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#14914310
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:OK, you moved the goalposts again. :lol: Now you are claiming her fear is based on a past event that is completely unrelated to this incident. She is apparently incapable of distinguishing between what appears to have been a military operation a long time ago and two police officers responding to a call. If this is the case, it sounds more like paranoia or some PTSD type issue than a reasonable fear.


No, I never claimed that her fear is based on this.

I am educating you about the history that Mohawks have with North American governments. In the comtext of a white European, the police are not people who are literally trying to take your land, children, and livelihood away. For Mohawks, there is a different context.

But your ad hominems directed at the mother are noted. And even if she is as neurotic as you claim, she was still right about cops harassing her kids because they are visibly non-white.

No, that wasn't my question. We've already established that the chances of being shot by a police officer are minuscule, regardless of ethnic background. Taking the higher number of 24 in 2016 in Sivad's post, the chance is 5 per million for Native Americans. I think any reasonable person would have to admit that this is not sufficient grounds for being fearful of contact with police officers. Do you agree?


No. If you know cops shoot people every day, and get away with it every day, and they target young men of colour disproportionately, then it is a rational fear.

When I see police on the streets, it always crosses my mind that they are, for all practical purposes, armed men walking around with almost no oversight.

You are far more likely to be shot by police than be a victim of a terrorist attack, so if you think this is an irrational fear because of its lack of frequency, then you are also saying that the fight against terrorism is based on an irrational fear.

Someone else brought up the worries about school shootings. You are also more likely to be shot by police than in a school shooting. By calling the cops to a school, you are effectively increasing the chances of a shooting in the school.

Well, yes, she misjudged the situation. It happens, especially if people are encouraged to call the police even if in doubt.


Yes, she really had no reason to call the police.

So there must have been some other motive instead of rational suspicion.
#14914319
Kaiserschmarrn wrote: Taking the higher number of 24 in 2016 in Sivad's post, the chance is 5 per million for Native Americans.


It would be even lower than that because at least 90% of those shootings were justified. So really there was less than a one in a million chance of an unprovoked shooting.
#14914320
In 74 percent of all fatal police shootings, the individuals had already fired shots, brandished a gun or attacked a person with a weapon or their bare hands, according to an analysis of actions immediately preceding the shootings, which draws on reports from law enforcement agencies and local media coverage. These 595 cases include fatal shootings that followed a wide range of violent crimes, including shootouts, stabbings, hostage situations, carjackings and assaults.

Another 16 percent of the shootings came after incidents that did not involve firearms or active attacks but featured other potentially dangerous threats. These shootings were most commonly of individuals who brandished knives and refused to drop them.

The 5 percent of cases that are often second-guessed include individuals who police said failed to follow their orders, made sudden movements or were accidentally shot. In another 4 percent of cases, The Post was unable to determine the circumstances of the shootings because of limited information or ongoing investigations.
http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol ... ified.aspx
#14914327
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, she really had no reason to call the police.


Given the context of recent events coupled with their attire and demeanor, she had good reason to call the cops. She even told the dispatcher that she wasn't sure, that it was probably nothing, and that it might just be paranoia, so it wasn't malice or racism that prompted the call.
#14914346
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, I never claimed that her fear is based on this. I am educating you about the history that Mohawks have with North American governments. In the comtext of a white European, the police are not people who are literally trying to take your land, children, and livelihood away. For Mohawks, there is a different context.

But your ad hominems directed at the mother are noted. And even if she is as neurotic as you claim, she was still right about cops harassing her kids because they are visibly non-white.

You said the mother's fear is reasonable considering the historical incident you described. Now you seem to retract that claim and say her fear has nothing to do with the incident. I fully expect you to go back on that in your next response and again claim that her fear is justified because of it. I'm not really trying to make sense of this any longer, as it seems futile, but it's still amusing to follow your ever changing assertions.

Pants-of-dog wrote:No. If you know cops shoot people every day, and get away with it every day, and they target young men of colour disproportionately, then it is a rational fear.
When I see police on the streets, it always crosses my mind that they are, for all practical purposes, armed men walking around with almost no oversight.

