Trump pulls U.S. out of Iranian nuclear deal. Is a war with Iran inevitable? - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14912974
Politiks wrote:
Obama made the move and Iran occupied Syria and is using Syria as a pawn in their pathetic attempt to attack Israel. Truth is, this mess is all on Obama and david Cameron and whoever signed that mess of a deal


Iranian lobbyist wrote:Iran isn't occupying Syria, Iran was invited to Syria.


This is the ME problem in the nutshell. These states are fake nation states without any popular legitimacy, created by European colonial powers, France and Britain, for their own interests. The Sunni majority in Syria will not accept the Shia (Alawites) rule no matter how the Iranian propagandists here will shout otherwise. It's minority rule like White South Africa. At least the Arab world now realises how evil is EU and its cynical manipulation.

The leading Arab and Syrian journalist, Faisal al Qassem

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#14912982
jimjam wrote:Bibi has spoken..............



Netanyahu defeated the commentators

Amnon Lord

Israel is the only country that has felt the severe negative effect of the nuclear agreement. It's called Syria. Iran's threatening expansion and attachment to Syria are the result of the nuclear agreement. In Israel, many in the defense establishment continued to claim that the Iranians were strictly following the agreement. They chose to ignore the result: the billions of dollars that flowed into Iran, international legitimacy, the escape from international pressure and an accelerated penetration into the Middle East, from Yemen to Syria and Lebanon.

The US withdrawal from the agreement, coordinated with Israel, restores the pressure on Iran, which should now decide how to behave in the face of the most severe sanctions and how to act in light of clear threats made by President Trump in his statement. Iran may try to encircle the US through Russia, China and Europe, but the US will pull Europe to its side.

In the United States, Trump's supporters compare the move to resign from President Reagan's 1986 withdrawal from the disarmament talks in Reykjavik with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. They believe that the escalation imposed by Reagan in the arms race caused the collapse of the Soviet Union three years later, and perhaps this is the goal of Trump and Netanyahu vis-a-vis Iran, if this pressure on Iran will bring about a new agreement that will bring about the necessary renovations to the existing agreement, A tremendous achievement.

https://translate.google.co.il/translat ... t=&act=url
#14912989
Noam Chomsky wrote:Nothing can compare with the U.S. “war on terror.”
(This article was orginally published in 2015)

The nuclear deal reached between Iran and P5+1 was greeted with relief and optimism throughout the world, with striking exceptions: the U.S. and its closest regional allies, Israel and Saudi Arabia, which are consumed with visceral fear and hatred of all things Iranian. In the U.S, even sober commentary declares Iran to be “the gravest threat to world peace” and warns that we must be vigilant, given the exceptional gravity of the Iranian threat.

It is perhaps of some interest that the world sees the matter differently: it is the United States that is regarded as the gravest threat to world peace (WIN/Gallup). Far below in second place is Pakistan. Iran is ranked well below, along with Israel, North Korea, and Afghanistan.

It is worthwhile to explore the reasons for the concerns of the rejectionist triad. What exactly is the colossal threat of Iran?

The threat can hardly be military. U.S. intelligence years ago concluded that Iran has low military expenditures by regional standards and that its strategic doctrines are defensive, designed to deter aggression; and that “Iran’s nuclear program and its willingness to keep open the possibility of developing nuclear weapons is a central part of its deterrent strategy.”

Details are provided in an April study of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, which finds that the Arab Gulf States outspend Iran on military weaponry by a factor of almost 10 to 1. The qualitative difference is even greater. The Arab Gulf states have “some of the most advanced and effective weapons in the world [while] Iran has essentially been forced to live in the past, often relying on systems originally delivered at the time of the Shah,” which are virtually obsolete. The imbalance is of course even greater with Israel, which, along with the most advanced U.S. weaponry and its role as a virtual offshore military base of the global superpower, has a huge stock of nuclear weapons.

Nevertheless, there is deep concern about Iran’s aggression. In his letter to Congress to rally support for the deal, President Obama assured them that Washington “would unilaterally maintain economic pressure and deploy military options if needed to deter Iranian aggression,” the NY Times reported. Obama did not give examples of Iranian aggression, but there is one: in 1971, the U.S-backed Shah invaded two islands belonging to the United Arab Emirates, the only case in several hundred years.

