[Kaiserschmarrn]

Yes and no. Depression, once it takes hold, is a chemical imbalance. A real thing. Not a figment of the imagination. Antidepressants work to put the chemicals back in balance. My wife suffers from depression. Her first husband treated her like shit for 20 years thereby giving depression a good home. If it were not for antidepressants, she would be hospitalized … or dead.

But I also agree with you. Drugs can be way over used.

I think the chemical imbalance idea has turned out not to be true, but it's without a doubt organic/physical, albeit also dependent on input/environment.

I always get irritated when people so easily dismiss drugs. The problem with the moderate average effectiveness is most likely underlying heterogeneity. As you say, drugs can and are life savers for people, and that's true for other mental health conditions as well.

I am no expert in the matter of suicide but I would like to add a couple of thoughts here.

Except for people with terminal disease and in great pain, there are a lot of older people in their fifties and sixties who contemplate old age and prefer not to experience it.
Many if not most older people have health issues which grow worse with time. There are conditions with pain, others need special diets, lots of medicines, reduced independence, less choices, less physical fitness, less enjoyment of life, and so on.

For some, the lack of family and friends is sad, and for some, financial concerns are part of retirement. The children are gone their own way, the retirement pension does not allow the same standard of life that one is used to.

Add to that the feeling of being useless. People used to have a professional life, responsibilities, and now there is nothing to look forward to. Except maybe once in a while seeing the grand children, if any. And often one hears of friends and family members who get sick and die.

Not a rosy picture, but for many, this is reality.

Not sure how true this is. I've recently seen a survey where old people turned out to be the happiest of all age groups.

[Political Interest]

I cannot comment on this with any authority. It might have something to do with the general sense of drudgery and decline. In Asia there are new buildings everywhere and there is a feeling that everything is moving forward. In the UK it feels like time stopped moving 40 years ago. People are very cynical and have quite a negative outlook on life. And it is a very strong feeling that a person cannot change anything in their life. "Just get on with it," is a phrase you hear and while life must continue in spite of harship this attitude is one that ignores problems. "I cannot do anything, I better just get on with it."

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Would be interesting to break this down by age group and demographics. I'm presuming that it's mostly men, as this has been so historically.

UK suicide rate is quite low as far as I know, @Political Interest.



Graph from this article, which also makes the argument that the US suicide rate may be in part driven by gun ownership.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

The OP said that the rate of suicide was going up very fast in developed nations.

Someone tried to divert the discussion by pointing out that the rates in the developed world are not that high, only 2 nations are in the top 20 nations.

The question asked was why is the rate going up *now* in developed nations?

No, the question is "is the rate actually going up *now* in developed nations?" That was just asserted without evidence in the OP.

In the UK, the suicide rate dropped from 14.7 per 100,000 in 1981 to 10.4 in 2016. It's been somewhere around that 10.4 level since about 2002.

In Japan, suicides reached a 22 year low in 2016.

Suicide rates dropped in Germany between 1990 and 2010.

There may be other countries than the USA in which the rate is "going up very fast", but it doesn't seem like a general pattern.

[jimjam]

I think the chemical imbalance idea has turned out not to be true, but it's without a doubt organic/physical, albeit also dependent on input/environment.

In lieu of anti depressant medications what would you recommend in the organic/physical, input/environment area for someone who has suffered with depression for 30 or more years?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

In lieu of anti depressant medications what would you recommend in the organic/physical, input/environment area for someone who has suffered with depression for 30 or more years?

Sorry, I didn't want to give the impression that I have expertise in or can recommend alternative treatments, but wanted to affirm your point that this is real and not something people have control over. The chemical imbalance in the brain idea was based on the way SSRIs function, but it might not be the levels of serotonin that these drugs correct that make them effective, but they might be acting on something else and they don't work for everybody. We also know that hypothyroidism, neurological and immune diseases, and other illnesses can cause depressive symptoms, making the picture even more complicated and heterogeneous. Wish I could help, but I don't have any suggestions other than perhaps what I posted about experimental treatments in your thread about depression.

