Colorado State University screws up. - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14912571
Pants-of-dog wrote:That is an interesting take on it.

If that is the case, and it may well be, then ISIS and Al-Qaeda are more effective than I thought. They would then have managed to effectively make many white US residents fearful of any person of colour.


Funky old white ladies anyway … And they stir the latent fear among police officers, which expresses itself in many unfortunate ways. (which they then exploit thru corrosive media.)

Zam :hmm:
#14912572
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then it is a good thing I never used my feelings as an argument.


You're charging racism without any evidence. The charge is based on nothing but your feelings.

But in debate, such as we are involved in now, this is a fallacy called appeal to popularity.


I wasn't making an appeal to popularity, I was just pointing out that your opinion is irrelevant because very few people share it.

That does not change the fact


You have yet to establish a single fact, you're just speculating about the secret motivations of a person that you don't know. I'm inclined to take her at word because there's no reason not to.
#14912588
Sivad wrote:You're charging racism without any evidence. The charge is based on nothing but your feelings.


Actually, I argued that it may have been confusion on the part of the woman due to cultural ignorance about the mores of whatever indigenous community from which these boys came.

I also pointed out that if this was not the case, then it may be racism.

I wasn't making an appeal to popularity, I was just pointing out that your opinion is irrelevant because very few people share it.


Irrelevant in what way?

You have yet to establish a single fact, you're just speculating about the secret motivations of a person that you don't know. I'm inclined to take her at word because there's no reason not to.


You mean, other than the fact that her testimony is contradicted by the testimony of the two kids.

As to facts, it is a fact that many indigenous communities have different social mores and customs than white people.

It is also a fact that the woman in question did not even recognise they were indigenous and thought they were Mexican, which corroborates the idea that she had no idea they were indigenous and may be acting according to different social mores.

Considering the fact that she gets several things wrong about the two kids, like the idea that they are not part of the tour, it makes no sense to assume that she was right about everything else.

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/2 ... 582637002/

    Dispatch: CSU police, this is Ginger.

    Caller: Hi ... I am with my son doing a campus tour ... There are two young men that joined our tour that weren't a part of our tour. They're not, definitely not a part of the tour. And their behavior is just really odd, and I've never called, ever, about anybody, but they joined our tour. They won't give their names and when I asked them what they were wanting to study, like everything they're saying isn't ... they were lying the whole time. And they're just wearing like very ... they just really stand out. ... Like their clothing has dark stuff on it, like dark things.

    Dispatch: Their clothing what?

    Caller: Just, uh, kind of just weird symbolism or wording on it, and one of them has their left hand in his oversize sweatshirt the whole time.

    Dispatch: Are you guys still out with them now?

    Caller: Well, I'm not. I stepped out. They're in the Lory Student Center.

    (Dispatcher and caller talk about the pair's location information)

    Caller: It's probably nothing. I'm probably being completely paranoid with just everything that's happened ...

    (Dispatcher and caller continue to talk about location information)

    Caller: I feel completely ridiculous. They're probably fine and just creepy kids.

    Dispatch: It's fine. We certainly don't mind you calling. I'd rather you call and us and check on it and everything check out OK.

    (Dispatch waits while the caller texts her husband for location information)

    Caller: If it's nothing, I'm sorry, but they, it actually made me feel, like, sick, and I've never felt like that.

    Dispatch: Can you give me a description of the males? Starting with one of them.

    Caller: I'm 5-5. They're not much taller than I am so maybe 5-7. One has, like, above his shoulder length hair and it's wavy, split in the middle. They both are wearing like black clothing.

    Dispatch: Are they white males?

    Caller: I think they're Hispanic, I believe. One of them for sure. He said he's from Mexico. When I asked what they were wanting to study I could tell they were making stuff up because one of them started to laugh about it. One is heavier. One is probably 5-7 and, you know, thinner, I don't know maybe 130-40 pounds.

    Dispatcher: Can you give me a clothing description on that person?

    Caller: They both are wearing black.

    Dispatcher: OK. All black?

    Caller: Mm-hmm. ...

    (Call gets disconnected due to incoming call. Recording continues when woman calls back after getting disconnected. The caller and dispatcher continue to talk about he group's location.)

    Caller: (My husband) said another dad, also, another man that was on the tour also believes they don't belong. Their behavior is very suspicious so they're watching them also.

    (Caller and dispatcher talk about location.)

    Caller: And I know I'm probably just being paranoid. I've never done this before.

    Dispatch: Well, the fact that more than one person noticed the strange behavior ...