Other concerns are Iran’s role as “the world’s leading supporter of terrorism,” primarily its support for Hezbollah and Hamas. Whatever one thinks about them or other beneficiaries of Iranian support, Iran hardly ranks high in support for terrorism worldwide, even within the Muslim world. Among Islamic states, Saudi Arabia is well in the lead as a sponsor of Islamic terror, not only by direct funding wealthy Saudis but even more by the missionary zeal with which the Saudis promulgate their Wahhabi-Salafi version of Islam. ISIS is an extremist offshoot of Saudi religious extremism and its fanning of jihadi flames.

In generation of Islamic terror, however, nothing can compare with the U.S. “war on terror,” which has helped to spread the plague from a small tribal area in Afghanistan-Pakistan to a vast region from West Africa to Southeast Asia. The invasion of Iraq alone escalated terror attacks by a factor of seven in the first year, well beyond even what had been predicted by intelligence agencies. Drone warfare against marginalized and oppressed tribal societies also elicits demands for revenge, as ample evidence indicates. And current plans are to increase drone flights by 50 percent, doubtless increasing the estimated 3000 or more killed.

No serious analyst believes that Iran would ever use a nuclear weapon, thus suffering instant destruction. There is however real concern that a nuclear weapon might fall into jihadi hands – not from Iran, where the threat is slight, but from U.S. ally Pakistan, where it is very real. Two leading Pakistani nuclear scientists, Pervez Hoodbhoy and Zia Mian, warn that increasing fears of “militants seizing nuclear weapons or materials and unleashing nuclear terrorism [have led to] the creation of a dedicated force of over 20,000 troops to guard nuclear facilities.” Furthermore, this force is not “immune to the problems associated with the units guarding regular military facilities,” which have frequently suffered attacks with “insider help.” In brief, the problem is real, and largely ignored, displaced by fevered fantasies concocted for other reasons.

Do Iranian leaders intend to develop nuclear weapons? Evidence is lacking today, but that they had such intentions in the past was asserted openly on the highest authority, which declared that Iran would develop nuclear weapons “certainly, and sooner than one thinks.” The father of Iran’s nuclear energy program and former head of Iran’s Atomic Energy Organization was confident that the leadership’s plan “was to build a nuclear bomb.” A CIA report also had “no doubt” that Iran would develop nuclear weapons if neighboring countries did (as they have).

All of this was under the Shah, the highest authority just quoted. That is, during the period when high U.S. officials – Cheney, Rumsfeld, Kissinger and others -- were urging the Shah to proceed with nuclear programs, and pressuring universities to accommodate these efforts. My own university, MIT, arranged to admit Iranian students to the nuclear engineering program over the very strong objections of the student body, but with comparably strong faculty support.

Opponents of the nuclear deal charge that it did not go far enough to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons. Some supporters agree that there should be additional measures, holding that “the whole of the Middle East must rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.” The author of these words, Iran’s Minister of Foreign Affairs Javad Zarif, adds that “Iran, in its national capacity and as current chairman of the Non-Aligned Movement, is prepared to work with the international community to achieve these goals.”

Minister Zarif was referring to the regular 5-year NPT review conference, which ended in failure in April when the U.S. once again blocked the efforts to move towards a WMD-free zone in the Middle East (joined this time by Canada and Britain), as Obama had in 2010.

A nuclear weapons-free zone in the Middle East is a straightforward way to address whatever threat Iran’s nuclear programs allegedly poses. And as these comments make clear, a great deal more is at stake in Washington’s continuing sabotage of the effort, protecting its Israeli client. This is not the only case when opportunities to end the alleged Iranian threat have been undermined by Washington, raising further questions about just what is actually at stake.

What then is the real threat of Iran that inspires such fear and fury? Recall the analysis of U.S. intelligence that Iran’s nuclear programs (with no effort to produce bombs, as far as intelligence can determine) are “a central part of its deterrent strategy.”