Thanks, so you do actually believe that minorities are under siege. Just to get us back on track, that's what I suggested earlier, i.e. that many smart progressives, such are yourself, believe this, despite clear evidence to the contrary, and hence these erroneous beliefs seem to be quite independent of intelligence. Additionally, lots of people probably don't know any better and only get their information from misleading news articles. So to repeat it's probably not surprising that *some* Native Americans are fearful whenever they see a cop and think the next thing the cop will do is shoot them without warning, when in reality the chances of that happening are virtually non-existent.

Pants-of-dog wrote:You are far more likely to be shot by police than be a victim of a terrorist attack, so if you think this is an irrational fear because of its lack of frequency, then you are also saying that the fight against terrorism is based on an irrational fear.
Someone else brought up the worries about school shootings. You are also more likely to be shot by police than in a school shooting. By calling the cops to a school, you are effectively increasing the chances of a shooting in the school.

I would say that fearing a terrorist attack when you go about your daily business is irrational, because as you say the chances of a person being involved in an attack are extremely low. The same holds for being shot by police and even more so for innocents being shot by police. However, by your logic it is reasonable to be afraid when a Muslims approaches you on the street or enters a plane with you because he may blow himself up. I know you won't concede this, but in order to make your position consistent you would have to.

Fighting terrorism isn't based on irrational fear and neither is fighting and trying to reduce police officers shooting innocents.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, she really had no reason to call the police.
So there must have been some other motive instead of rational suspicion.

Like I said, you seem awfully keen on attributing this to malice. I suspect you are certain that this was motivated by racism despite having no evidence for it.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Sivad wrote:It would be even lower than that because at least 90% of those shootings were justified. So really there was less than a one in a million chance of an unprovoked shooting.

Indeed. It's quite amazing how this impression of epidemic police violence has been created over time so that it is now almost conventional wisdom. It might be even worse outside the US since e.g. in Europe most of the media get their information from reputable US publications which perpetuate this. I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if a majority would side with Pod and think that innocent people are shot all the time and that white racist police officers deliberately target and kill minorities.
#14914350
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:innocent people are shot all the time and that white racist police officers deliberately target and kill minorities.

Yeah, yeah … and harass kids, choke unarmed, nonviolent customers, drag minority patrons off planes, etc … It's -*COP CULTURE*- … etc...etc...etc. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Zam
#14914398
Sivad wrote:Given the context of recent events coupled with their attire and demeanor, she had good reason to call the cops. She even told the dispatcher that she wasn't sure, that it was probably nothing, and that it might just be paranoia, so it wasn't malice or racism that prompted the call.


I have already discussed this with you.

You provided no evidence or reason showing that their demeanor or dress were a good reason. Yes, your opinion is that it was a good idea, but I am not here to discuss your opinion.

———————————

Kaiserschmarrn wrote:You said the mother's fear is reasonable considering the historical incident you described. Now you seem to retract that claim and say her fear has nothing to do with the incident. I fully expect you to go back on that in your next response and again claim that her fear is justified because of it. I'm not really trying to make sense of this any longer, as it seems futile, but it's still amusing to follow your ever changing assertions.


Your misunderstanding of what I am arguing is just a misunderstanding, and I am not going back on anything or moving goalposts.

Again, I am trying to explain the context.

Thanks, so you do actually believe that minorities are under siege. Just to get us back on track, that's what I suggested earlier, i.e. that many smart progressives, such are yourself, believe this, despite clear evidence to the contrary, and hence these erroneous beliefs seem to be quite independent of intelligence. Additionally, lots of people probably don't know any better and only get their information from misleading news articles. So to repeat it's probably not surprising that *some* Native Americans are fearful whenever they see a cop and think the next thing the cop will do is shoot them without warning, when in reality the chances of that happening are virtually non-existent.


As long as we agree that if this fear is based on a virtually non-existent happening then the fear that these kids were a danger is based on an even more remote and infrequent fear.

Please note that this is not even an argument in your post. You are simply trying to ridicule people who distrust cops.

I would say that fearing a terrorist attack when you go about your daily business is irrational, because as you say the chances of a person being involved in an attack are extremely low. The same holds for being shot by police and even more so for innocents being shot by police. However, by your logic it is reasonable to be afraid when a Muslims approaches you on the street or enters a plane with you because he may blow himself up. I know you won't concede this, but in order to make your position consistent you would have to.

Fighting terrorism isn't based on irrational fear and neither is fighting and trying to reduce police officers shooting innocents.


