with “dark stuff on it,” the caller did not physically describe them until questioned by the dispatcher. She said she believed they were Hispanic, and described their clothing as having a “weird symbolism or wording on it.”

It appears at least one of the brothers was wearing a T-shirt of a death metal band called Cattle Decapitation. On its Facebook page, the band offered the teens “free guest list spots to our shows for life.”

The caller’s name was redacted in the police report, along with the teenagers’ names.

The teens’ mother, Lorraine Gray, said Friday that she remained infuriated over the incident, and questioned the police handling of it, as well as the caller’s decision to report her sons.

“What do their clothes have to do with anything? Why would you be worried about a person’s clothes?” the mother said.

Gray says one of the officers who questioned her sons later told her in a phone call that maybe the incident would teach the teens to “speak up for themselves” in the future.

She said the family has received apologetic messages from the university and is aware of its offer to return to the school for a VIP tour. However, she said they are not ready to respond, given that she and her sons have not had the opportunity to fully discuss the situation.

The younger son is a senior at Santa Fe Indian School, which is about a 30-minute drive from the family home and where he stays in a dorm during the week with other Native American students from tribes across the United States.

The older brother is a student at Northern New Mexico College in Espanola and hoped to transfer.

The siblings saved until they had enough money to drive the roughly seven hours from the family’s home in Santa Cruz, New Mexico, to Fort Collins for the tour.

The older brother said the school was their first choice, because of its proximity to Denver, where they could attend concerts. The brothers, both Mohawk, are musicians, and study contemporary and traditional music.

The brothers’ ordeal marks the latest in a series of incidences nationwide spotlighting treatment minorities often face in everyday circumstances, including the arrest of two black men at a Starbucks in Philadelphia who were handcuffed and taken to jail after a worker said they had refused to buy anything or leave.

An interesting counterpoint to recent events at Starbucks and the "Flying while Fat and Black incident". I can understand why these guys behavior triggered some alarm bells. "Better safe than sorry" the saying goes. In the light of recent "active shooter" events their behavior could appear questionable.

Aggressive Police actions (after determining the boys were unarmed) seem less questionable, perhaps inexcusable. University response seems reasonable, it appears they just want to make things right.

Zam

[One Degree]

@Zamuel I basically agree with your evaluation, but what exactly were “aggressive police actions”? From the quotes, it sounded like the police were reasonable.

[Zamuel]

@Zamuel I basically agree with your evaluation, but what exactly were “aggressive police actions”? From the quotes, it sounded like the police were reasonable.

Anything beyond ascertaining that the guys were unarmed and not fugitives was excessive. The cops separated them from the group and whether intentional or not, prematurely ended their tour and ruined their trip (which they invested $$$ and at least 14 hours in.) That's not "reasonable."

Zam

[One Degree]

Anything beyond ascertaining that the guys were unarmed and not fugitives was excessive. The cops separated them from the group and whether intentional or not, prematurely ended their tour and ruined their trip (which they invested $$$ and at least 14 hours in.) That's not "reasonable."

Zam

Naturally, they would want them separated from the group immediately. It is also natural they question them long enough to see if they get fidgety. This is just common sense police action. They were called. They needed to do their jobs. It is too bad the boys had to go through it, but we only know that from hindsight. The police did not have the advantage of hindsight.
I don’t know why the public expects the innocent to never be harassed when there is no way for the police to know they are innocent. It is a minor price we should all be willing to pay. The boys suffered no real harm and were more than adequately compensated.

[Zamuel]

I don’t know why the public expects the innocent to never be harassed when there is no way for the police to know they are innocent.

I seem to recall something about "innocent until proven guilty … remember that ?

It is a minor price we should all be willing to pay.

Quoting Goebbels now?

Zam

[One Degree]

I seem to recall something about "innocent until proven guilty … remember that ?


Quoting Goebbels now?

Zam

So, you changed your mind about the police needed to take it seriously? They should have waited to see if they actually started harming people? I am good with either method, but let’s make up our minds which we want them to do. Blaming them no matter what they do seems a little unfair.

[layman]

The policeman apologised when he realised he made a mistake. By us standards it appears to have gone well as no one was shot.

The dick here is the women who called them because they seemed suspicious. Suspicious for not answering her questions and turning up late .....

