Trump pulls U.S. out of Iranian nuclear deal. Is a war with Iran inevitable? - Page 14 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14917209
Godstud wrote:The only difference is that the USA kills MORE, and has less American soldiers lost. That's the ONLY difference.

America can burn for all I care. Iran's correct in not dealing with USA. USA breaks deals and treaties all the time now, so the USA is dishonest, dishonourable, and unreliable. The world is learning this, as well. This bodes ill for America's "domination".


Time will tell, but I believe you have it backwards. The US was declining under the current conditions. Trump’s policy is reversing it and making the US stronger. Again, this has nothing to do with being ‘dishonest, dishonorable, etc.’ Well it does, but it is irrelevant. Playing ‘the Good Samaritan’ became a losing game for the US economically. Only blind idealists would accept honorable decline over renewed strength.
#14917216
How? Just because someone is upset does not mean it is the wrong path. China just signed a new trade deal. It looks like all the corporations are pulling out of Iran just like Trump demanded. He seems to be getting his way. How is this bad for the US? Any changes in US/EU relations were going to happen anyway. They are ideologically opposed. The idea we need to do things their way to be friends is simply saying they wanted a liberal US President. It is doublespeak. One or the other must soften their ideology for our relationship to remain the same.
#14917217
Talking about proxy war. Mike Pompeo noted Iran's military activities in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and the Palestinian territories that accelerated in recent years, fueled by an influx of cash provided by the nuclear deal, known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA.. The violence along the Gaza fence is an Iranian mission too. Today, Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas, boasts how good his ties are with Hezbollah and Soleimani from the Iranian Quds Force.



Mike Pompeo: U.S. to hit Iran with 'strongest sanctions in history'

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 628152002/
Pompeo noted Iran's military activities in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and the Palestinian territories that accelerated in recent years, fueled by an influx of cash provided by the nuclear deal, known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA.

"Iran advanced its march across the Middle East during the JCPOA," Pompeo said.

He said Iran would have to stop its "malign activities in the region" before the sanctions could be lifted.

"Today, we ask the Iranian people: Is this what you want your country to be known for, to be a co-conspirator with Hezbollah, Hamas and al-Qaeda? The United States thinks you deserve better," Pompeo said.
#14917221
@One Degree I forgot what war-mongers Christian Conservatives were. You seem to think that whatever is good for America is good, even if it's murder on a grand scale. Your kind sickens me to my core. Violence in the name of God. USA USA USA... United States of Assholes.
#14917223
Godstud wrote:@One Degree I forgot what war-mongers Christian Conservatives were. You seem to think that whatever is good for America is good, even if it's murder on a grand scale. Your kind sickens me to my core. Violence in the name of God. USA USA USA... United States of Assholes.


I am not really a Christian or a conservative and I am totally against physical violence, even though I am prone to it. This does not prevent me from seeing the world from a view other than through my idealism. You seem to be unable to separate personal idealism from a pragmatic observation. I was doing the latter. You should really be concerned about being ‘sickened’ by other’s comments so often.
#14917224
I agree, you are certainly not a Christian by any definition, but you most certainly are a big C, Conservative.

I am sickened by the people like you who dismiss violence while "claiming" to be against it. If you were truly against it, you wouldn't follow and support your government, and it's President, so blindly. You're perpetuating a lie.

The "my country can do no wrong" people, are the big problem. They make it hard to actually attack the problem, in any way. Blind fools.
#14917227
@Godstud
So fine, we get your point of view.
Except that you are very rude to your fellow posters. They have the right to their point of view without being called "fools".

So what is your comment on Iran involved in a number of direct and proxy conflicts in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, and via support for terror organisations, Israel ?
What is your reaction to Iran threatening to destroy Israel ? (think ballistic missiles)
#14917232
If you want to be a blind fool, then that's a choice you are purposefully making, if you think your country can do no wrong.

What of Israel's threats to Iran? What's of Saudi Arabia's? What of USA's threats? It's not a one way street.

Iran's military is set up as DEFENSE. It is not technologically, or sizably a threat to Israel. Pretending that Iran is going to launch a nuke at Israel is sheer silliness, as this would assure Iran's destruction, as well.