    (Dispatcher says she will send police to the area and asks caller to contact them if she gets more information.)
#14912605
Pants-of-dog wrote:Actually, I argued that it may have been confusion on the part of the woman due to cultural ignorance about the mores of whatever indigenous community from which these boys came.

I also pointed out that if this was not the case, then it may be racism.


You've repeatedly accused the woman of racism. Do I really need to quote your bullshit back to you?


Irrelevant in what way?


Politically, the only way that matters.

You mean, other than the fact that her testimony is contradicted by the testimony of the two kids.


There were no contradictions, you just made that up and now you're pretending like it's accepted.


Considering the fact that she gets several things wrong about the two kids, like the idea that they are not part of the tour, it makes no sense to assume that she was right about everything else.


She made reasonable inferences from their behavior. If anyone was behaving in that way in that setting someone would likely call the cops. The moral of this story is if you don't want to talk to cops don't act like suspicious weirdos.
#14912632
Sivad wrote:You've repeatedly accused the woman of racism. Do I really need to quote your bullshit back to you?


Please quote me. Thanks.

Politically, the only way that matters.


If my interpretation was so irrelevant and unpopular, then why did the university basically pay for the kids to get their own VIP tour, including travel fare?

There were no contradictions, you just made that up and now you're pretending like it's accepted.


She said they were laughing and lying.

They said they were quiet.

These two stories contradict each other.

She made reasonable inferences from their behavior. If anyone was behaving in that way in that setting someone would likely call the cops. The moral of this story is if you don't want to talk to cops don't act like suspicious weirdos.


Please note that I have actually shown that she was factually incorrect.

She claimed they were Mexican. She even claimed that one of them said they were Mexican. They are, of course, not Mexican. She said they were definitely not part of the tour. They were, in fact, part of the tour.

You have repeated your unsupported assumption that she was somehow making rational decisions based on logical inferences. What reasonable inferences did she make from their behaviour?

And no, I do not think that this type of behaviour would be seen as worthy of police attention in most cases. If it were, angsty teenagers would be dealing with cops every single day.
#14912640
Sivad wrote:They are.


No. Neither of my two really angsty teenagers had to deal with cops today.

But I would not be surprised if “Mexican” teenage kids wearing black and acting weird had to deal with cops on a disproportionate basis.
#14912654
The police's policy of responding to every call is at fault here. The whole point of calling the cops is that they have more knowledge and experience than civilians and can make judgement calls that the rest of us cannot. Placing that burden on the public is unreasonable.

In the UK the police don't even bother to come to your house when you tell them a burglar is there. "Sorry mate, we're all busy watching Youtube to make sure your pets aren't being racist."

Also, LOL at the argument that the police don't kill that many people. What about the 12 million they arrested non-violently? 12 million!?! In the "land of the free". :lol:
#14912655
Most people do understand that calling the cops for bizarre behavior is perfectly reasonable


I guess I am not most people. I would not call the police for weird behaviour. Even 109 weirder than was reported.

Is this an American thing? Do your cops really have the time to investigate laughing, late attendance and being shy?
#14912659
I'll be honest with you. This was caused by a lazy dispatcher and cops that chose to come instead of just calling the university and getting in touch with the tour guide asking her to check her list.

Dispatcher could have just asked "can I speak with them?"...
#14912668
colliric wrote:I'll be honest with you. This was caused by a lazy dispatcher and cops that chose to come instead of just calling the university and getting in touch with the tour guide asking her to check her list.

Dispatcher could have just asked "can I speak with them?"...


As simple and practical as that seems, it's just not going to happen in the US. Police dispatchers & 911 operators are civilians and prohibited from involving themselves. Only official "Law enforcement Personnel" are empowered to take any action. In general, cops are expected to respond, not sit on their butts and make phone inquiries. Think about what happens if they're eating donuts / drinking coffee while the phone is ringing … and on the other end people are getting shot.

Zam
#14912683
Marching and demanding gun control as a solution to school shootings then calling people racists for reporting unusual behavior at a school is hypocritical. I doubt this would have made the news if the boys were white.
It should also be noticed the lady never mentioned race until 911 asked her about it. Quit inventing racism.
If it was racist, she would have volunteered a racial description.
#14912775
One Degree wrote:I doubt this would have made the news if the boys were white.

I doubt anyone would have called the cops if the boys were white.

Zam :hmm:
#14912779
AFAIK wrote:Also, LOL at the argument that the police don't kill that many people.


How many people do you think cops kill? Not that many considering how violent American culture is. Most of the 0.000003% of arrests that end in fatal shootings by police are completely justified.