[One Degree]

The policeman apologised when he realised he made a mistake. By us standards it appears to have gone well as no one was shot.

The dick here is the women who called them because they seemed suspicious. Suspicious for not answering her questions and turning up late .....

The policeman did not make a mistake. He did his job. My guess is he apologized for the inconvenience that was required procedure after getting the call.

[Zamuel]

So, you changed your mind about the police needed to take it seriously?

Where does it say that? The police needed to insure there was no threat, and they're always required to check for fugitive status …

Beyond that it's harassment, "Out of state Indians." I the boys had complained, gotten argumentative, they'd have gone to jail for "Disorderly conduct." A common cop trick, they may have gotten knocked around a bit in the process. If they'd run away, there is indeed a possibility they'd have been shot.

The dick here is the women who called them because they seemed suspicious. Suspicious for not answering her questions and turning up late

Kinda … She did get ethnic about it, but also real over-imaginative I think. I'd bet she's happy to be proven wrong. I don't see anything about a police "apology" though ?

Zam

[layman]

It was actually in a bbc story that I read before clicking on this. Can’t find it now but if he didn’t, he should have.

I do agree it’s not the policeman’s fault but he should apologise for the inconvenience out of manners. Perhaps that is a British way of looking at it?

Just because he is doing his job and had to follow up this stupid complaint, doesn’t mean he can’t be sorry. It’s just one of many ways police should show that they are there to serve. No one wants to live in a country with aggressive police who don’t empathise when innocents are caught up.

[Pants-of-dog]

This is yet another reason why we need to teach indigenous languages in schools. If people actually knew adn interected with indigenous people and languages on a regular basis, the behaviour of these children would not have seemed out of place.

And if white people understood how dangerous cops are (if you are a person of colour) then maybe they would stop doing things like risking the lives of these children by calling the cops on them.

But racism is still a thing.

[One Degree]

This is yet another reason why we need to teach indigenous languages in schools. If people actually knew adn interected with indigenous people and languages on a regular basis, the behaviour of these children would not have seemed out of place.

And if white people understood how dangerous cops are (if you are a person of colour) then maybe they would stop doing things like risking the lives of these children by calling the cops on them.

But racism is still a thing.

Cops are dangerous compared to what? You are more likely to be harmed by bees than cops. Are the bees racist? Stop the lies. Saying it over and over does not change the fact you are highly unlikely to be harmed by a police officer unless you have a criminal record. Harming criminals is not racist.

[Pants-of-dog]

Cops are dangerous compared to what? You are more likely to be harmed by bees than cops. Are the bees racist?

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/nativ ... index.html

Allegations of excessive police use of force against African-Americans have captured the nation's attention in recent years. But there's another group whose stories you're less likely to hear about.

Native Americans are killed in police encounters at a higher rate than any other racial or ethnic group, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Yet rarely do these deaths gain the national spotlight.
This lack of attention has prompted some advocates to start social media campaigns reminiscent of Black Lives Matter.

....

Stop the lies.

Calling me a liar is a personal attack and not an argument.

Saying it over and over does not change the fact you are highly unlikely to be harmed by a police officer unless you have a criminal record. Harming criminals is not racist.

Thank you for providing an example of how some white people refuse to acknowledge the danger of calling the police on children and risking violence against said children.

[One Degree]

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.html

Allegations of excessive police use of force against African-Americans have captured the nation's attention in recent years. But there's another group whose stories you're less likely to hear about.

Native Americans are killed in police encounters at a higher rate than any other racial or ethnic group, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Yet rarely do these deaths gain the national spotlight.
This lack of attention has prompted some advocates to start social media campaigns reminiscent of Black Lives Matter.

....

Did not call you a liar. The belief police are a serious danger is a lie. The facts and probability show you have almost zero reason to fear the police unless you have a criminal record. You are only a liar if you know you are promoting a lie.



Calling me a liar is a personal attack and not an argument.





Thank you for providing an example of how some white people refuse to acknowledge the danger of calling the police on children and risking violence against said children.

Did not call you a liar. The belief police are a serious danger is a lie. The facts and probability show you have almost zero reason to fear the police unless you have a criminal record. You are only a liar if you know you are promoting a lie.
They are children now, but they are not children when they protest at the same age? Make up your mind. Why did these children not answer simple questions? Only their refusal to answer caused this woman alarm. They are partially responsible also. Not understanding other cultures works both ways.

