danholo wrote:I don't think it has a "right" to Gaza either but it has a responsibility for the safety of its own citizens and national security, something some people in Gaza want to directly violate for probably good reasons, but with a horrible strategy.
It is quite correct that some people in Gaza want to violate the lives of Israelis, but why would that be? Is it because Israel has stolen lands and homes from over 70% of the population in Gaza? Or is it because Israel has placed them in what amounts to a concentration camp, where they have 2-4 hours of electricity today and their water is poisoned? Where they can't leave their imprisonment or see their family in other parts of Palestine that Israel also military occupies? Tell me, danholo, what is doing more damage to the security of Israelis?
The people of Gaza being imprisoned and oppressed otherwise is what causes Israel's insecurity. You can't imprison and occupy people and assume they will lay down and die, unless you're the type of pussy that would lay down and die if ever denied your rights. I would fight back.
I have understood from international law regarding occupation that Israel, as the occupying power, has responsibility over the well-being and security of Gazans.
This is correct. An occupier is legally responsible for the wellbeing of the people it occupies, something Israel has never done, since it kills Palestinians very regularly and imprisons them and such other else.
In the real world, however, it cannot control them, and ultimately Israel's primary responsibility is for the safety of its own citizens.
Israel has no right to control a people that are not within its borders, borders which Israel to date has yet to define or declare, but that's by the by.
Israel has a responsibility for this whole mess but regarding this instance with Gaza, I really can't point the blame at Israel completely.
That's because you're a tribal person who cares more about maintaining zionist oppression over the dignity and human rights of another people, based on their ethnicity/religion.
As to my 'excuse'. I don't have an excuse. I wasn't alive then. All 'excuses' and reasons can be found within a multitude of historical works written on the subject; The occupation of Gaza didn't happen in a vacuum but was an outcome of the Arab-Israeli conflict fueled by the Cold War in the background.
You don't have an excuse because the notion that Israel is occupying and blockading Gaza "because Hamas" is bullshit; an excuse to place blame on the victims rather than where it ought to be placed: on those doing the occupying and blockading (and incremental
genocide)
As for Gaza, let son of an Israeli General, Miko Peled, explain the history to you:
If that's the conclusion that can be made, I find that quite stringent cherry picking from the mounds of information that comes from that place daily. Israel is probably the most reported place in the world. Gaza is a concentration camp? I'd say that's "fake news"; it's called fake news these days, your can also call it propaganda and misinformation.
I've posted links supporting my position before but I'll post it again. Israel is a concentration/prison camp:
David Cameron: Israeli blockade has turned Gaza Strip into a 'prison camp'Lawrence Weschler: Gaza is a concentration campBlacklisted Academic Norman Finkelstein on Gaza, “the World’s Largest Concentration Camp”Now it's your turn to prove that Gaza being a concentration camp is "fake news".
I don't think it describes the situation properly and diverts attention to the fact that Gaza does have its own influence in the area and is also an accessory in its own demise. You can call it a concentration camp, for sure, if that's ultimately what you want it to be. It doesn't correspond with reality, however.
What influence does Gaza have on itself? As you can see above, it's not just me who calls Gaza a concentration camp. I don't want it to be a concentration camp, I actually want it to NOT be a concentration camp, or prison camp, or however else you might want to describe it. I want Palestinians in Gaza, as well as in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to live in freedom and dignity, with the same type of human rights you and I get to enjoy.
You on the other hand are here to speak on behalf of the government that denies Palestinians these rights, as well as deny their reality of the awful living conditions they suffer. I wonder what type of person can sleep at night, knowing they spend much time fighting for the violent non-right of a government to oppress and kill others. Perhaps you doing so is a cause for some of that anger you experience?
Anti-semites shouldn't get a time of day and should be called out on it. Hamas is it, and you should call them out with the same fierceness as towards Israel.
I agree, anti-semites shouldn't get a time of day, but you're arguing for the one group of anti-semites that are killing Palestinian semites. Hamas on the other hand are a resistance organization, who in recent years are clear about who their enemy is; they do not say Jews, but the
zionist occupation. I can see why zionists love to ignore this. Trying to compare Hamas to Israel is a little bit silly, danholo, we both know Hamas wouldn't exist without Israel existing. And we also know that Hamas wouldn't have got the power it ever did
without Israel pushing for it to do so.
Fortunately I think most people noticed the ploy Hamas was pulling and turned against them. Hamas is a populist movement who is very smart to take advantage and prolong a chaotic situation. Indeed, I guess Israelis could be blamed that Palestinians are eating themselves up like rabid dogs but I'm tired of animal analogies.
Palestinians are not eating themselves up like "rabid dogs" and it appears it's only you that is using animal analogies. But thanks for that insight into your psyche, which displays a dehumanization of the Palestinian people. Of course, you have to have dehumanized them before you can talk like this about them...
Gaza might not be a safe environment but it's not like it's NOT their home and should treat it with respect.