Who would be concerned by an Iranian deterrent? The answer is plain: the rogue states that rampage in the region. Far in the lead in this regard are the rejectionist triad. That is too obvious to review in the case of the U.S. and Israel. Saudi Arabia is joining the club with its invasion of Bahrain to suppress a reform movement there and now its murderous assault on Yemen, accelerating the humanitarian catastrophe there

For the United States, the characterization as a rogue state is familiar. Fifteen years ago, Samuel Huntington warned in Foreign Affairs that for much of the world the U.S. is “becoming the rogue superpower,” considered “the single greatest external threat to their societies.” His words were echoed shortly after by the president of the American Political Science Association, Robert Jervis, who observed that “In the eyes of much of the world, in fact, the prime rogue state today is the United States.” As we have seen, global opinion supports this judgment today by a substantial margin.

Furthermore, the mantle is worn with pride. That is the clear meaning of the insistence of the leadership and the political class, in media and commentary, that the U.S. reserves the right to resort to force if it determines, unilaterally, that Iran is violating some commitment. It is also a long-standing official stand of liberal Democrats, for example the Clinton Doctrine that the U.S. is entitled to resort to “unilateral use of military power” even for such purposes as to ensure “uninhibited access to key markets, energy supplies and strategic resources,” let alone alleged “security” or “humanitarian” concerns.

In his letter to Congress, cited earlier, Obama reiterated the doctrine that the U.S. will use force, unilaterally, as it chooses. And the doctrine is accepted with such unanimity that it elicited no comment. The same was true when Obama declares that the alternative to the nuclear agreement is war – meaning an attack by the U.S. or Israel. Who else contemplates such actions – in fact openly declares the intention to carry them out, if it chooses?
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/conte ... _0003.html
#14913004
jimjam wrote:Why not renew the deal without US participation? Let's simply ignore the lying windbag in the White House.

They probably will. And maybe get used to "without US participation". It isn't like we live in an international community and economy or something.
#14913017
Zagadka wrote:They probably will. And maybe get used to "without US participation". It isn't like we live in an international community and economy or something.


Since it's an existential interest of the Arab Sunni world, they can boycott the firms that breach the sanctions, in the end of the road it can break the EU which is quite ironic. The EC (as common foreign policy) was born in 1973 follow the oil boycott as ally of the Arab world. Now they stand with Iran (Shia) against the same Arab (Sunni) world. Seeing how the British in this thread are blowing their German masters' horn is amusing.
#14913018
Google translate

Europe then and now: the failure of appeasement

Spoiler: show
Europe then and now: the failure of appeasement

Eldad Beck

The great symbolism is that precisely on the 73rd anniversary of the end of World War II and the defeat of Nazi Germany, Europe found itself biting its nails in a tense and nervous wait for an American president's decision on the future of the nuclear agreement with Iran. The Islamic Republic of Iran is still far from being compared to Nazi Germany - although certain parallel lines can be found between the messianic-destructive ideology that is being guided by certain elements of the regime in Tehran and the Nazi ideology. However, the obvious historical comparison concerns Europe's conduct vis-à-vis concrete threats to world peace: then and now, appeasement and the desire to find a political solution at any cost, to avoid a military confrontation that would require Europeans to pay for principles, led to disasters. Then and now, it was the US that saved the West from total collapse.

It was strange to hear French President Emmanuel Macaron, British Foreign Minister Boris Johnson and even Luxembourg's foreign minister warning of a new Middle East war that would threaten Europe if President Trump decided to renew the sanctions against Iran, - as their warnings, to the collapse of the nuclear agreement with Iran. Is it conceivable that the advisers of those who warn at the gate have forgotten to update them that such a war involving Iran has been raging for a number of years - in Iraq, Syria and Yemen, and its implications for Europe? Or do these advisers whisper to the heads of European administrations future scenarios of terror, as they want to divert attention from the failure of the Iranian concept they developed and nurtured?

One of the main reasons for signing the nuclear agreement with Iran was the desire to strengthen the "moderate elements" in the Iranian regime, headed by President Rowhani, to give them a great political achievement, to remove the global isolation ring and to release funds to rehabilitate Iran's economy, Of the "extremist elements" on Iran. Europe - the foreign ministry of the European Union Commission in Brussels and governments in the major capitals pushed the nuclear agreement out of the belief that it would allow an internal change in Iran that would lead to the replacement of the regime (if not to its downfall) and the subsequent concession by Tehran's other government to renounce Iran's nuclear programs.