What about the 12 million they arrested non-violently? 12 million!?! In the "land of the free"


What about them? Most people in prison(87%) are in for violent felonies. "The New Jim Crow" is a bullshit liberal myth.
#14912786
Pants-of-dog wrote:If my interpretation was so irrelevant and unpopular, then why did the university basically pay for the kids to get their own VIP tour, including travel fare?


The administration didn't have to do that, it was just a courtesy.

She said they were laughing and lying.

They said they were quiet.

These two stories contradict each other.


There's no contradiction. They were very quiet and when she asked them what they were studying they gave her some goofy answer and started laughing. You're just grasping at straws.

Please note that I have actually shown that she was factually incorrect.


No she wasn't and no you haven't. She said the boys were behaving very strangely and that she didn't know if they were a threat or not. The boys explained their strange behavior to the cops so they were definitely behaving strangely.

She claimed they were Mexican. She even claimed that one of them said they were Mexican. They are, of course, not Mexican. She said they were definitely not part of the tour. They were, in fact, part of the tour.


They told her they were Mexican, they lied. They were obviously fucking with her.

You have repeated your unsupported assumption that she was somehow making rational decisions based on logical inferences. What reasonable inferences did she make from their behaviour?


That they could be a threat to public safety.

And no, I do not think that this type of behaviour would be seen as worthy of police attention in most cases.


There you go with your feelings again. You weren't there so how the fuck would you know?
#14912815
Sivad wrote:The administration didn't have to do that, it was just a courtesy.


...which shows that they did so of their own volition, which in turn shows that their opinion is aligned with my argument.

There's no contradiction. They were very quiet and when she asked them what they were studying they gave her some goofy answer and started laughing. You're just grasping at straws.


While that is possible, it makes more sense to assume that the two stories contradict each other. This can be inferred from the article cited in the OP:

    “I think it’s pretty discriminatory,” Thomas Kanewakeron Gray said Thursday. “Me and my brother just stayed to ourselves the whole time. I guess that was scaring people; that we were just quiet.”

So, when he says "the whole time" and "we were just quiet", this implies that they were silent for the entire time. This contradicts the story given by the other parent.

No she wasn't and no you haven't. She said the boys were behaving very strangely and that she didn't know if they were a threat or not. The boys explained their strange behavior to the cops so they were definitely behaving strangely.


Yes, she was factually incorrect about whether they were part of the tour, their heritage, and her certainty about their tour involvement and heritage.

Feel free to deny this again, but the call transcript clearly shows her incorrect claims. And since I posted the transcript, anyone reading this thread can see for themselves that the woman was factually incorrect.

My point was that it is illogical to assume she was 100% correct about every single other aspect of the event.

Yet you do believe she is correct. Why?

They told her they were Mexican, they lied. They were obviously fucking with her.


That is what she claims. There is no evidence to support this. The facts as we know them imply that she is incorrect about this as well.

Why would the two kids lie to her about this? They are Mohawk, apparently. And my experience with Mohawks is that they are an exceptionally proud people who would never sully themselves by claiming to be something other than Mohawk.

That they could be a threat to public safety.


Please show how it would be reasonable to assume that shy kids wearing heavy metal shirts are a threat to public safety.

There you go with your feelings again. You weren't there so how the fuck would you know?


There goes that temper of yours.

Please show how sullen teenagers deserve to have cops called on them for being shy.
#14913248
Pants-of-dog wrote:They are Mohawk, apparently. And my experience with Mohawks is that they are an exceptionally proud people who would never sully themselves by claiming to be something other than Mohawk.

Where do you get the notion they are "Mohawk?"

Zam
#14913458
AFAIK wrote:Also, LOL at the argument that the police don't kill that many people. What about the 12 million they arrested non-violently? 12 million!?! In the "land of the free". :lol:

This was in response to Pod's claim that police contact is dangerous for non-whites, i.e. he's saying the women put the two boys at risk of being shot. Nothing could be further from the truth, as the chances of being shot or even experiencing violence when dealing with a police officer in the US are minuscule for anybody regardless of skin colour, at least as long as you don't attack the police officer. It's Pod's charge that deserves ridicule rather than the response which presents some data and is based on facts.
#14913509
Dispatch: Are they white males?

Caller: I think they're Hispanic, I believe. One of them for sure. He said he's from Mexico. When I asked what they were wanting to study I could tell they were making stuff up because one of them started to laugh about it. One is heavier. One is probably 5-7 and, you know, thinner, I don't know maybe 130-40 pounds.


The most hilarious thing about this is that the dispatcher was questioning whether they were white males. Isn't that racial profiling? Like the very thing that blacks and Hispanics are always complaining about?

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