[jimjam]

Sorry, I didn't want to give the impression that I have expertise in or can recommend alternative treatments, but wanted to affirm your point that this is real and not something people have control over. The chemical imbalance in the brain idea was based on the way SSRIs function, but it might not be the levels of serotonin that these drugs correct that make them effective, but they might be acting on something else and they don't work for everybody. We also know that hypothyroidism, neurological and immune diseases, and other illnesses can cause depressive symptoms, making the picture even more complicated and heterogeneous. Wish I could help, but I don't have any suggestions other than perhaps what I posted about experimental treatments in your thread about depression.

Thank you. There is no magic bullet for this invisible horror. But ….. I try not to leave a stone unturned.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

Since we have seen that the primary claim of the OP is wrong - that suicide is getting generally worse in developed nations - I thought it worth checking another claim, that suicide is worse in the richer countries. A post already pointed out that the OP's own link didn't think this true, but I thought it worth checking with stats.

Here is a log plot of GDP per capita (PPP rates) on the X axis vs. age-standardized suicide rates for 175 countries, from the World Bank and WHO respectively.



You can see there's no significant trend there, but the rate goes slightly down as GDP goes up.

The lesson here is: don't take a poster's word without evidence. They may be making things up.

[Steve_American]

No, the question is "is the rate actually going up *now* [PC your idea of when is 'now' is strange, in Germany 'now' ended in 2010] in developed nations?" That was just asserted without evidence in the OP.

In the UK, the suicide rate dropped from 14.7 per 100,000 in 1981 to 10.4 in 2016. It's been somewhere around that 10.4 level since about 2002.

In Japan, suicides reached a 22 year low in 2016.

Suicide rates dropped in Germany between 1990 and 2010.

There may be other countries than the USA in which the rate is "going up very fast", but it doesn't seem like a general pattern.

I beg to differ with you PC.
The graph you provided didn't support your claim.
1st, it ends about 2014. The OP claim might be talking about a more recent trend.
2nd, 5 of the 7 nations that are on the graph do in fact show the trend going up recently.
. . a] Britain starting in 2007.
. . b] Netherlands starting in 2007.
. . c] Germany starting in 2009 and confirmed starting in 2012.
. . d] Sweden starting in 2011.
. . e] US starting in 2000.
. . f] France ends its data in 2011, so who knows about recently.
. . g] Belgium ends its data in 2012, so who knows.

Even your data for Japan ends in 2016. So, Japan *may* as you say be an exception.

I'm not saying the OP is right or wrong; I'm only saying that your graph doesn't show what you said it shows.

- - - - - - - - - - -
But, the up ticks seem to cluster at 2000 and 2007/8. Those years saw the start of 2 different recessions.
So, my theory that despair caused by economic conditions aggravated by inequality may be a very important part of the reason.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

The graph and quotes are the easily available data that I found. The OP doesn't bother defining 'now' either, and nor did you. Neither the OP nor you bothered finding any data beyond the US rate from 1999 to recently. Over that period, the only other country that shows anything that might be called "very fast" is the Netherlands. If you think there was a sudden change in the last year or two in any country, you need to show this rather than saying "let's pretend it shot up in 2016, and then think what that would mean if it were true".

There is noise in the graph, and your 'upticks' are just part of that. But all end on it at, or below, the rate they were at 15 years ago, apart from the USA and Netherlands.

[Potemkin]

The suicide rate in the Netherlands is disturbingly low....

[Albert]

Potemkin calm down
Just take a deep breath, everything is fine.

[Potemkin]

Thanks for the support, Albert. Whenever the continued existence of Dutch people on this Earth gets me down, I'll know that you're out there giving me moral support.

[Rugoz]

@Prosthetic Conscience

Thanks for addressing the OP's bullshit.

Let's look at another one of his claims:

People are alienated, have high-time preferences (impulsive tendencies), are decadent, have no sense of ultimate purpose/worth, and lack any sense of authenticity.

Here's the result from a frequently cited paper I found. Below is the percentage of participants who choose to wait for a higher monetary reward (adjusted for GDP per capita) grouped by cultural origin.