There is a false perception about Iran's aggressiveness, perpetuated by Israel, USA, etc.

The Defensive Dimension of Iran's Military Doctrine: How Would They Fight?

THE THREAT PERCEPTION
Iran is perceived by some analysts and states, such as Saudi Arabia and Israel, as a serious threat to the region. However, it must be kept in mind that Iranian politicians and military decision makers are concerned about both external aggression and separatist movements (from, for example, Azeris, Kurds and Balochis), which can be easily fueled by outsiders.7As far as defense is concerned, Iran's geographical location is disadvantageous; it is bordered by unstable Afghanistan and Pakistan, with borders of 935 and 972 kilometres, respectively. Iranian insecurity is intensified by a sense of alienation, being mainly (about 50 percent) Persians, who have a hostile attitude towards Arabs (and vice versa). Religious factors also play a role. The region is dominated by Sunni Muslims, while Iranians are mainly Shia, perceived by the Sunnis as religious renegades. What is more, Iran has an understandable sense of being surrounded by U.S. allies — Turkey, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Many neighboring states, mainly Saudi Arabia but also some other GCC member states, spend much more on defense than Iran, which cannot compete with them financially.

MAIN DEFENSE ASSUMPTIONS
After the end of the Iraq-Iran War in 1988, which signaled the failure of the concept of exporting the Islamic Revolution, Iran abandoned its offensive ambitions and adopted a doctrine of deterrence, emphasizing its adherence to defense, though it did not abandon its self-perception as a power and a natural leader in the region. It declared that defense would be uncompromising, determined and oriented toward the destruction of every enemy (in practice, mainly U.S. forces)." If you invade Iran […] we will chase, punish and target and destroy you beyond the country's borderlines," warned Brigadier General Yahya Rahim-Safavi, former commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) (1997-2007) and the supreme leader's military adviser. The IRGC itself added that Iran's military system has become a "reliable and effective deterrent" able to face "arrogant powers" with a "serious and devastating response." The supreme leader's opinion is, unsurprisingly, the same: "We neither welcome, nor begin war, but in case of war, the U.S. will leave disgraced." Obviously, this seems to be a politically driven exaggeration, but Iran could make invasion unprofitable, even if it were not able to defeat an aggressor in an open fight. The scale of armed resistance against American troops or any other occupier might be compared to the Iraqis' resistance after 2003, but on a larger scale. To accomplish this goal, Iran spends approximately 2 percent of its GDP on defense.
https://www.mepc.org/journal/defensive- ... they-fight

The lie about Iran wanting to wipe Israel off the map, is just that.

Then, specialists such as Juan Cole of the University of Michigan and Arash Norouzi of the Mossadegh Project pointed out that the original statement in Persian did not say that Israel should be wiped from the map, but instead that it would collapse.

Cole said this week that in the 1980s Khomeini gave a speech in which he said in Persian “Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” This means, “This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the arena of time.” But then anonymous wire service translators rendered Khomeini as saying that Israel “must be wiped off the face of the map,” which Cole and Nourouzi say is inaccurate.

Ahmadinejad slightly misquoted Khomeini, substituting “safheh-i ruzgar,” or “page of time" for "sahneh-i ruzgar" or “arena of time.” But in any case, the old translation was dug up and used again by the Iranian news agency, Cole says. In fact, that’s how it was presented for years on Ahmadinejad’s English-language Web site, as the Times noted in a somewhat defensive article on the translation debate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fa ... 44446a1b43

So just how much of a threat IS Iran, really?
#14917239
Godstud wrote:So just how much of a threat IS Iran, really?


That was a nice copy/paste operation.

Unfortunately your text did not explain why Iran is actively involved in wars in Yemen, Syria, and influences uprisings in Bahrain, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.
It also does not explain the weapons and money sent to Hezbollah and Hamas.
To name just a few.
Iran is behind a number of terrorist atrocities, some of them via its proxy Hezbollah, and some direct.