In this context, it is important to note that over the past few years many European elements have also tried to promote understanding of Iran's efforts to achieve nuclear independence, particularly nuclear weapons. One reason for this was the American military presence threatening Iran's borders. Another time, Iran's advocates of honesty were accused of Israel's military and ostensibly military power. It was very clear to the Europeans that Iran did not need a nuclear program to supply electricity to the homes of Iranians. In this respect, the exposure of the Iranian nuclear archive to Israel has indeed not taught the Europeans anything new. They were prepared to accept Iran with a nuclear bomb, without realizing that the implications of Iran's atomic program go far beyond an existential threat to Israel. This is the nature of European appeasement: ostrich policy. Bury your head in the sand, and forget that your body is exposed to predators. When the Europeans signed the nuclear agreement, they knew full well that a decade after the document was signed, Iran could quickly develop nuclear bombs that would threaten them. The years that have elapsed have not created the impression that Iran is moving toward an internal revolution that will, in the near future, shelve its nuclear programs. On the contrary, under the auspices of the nuclear agreement, knowing that it enjoyed full European backing for maintaining the validity of the agreement, the Iranians conducted aggressive colonialist expansionist policies throughout the Middle East. It is not about safeguarding the interests of the Shiite populations in countries with a Sunni majority, but about taking over entire Middle Eastern countries in Iran. Here, too, the Europeans found a very conciliatory approach. Their view was that Iran was a "moderate" partner in the struggle against the extremist Sunni terrorist organizations, while turning a blind eye to Iran's relations with Hizballah and Hamas. After all, these organizations only threaten Israel. Instead of a nuclear agreement that would restrain Iran, it allowed it to run wild as it pleased.

Trump puts the Europeans in their place. The Europeans' fears, which have not yet faded, from the consequences of a "war of tariffs" that the American president is still waving like a Democles sword over the heads of Europeans are perhaps the best proof that the Europeans will not rush to break with Washington - for the same reason they are courting Iran: economics. Trump rejected a few days ago, not coincidentally, his decision on the imposition of taxes on imports of metal and aluminium from Europe. Such a decision, which could seriously hurt some European economies, was postponed until June, probably to ensure relatively calm European responses to the decision on the nuclear deal with Iran.

Moreover, Trump gave the Europeans an opportunity to work towards a complementary agreement with the Iranians, which would take care of all the holes in the nuclear agreement. It was clear to all sides that the four months Strump had spent on such negotiations would not be enough. It was clear to all sides that Iran would stand on its hind legs in its opposition to any supplementary agreement. In retrospect, Trump's tactics have so far borne fruit: London, Paris and Berlin now openly admit that the nuclear agreement is a "bad agreement" and are mobilized to achieve a complementary agreement or impose sanctions on Iran if it remains in its refusal. Even the European "foreign minister", Federica Mugrini, who said that the agreement with Iran was the "baby" of her ministry, admits today that for the Europeans, the nuclear deal is not based on training in Iran. And the Iranians themselves are already making less stringent chants about an American withdrawal from the nuclear agreement.

It remains to be seen whether the Europeans will finally be able to formulate a realistic worldview and join the United States in exerting pressure on Iran to achieve a comprehensive agreement to replace the Vienna Agreement, the failed nuclear agreement. Common Western pressure could change the rules of the game. But the past teaches us that Europeans will prefer to stick to their appeasement.
#14913025
jimjam wrote:Why not renew the deal without US participation? Let's simply ignore the lying windbag in the White House.


The Europeans, the Russians and the Chinese have all said they would hold onto the deal. In Europe, there are also plans to protect companies from US punishment. That may work in some cases, but won't be enough to protect big companies with a substantial presence in the US.

Trump's newly selected ambassador bluntly told German companies to get out off Iran.

I have always said that our reliance on the US is bad. We have already lost half of our Russian trade because of the sanctions, next Trump is going to hit us with punitive taxes and now we have to sacrifice even more trade and pay more for fossil fuel imports.

We can easily do without the US. less than 10% of our exports go to the US. That can easily be compensated by new business in Russia, Iran and the rest of the world.

We cannot trust the US in this or any other aspect. Russia is a far more reliable partner.
#14913026
Iranian lawmakers burn US flag, vow response ‘US and Zionists will regret’

TEHRAN, Iran — Iranian lawmakers lit a paper US flag on fire at parliament Wednesday after US President Donald Trump’s nuclear deal pullout, shouting “Death to America!”