Results by country:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1439#t0010

The regression shows that a higher GDP per capita increases the tendency to wait (controlled for other factors, including culture dummies):
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1439#t0015

[Kaiserschmarrn]

^ That doesn't show how it's developed over time though.

[Albert]

Thanks for the support, Albert. Whenever the continued existence of Dutch people on this Earth gets me down, I'll know that you're out there giving me moral support.

I know sometimes you get the feeling like you want a whole nation of people to disappear, but have you ever asked the lord for answers? You know he never fails and provides the truth.

[Potemkin]

I know sometimes you get the feeling like you want a whole nation of people to disappear, but have you ever asked the lord for answers? You know he never fails and provides the truth.

I believe that Global Warming is the answer to a tormented humanity's prayers, Albert. It will solve the Dutch Problem in the only way it was meant to be solved....

[Victoribus Spolia]

For those who have felt the need to attack the OP stupidly, I give this response:

My point was, and remains, that developed nations have an overrall higher suicide rate and I have only ever meant it in this sense:

That wealthier nations are far more likely to have a higher suicide rate than poorer and less developed countries.

From the world statistics link in the OP, I will put the "developed nations" in bold and then give my analysis at the end of the post.

It seems these clarifications are needed given that the substantive claim of the OP is being challenged.

Country Crude Suicide Rate Rank

Sri Lanka 35.3 suicides per 100k 1
Lithuania 32.7 suicides per 100k 2
Guyana 29 suicides per 100k 3
South Korea 28.3 suicides per 100k 4
Mongolia 28.3 suicides per 100k 5
Kazakhstan 27.5 suicides per 100k 6
Suriname 26.6 suicides per 100k 7
Belarus 22.8 suicides per 100k 8
Equatorial Guinea 22.6 suicides per 100k 9
Poland 22.3 suicides per 100k 10
Latvia 21.7 suicides per 100k 11
Hungary 21.6 suicides per 100k 12
Slovenia 21.4 suicides per 100k 13
Angola 20.5 suicides per 100k 14
Belgium 20.5 suicides per 100k 15
Russia 20.1 suicides per 100k 16
Ukraine 20.1 suicides per 100k 17
Japan 19.7 suicides per 100k 18
Estonia 18.9 suicides per 100k 19
Bolivia 18.7 suicides per 100k 20
Croatia 17.5 suicides per 100k 21
Central African Republic 17.4 suicides per 100k 22
Uruguay 17 suicides per 100k 23
Serbia 17 suicides per 100k 24
France 16.9 suicides per 100k 25
Austria 16.4 suicides per 100k 26
Finland 16.3 suicides per 100k 27
Thailand 16 suicides per 100k 28
Bulgaria 15.9 suicides per 100k 29
India 15.7 suicides per 100k 30
Sweden 15.4 suicides per 100k 32
Sierra Leone 15.4 suicides per 100k 31
Switzerland 15.1 suicides per 100k 33
Moldova 14.8 suicides per 100k 34
Swaziland 14.7 suicides per 100k 35
Trinidad And Tobago 14.6 suicides per 100k 36
Kiribati 14.3 suicides per 100k 37
United States 14.3 suicides per 100k 38
Argentina 14.2 suicides per 100k 39
Cuba 14.1 suicides per 100k 40
Portugal 13.7 suicides per 100k 41
Germany 13.4 suicides per 100k 42
Iceland 13.1 suicides per 100k 43
New Zealand 12.6 suicides per 100k 44
Slovakia 12.5 suicides per 100k 45
Canada 12.3 suicides per 100k 46
Laos 12.3 suicides per 100k 47
Denmark 12.3 suicides per 100k 48
Cambodia 11.9 suicides per 100k 49
Cameroon 11.9 suicides per 100k 50
Netherlands 11.9 suicides per 100k 51
Australia 11.8 suicides per 100k 52
Romania 11.7 suicides per 100k 55
Bhutan 11.7 suicides per 100k 53
Ireland 11.7 suicides per 100k 54
Haiti 11.2 suicides per 100k 56
El Salvador 11.1 suicides per 100k 57
Luxembourg 11.1 suicides per 100k 58
Montenegro 11 suicides per 100k 59
Norway 10.9 suicides per 100k 61
Gabon 10.9 suicides per 100k 60
South Africa 10.7 suicides per 100k 62
Zimbabwe 10.5 suicides per 100k 63
Lesotho 10.4 suicides per 100k 64
Paraguay 10.3 suicides per 100k 65
Papua New Guinea 10.3 suicides per 100k 66
Sudan 10.2 suicides per 100k 67
China 10 suicides per 100k 69
Turkmenistan 10 suicides per 100k 68
Nigeria 9.9 suicides per 100k 71
Chile 9.9 suicides per 100k 72
Singapore 9.9 suicides per 100k 70