Iran should mend its ways or it risks a war.
The way things are evolving, I personally am pretty sure war will break out.
#14917241
Ter wrote:Unfortunately your text did not explain why Iran is actively involved in wars in Yemen, Syria, and influences uprisings in Bahrain, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.
Why is USA and it's allies involved in these ? Or is that a question you don't want to answer? I can see Iran doing so as strictly a foil against Israel, Saudi Arabia and USA.

Ter wrote:Iran is behind a number of terrorist atrocities, some of them via its proxy Hezbollah, and some direct.
As is the USA, if you want to go there. I know Americans don't think drones count as terrorist tools of the state, but they are.
#14917247
Godstud wrote:Why is USA and it's allies involved in these ? Or is that a question you don't want to answer? I can see Iran doing so as strictly a foil against Israel, Saudi Arabia and USA.

Let's not get embroiled in a "who did what first".
Iran is not in a position to counter the USA and its allies.
By trying to project power in the region, it risks a war and will only have itself to blame.
Iran has meanwhile become a threat to Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, Egypt and Israel.

I understand you side with Iran in this conflict, which is sad because I cannot imagine that the values of backward Islam as practised by the Ayatollahs could have an appeal to a Westerner like you. You seem to forget that gay people have been hanged in Iran.
#14917250
:lol: And you side with an Apartheid state, an Imperalist superpower without morality, and a Wahabist state(which also kills homosexuals). Don't preach to me about morality.

Iran wouldn't where it is now, were it not for USA, and it's shit allies meddling with it on a constant basis. You'll pardon me if I find it ironic. This is what USA and it's allies wanted. They wanted reasons to invade and kill people. They're getting them, no matter what they have to do to get there.
#14917252
@One Degree I forgot what war-mongers Christian Conservatives were. You seem to think that whatever is good for America is good, even if it's murder on a grand scale. Your kind sickens me to my core. Violence in the name of God. USA USA USA... United States of Assholes.


They are already at war all over the place. Trump is trying to stop it

Image
#14917253
Godstud wrote: They wanted reasons to invade and kill people. They're getting them, no matter what they have to do to get there.

Even if that were the case, Iran is providing plenty of reasons.
Your constant siding with Islam against the West is beginning to look suspicious as if you have joined the religion of peace.
Let's just sit back and look at the fireworks that will start soon.
#14917255
:lol: Your constant defense of anything the USA does(right or wrong), reminds me of the people who supported the Nazis. Have you become one?

Do you have an argument besides the ones that state that Iran wants to nuke Israel(false), or that Iran wants nukes(so it can defend itself against Saudi Arabia, USA, and Israel- as if that's a bad thing)?
#14917272
Godwin was just invoked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law


Meanwhile I really dont see how the "trade deal" China and the US just signed are actually any kind of progress for the USA. It sounds more like a total disaster.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/us/p ... china.html

By the time American negotiators wrapped up high-level talks with a visiting Chinese delegation last week, President Trump’s ambitions for a multibillion-dollar trade agreement had, for the time being, shriveled into a blandly worded communiqué without any dollar figures.
#14917353
Ter wrote:Let's see where they will get hit next (except for the economic sanctions)

That hit is probably going to be internal.

I did tell this forum (not so long ago) that, the EU (and other sanctioners) would come around to the US POV given a little time. -and- that internal protests would pressure the Iranians into recalling IRG forces (not yet but it's coming as protests expand). I've also said that Iran needs a military distraction.

After a little thought, I expect Iraq will be the target. It's fairly obvious. Iran has easy access and there are still significant Shia Militias active there with existing ties to Iran. Insert a few IRGs with modern soviet light weapons and they will overwhelm Iraqi government forces. It will of course provoke a coalition response that will stop any Iranian advance. But western forces will likely remain defensive and reluctant to extend their maneuvers / airstrikes into Iran proper.

This will leave the Russians in Syria exposed and responsible for dealing with renewed rebel incursions. The territorial maps in Syria should be expected to change radically. It should also remove pressure on the Saudi Arabians in Yemen and they may make progress there. The threat against Israel will be relieved and Hezbollah in Lebanon will become vulnerable.

Things will look pretty good everywhere except in North Eastern Iraq.

We'll see.

Image

Zam :smokin:
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