[Pants-of-dog]

Did not call you a liar. The belief police are a serious danger is a lie. The facts and probability show you have almost zero reason to fear the police unless you have a criminal record. You are only a liar if you know you are promoting a lie.

Calling me a liar is a personal attack and not an argument. Provide arguments.

They are children now, but they are not children when they protest at the same age? Make up your mind.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Why did these children not answer simple questions? Only their refusal to answer caused this woman alarm. They are partially responsible also. Not understanding other cultures works both ways.

Because they are shy, and because there are different cultural and social customs that accompany asking questions. It is entirely possible that they did not pick up on the social cues that meant that they would have to be interrogated by police if they did not answer.

I guess they should have learnt that in white culture, people of colour must answer all questions or have the cops called on them.

[Sivad]

If people actually knew adn interected with indigenous people and languages on a regular basis, the behaviour of these children would not have seemed out of place.

Bullshit. I know and interact with natives all the time, I went camping with three natives this weekend. None of them behave that way. Refusing to give their names or answer basic questions after showing up late and laughing inappropriately is suspicious behavior. Anybody acting like that would have made people leery.

[One Degree]

Because they are shy, and because there are different cultural and social customs that accompany asking questions. It is entirely possible that they did not pick up on the social cues that meant that they would have to be interrogated by police if they did not answer.

I guess they should have learnt that in white culture, people of colour must answer all questions or have the cops called on them.

That is correct @Pants-of-dog . It is their responsibility to understand the majority culture just as much as our responsibility to understand their culture. Arguably more so on their part due to it benefiting them. Why should it only be one way?

[Pants-of-dog]

Bullshit. I know and interact with natives all the time, I went camping with three natives this weekend. None of them behave that way. Refusing to give their names or answer basic questions after showing up late and laughing inappropriately is suspicious behavior. Anybody acting like that would have made people leery.

It strongly depends on which community you are dealing with.

They are not one culture. They are hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of different cultures, each with their own social mores and customs. For example, many Cree people up here do not look people in the eye. They are often accused of being disrespectful or refusing to listen because of this, however they see the act of eye contact as disrespectful.

I have no idea what community these kids are from, nor do I know their social customs, but my point is that the white woman who called the cops seems just as ignorant.

And also please note that the accusations of lying and laughing come solely from the white woman and are contradicted by the claims of the kids. They are not corroborated by any other source or evidence.

———————

Lol. Thanks, @One Degree, for agreeing that some white people have an expectation that people of colour should obey orders from white people or face police.

[One Degree]

It strongly depends on which community you are dealing with.

They are not one culture. They are hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of different cultures, each with their own social mores and customs. For example, many Cree people up here do not look people in the eye. They are often accused of being disrespectful or refusing to listen because of this, however they see the act of eye contact as disrespectful.

I have no idea what community these kids are from, nor do I know their social customs, but my point is that the white woman who called the cops seems just as ignorant.

And also please note that the accusations of lying and laughing come solely from the white woman and are contradicted by the claims of the kids. They are not corroborated by any other source or evidence.

———————

Lol. Thanks, @One Degree, for agreeing that some white people have an expectation that people of colour should obey orders from white people or face police.

Your welcome. I think we will find out the ‘white woman’ was in charge of this group and had a legitimate reason for questioning them. Let’s wait and find out.

[Sivad]

It strongly depends on which community you are dealing with.

They are not one culture. They are hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of different cultures, each with their own social mores and customs. For example, many Cree people up here do not look people in the eye. They are often accused of being disrespectful or refusing to listen because of this, however they see the act of eye contact as disrespectful.

I have no idea what community these kids are from, nor do I know their social customs, but my point is that the white woman who called the cops seems just as ignorant.

It's silly to expect everyone to know the specific interpersonal customs of thousands of cultures. It makes a lot more sense for the natives to learn how to behave in mainstream culture. You're not going to get very far in America if you refuse to introduce yourself or make eye contact.

And also please note that the accusations of lying and laughing come solely from the white woman and are contradicted by the claims of the kids. They are not corroborated by any other source or evidence.

They didn't contradict her, they explained that their odd behavior was due to extreme shyness.