43/70 of the top 70 nations for suicide are developed or in the advanced-developing stages and I italicized Paraguay and Uruguay as moving into that latter category but did not include them.

This means that over 61.43% of the top 70 nations for highest suicide are developed or advanced-developing nations.

However, these nations, as far as development, only represent around 30% of all nations in the world.

Thus, developed or advanced-developing nations are GROSSLY OVER-REPRESENTED in suicide deaths.

Thus, countries that represent only 30% of the whole account for 64% of the top suicide nations.

[Note: If we were to analyze the TOP 50 instead of the top 70, this statistic would be the same.]

Hence, your likely-hood of being suicidal is exponentially higher if you are from a developed or advanced-developing state (Thailand/India/etc) than from a rural third-world state (2-3X higher if I got my math right).



If you are from a dark blue or medium blue state in this map, you are far more likely to be from a higher suicide nation than if you were from a light blue state.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I agree, but while the sort of traditionalism your advocating did ground people and give them identity/purpose/meaning, it was still a form of bondage because a more meaningful way of life is possible.

Bondage? I disagree. It represented and represents the fullest expression of our humanity, our present conditions do not.

Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who’ve ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don’t need. We’re the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War’s a spiritual war… our Great Depression is our lives. We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won’t. And we’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off.

- Tyler Durden

We have gotten lost in a wasteland of postmodernity but turning back is just not an option.

Sure it is, but its not a matter of consciously turning back, that result is inevitable in this sense: The unnatural state in which we find ourselves is untenable and the natural order cannot help but reassert itself. This has happened every-time civilization has decided to raise itself above moral-decency, natural hierarchies, and simple math. Anytime civilizations do such things, they collapse and the people are forced to revert a way of life where moral-decency, natural hierarchy, and simple math are not merely one alternative choice among many (as it is now), but a necessary condition for survival.

That time is coming my friend.

We are not going to rule the stars as a united humanity bound together by technology and a scientific worldview free of religion, we are not going to live in harmony without money, religion, or heirarchy, that is all just science-fiction, a dream we feed with our own collective hubris.

Indeed, we are going back to a religious (albeit superstitious) state, bound to blood and soil, where women return to their natural state as wives and mothers wearing dresses woven from the stained scraps of old jeans and t-shirts supporting their husbands who work horse-drawn plows fabricated from rusty car parts and in the shadow of long abandoned sky scrapers.

Not only because it's antithetical to the human spirit, but also because the foundational tenets which sustained that traditionalist worldview have been completely debunked. There is no way back, we have to press on.

Debunked eh? Try me.

I'd call it a painful state of transition and growth. It's like going through adolescence, it's scary and confusing, many lose their way and despair, some even give up altogether, but those of us who do develop real maturity realize that it was worth the ordeal.

Clever analogy, but wrong. The despair comes from our state of being divorced from the truest expressions of our own humanity.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

@Victoribus Spolia , see the graph here: viewtopic.php?p=14923244#p14923244

Suicide rate goes down slightly with increasing GDP per capita (but there's so much variation you may as well call it level). And if you're going to use India as a "developed nation", then you may as well call the whole world "developed" - India is 122nd out of 187 in the IMF list, 113th out of 175 in the World Bank list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... per_capita

I suspect "However, these nations, as far as development, only represent around 30% of all nations in the world" was just wrong. What did you use to decide which ones to put in bold?