Lawmakers held the impromptu demonstration the day after Trump’s decision. They also burned a piece of paper representing the nuclear deal.

The chant “Death to America” long has been used in Iran since its 1979 Islamic Revolution. It also has been common to hear it within parliament.
]
https://www.timesofisrael.com/iranian-l ... o-america/
(there is a video in the article)

No Israelis or Americans wee hurt during the filming of this video.
#14913029
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European powers say they are committed to the Iran nuclear deal, after President Donald Trump announced the US was withdrawing from the agreement.
The UK, France and Germany urged the US not to obstruct its implementation.
They said they would work with the other signatories to the 2015 deal - Russia and China - which have stressed continuing support for the accord.
In response, Iran said it would restart uranium enrichment, if the agreement could not be salvaged.

BBC
#14913032



Voices critical of President Donald Trump's decision to withdraw the United States from the Iran nuclear deal outnumbered those supportive of the move by a six-to-one margin on CNN on Tuesday.
On a segment hosted by Wolf Blitzer, CNN host Christiane Amanpour said she was struck by the sight of White House National Security Adviser John Bolton standing at the door as Trump exited the room following his announcement to withdraw from the nuclear deal.
"Look, this is the regime change crew," she said. "They're back in town. They are ascendant."
Amanpour also said it was "incredibly difficult" to understand how pulling out of the agreement makes the U.S. safer.
"It is incredibly difficult to try to fathom that sitting from here," she said. "All those things that he laid out about the danger of Iran, about his regional ambitions about supporting terrorism and the like, how does pulling out of one deal that constrains—and it does, no matter what the president says—the deal constrains Iran's nuclear program, so how does pulling out of it make you safe while you are trying to deal with all the other things when you have no Plan B?"
CNN reporter Dana Bash relayed a text she received from a European diplomat calling Trump's announcement a "disaster," and CNN reporter Jim Sciutto took exception to several of Trump's statements, including the idea that Iran would want to sit down and renegotiate a new agreement.
CNN analyst Gloria Borger asked Washington Post reporter Jason Rezaian whether Trump's decision was a "propaganda win" for the Iranians, and he said it was. He said he did not see a way out now for the five Americans currently being held by Iran.
"These people are going to get lost in the shuffle, unfortunately," he said.
Rezaian added there would be significant disappointment among the Iranian people at the U.S. exiting the deal and reimposing potentially crippling sanctions on Iran's economy.
Rezaian, the Post‘s former Tehran bureau chief, was imprisoned in horrific conditions for 18 months by Iran for unproven espionage charges starting in 2014. He was released in 2016.
Former Deputy Secretary of State Tony Blinken, who was in office during the Obama administration when the Iran deal was inked in 2015, said Trump had given a "gift to the hardliners" in Iran. It was reminiscent of remarks then-President Barack Obama made in 2015 about Republicans opposed to the agreement, saying they had "common cause" with Iranian hardliners.
"Whatever leverage we had, the president just destroyed it by blowing up international unity," Blinken said. "There is going to be profound disunity not just with the Europeans, but with the Russians, the Chinese, countries from around the world that buy oil from Iran."
Former Trump campaign strategist David Urban was the lone voice on the panel who did not express negativity about the decision, asking what European allies had done to curtail Iran's terrorist proxies.
"We waited and waited, just hoping and wishing something was going to happen. It didn't happen. I think now something will happen," Urban said.
CNN analyst David Gregory took an even-handed approach.
"One of the big challenges for the president is exactly on this point, which is why not use what coalition we have to target the bad actions, the support for terrorism, the destabilizing of the area, maybe he loses an opportunity to do that now, and that is a significant challenge," he said.
Gregory added, however, that observers should not take it as a fact that because there has been a disruption, the Europeans will not do business with the U.S.
"The Europeans do lots of things that are not on the side of the United States … Maybe a tougher line needs to be taken with them, and maybe something else could be constructed, or maybe not," Gregory said. "I'm saying this is hard, and I think there is an establishment reaction to this saying, ‘Wait a minute, he has broken some China here, and only a disaster follows.'


http://freebeacon.com/national-security ... rters-6-1/
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