So, is it an irrational fear to worry about cops shooting people or not? You seem to be arguing that it is and it is not.

Like I said, you seem awfully keen on attributing this to malice. I suspect you are certain that this was motivated by racism despite having no evidence for it.


And as I said, whatever motives you wish to imagine me for me are completely irrelevant to the debate.

Please note that I said this was probably based on an ignorance of indigenous social mores. She was almost certainly not racist against indigenous peoole, or if she was, this was not her motive. We can deduce this from the fact that she said they were Mexican.
#14914808
Pants-of-dog wrote:Your misunderstanding of what I am arguing is just a misunderstanding, and I am not going back on anything or moving goalposts. Again, I am trying to explain the context.

"Context" here seems to mean bringing up an unrelated event just for the sake of it, at least if you keep your most recent position that you don't think it's a justification for her fear.

Pants-of-dog wrote:As long as we agree that if this fear is based on a virtually non-existent happening then the fear that these kids were a danger is based on an even more remote and infrequent fear.
Please note that this is not even an argument in your post. You are simply trying to ridicule people who distrust cops.

The chances of the two young men being a threat is also virtually non-existent, yes, and the woman acknowledges this on the phone by saying she's probably paranoid and that there's likely nothing wrong. Now would you agree that your earlier statement that police target minorities is probably paranoid and likely untrue? If not, the woman is actually far more rational and reasonable than you are.

As for your second sentence, you are moving goalposts again and now talk about distrust as opposed to fear.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So, is it an irrational fear to worry about cops shooting people or not? You seem to be arguing that it is and it is not.

And you seem to be deliberately obtuse. As individuals should we be afraid every time we are in contact with police? No, we shouldn't and it would be irrational. Should we be concerned that police shootings of innocents are happening and trying to reduce them? Yes, we should and this is not irrational.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And as I said, whatever motives you wish to imagine me for me are completely irrelevant to the debate.

Please note that I said this was probably based on an ignorance of indigenous social mores. She was almost certainly not racist against indigenous peoole, or if she was, this was not her motive. We can deduce this from the fact that she said they were Mexican.

I'm observing that you keep coming back to this after I already acknowledged several posts ago that the woman misjudged the situation. I mean that's trivially true and if you agree with this there is no reason for continuing to speculate about her motives unless you suspect that this wasn't an innocent misunderstanding.
#14914811
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:"Context" here seems to mean bringing up an unrelated event just for the sake of it, at least if you keep your most recent position that you don't think it's a justification for her fear.


Ascribing weird motives to me is not an argument.

Suffice it to say that indigenous experiences with police and government are significantly different from white experiences with police and government.

The chances of the two young men being a threat is also virtually non-existent, yes, and the woman acknowledges this on the phone by saying she's probably paranoid and that there's likely nothing wrong. Now would you agree that your earlier statement that police target minorities is probably paranoid and likely untrue? If not, the woman is actually far more rational and reasonable than you are.

As for your second sentence, you are moving goalposts again and now talk about distrust as opposed to fear.


Whether or not I am rational and reasonable is also not an argument. You seem to be focusing on the feelings of either the mother or myself, instead of the topic.

From a statistical viewpoint, not calling the cops is a safer bet if you are trying to avoid a shooting.

And you seem to be deliberately obtuse. As individuals should we be afraid every time we are in contact with police? No, we shouldn't and it would be irrational. Should we be concerned that police shootings of innocents are happening and trying to reduce them? Yes, we should and this is not irrational.


Again, your opinion of whether or not I am rational is irrelevant.

And to me it seems perfectly rational to be distrustful of armed men who can shoot and kill you with impunity. This is why mothers train their children to deal with cops: so the children do not get shot.

I'm observing that you keep coming back to this after I already acknowledged several posts ago that the woman misjudged the situation. I mean that's trivially true and if you agree with this there is no reason for continuing to speculate about her motives unless you suspect that this wasn't an innocent misunderstanding.


Well, you keep either misunderstanding or ascribing some weird and irrelevant motive to me, so I am trying to explain to you why your musings about me are either incorrect or irrelevant.

If you do not wish to discuss it further, please stop discussing my supposed wish to see malice or racism in things. I agree that there is no reason to continue to speculate about motives.

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