Can you ask Israel to do that instead of sniping to death from outside the prison walls, those who are protesting within the prison, for their human rights?
Your idea of occupation, then, is completely different from mine.
What do
you mean when you say occupation? I go by what international law says, so it's not my definition really.
I mean actually invading Gaza, troops on the ground, eliminating Hamas and all hostile forces, taking control and imposing a puppet government, maintained by the PA with the help of the International Community just to get themselves up from their shit swamp. That's an occupation.
Well Israel does some of the stuff you described. In Operation Protective Edge and Operation Pillar of Defense, Israeli troops went into Gaza. In the former, they had to withdraw because Israeli troops were getting killed in much larger numbers than expected, and you know how much Israel has to avoid that happening. Israel has still been killing Hamas and "hostile forces" it imprisons. It often does though, to provoke a response, in order to justify further killing of Palestinian prisoners inside of Gaza. There is a pattern, forensic scholar Norman Finkelstein has documented in his most recent book
Gaza, as well as elsewhere.
Yet for some reason Israel's relations with its Arab neighbors and the rest of the world is... improving and the KSA is only one example.
Congrats for having good relations with ISIS/Al-Qaeda in state form. Fascist birds of a feather, surely flock together.
These countries are seeing what sort of advancements and innovations Israel creates, and what a robust economy it is.
Yes, that must be it.
The only ones out of the band wagon are Lebanon and Syria, but they are Iranian vassal states, no?
Lebanon and Syria are independent states who refuse to conform to the neoliberal world order, just like Libya and Iraq and Iran, who supports the former two. How exactly is having allies = a vassal state. Is it just because it's a government you don't like? If what you say is true, Saudi Arabia and Israel are vassal states, created by Britain and now run by America.
As the Arab states' economies grow and their quality of life improved, they see this as beneficial and attitudes are changing as people are realizing that Israel is not the Little Devil that it's painted out to by some.
If anything, as time goes on, Israel is seen more and more like a rogue state. You of course know this, because never has there been a time in Israel's 70 years of existence as a borderless state on top of Palestine, where Israel is condemned more, than today. This is increasing even faster, amongst young
Jews in America, over the last 3/4 years. The future is not bright with Israel if people like you continue to justify its crimes, rather than call for it to stop oppressing Palestinians.
Also, my country, despite its harsh criticism towards Israel, has always been a close ally and friend to Israel.
So? A lot of Western governments support Israel. That's not news to anyone. The
people on the other hand, overwhelmingly support freedom for the Palestinians from Israeli occupation and blockade.
Still, since you're so zionist-y here, why don't you make aliya? You know there's some people in Israel who deny your zionism if you can't even walk the walk...
See, everything isn't as it seems, but if you just want to look of photos of barbed wire fences, burning tires and people being rushed to the hospital because they got shot (but not showing what they did prior to being shot), you will get a certain but very constrained view of reality.
People who see images and film of the prison camp Gaza and militarily occupied Palestine otherwise can see for themselves what they see. What you try to tell them to see is just another hasbara tactic that unfortunately doesn't work much anymore, since as I've repeatedly said, ye cannot polish a turd.
Despite your claims otherwise, for some reason the world is not following your line. Seriously, nobody cares about the shitshow that is Gaza and many are just giving up on the Palestinians.
Source? I go to a talks and protests about and for Palestine, try telling people there they don't give a shit about the Palestinians.
Also, try telling politicians within the UK and American government that are beginning to legislate against Israeli torture of Palestinian children.
Try telling all those academics, musicians, engineers, psychologists, teachers, etc.etc.etc. who support the BDS movement that they're "just giving up on the Palestinians". You see the updates in the BDS thread, it's a gift that keeps on giving.
According to you nobody cares, yet here
you are, making long-ass posts about Palestine.
Besieging Gaza does risk violence yes, but it would also risk violence if the blockade was lifted.
Please provide evidence for this thing you imagine that has never happened.
Israel is not going to gamble the safety of its citizens for, what I think is a very naive or misplaced humanitarian agenda.
Why naive? Do Palestinians not deserve the same rights as you or I or what Jews in Palestine get?
I feel for the Palestinians, as they are incidentally our brothers, but they also have a hand in their own misery.
You sure love to blame the victim, while playing victim too. It is notable.
Their leadership has taken them towards a very hopeless road, so Israel can't bare full, if any, responsibility for decisions made by others.
More bullshit. There was never a plan for a two-state solution. Israel wanted the entirety of Palestine and this is what it has got, granted, with about 5/6 million people it doesn't want in the land, but it's too late to kill them outright because the world is watching.
95% of the world consider it actually illegal? If that is the case, if the world goes nuts, don't follow them. Never was into group think, so...
Yes the international community considers the occupations and blockade as war crimes in the form of collective punishment, despite your feelings.
Where is this proof of a consideration and where is the proof that this consideration is fact? Legality is not a matter of opinion generally but I've come to understand that international law seems to be only opinion, so does it have any merit actually? Anyway, opinion is not fact. Sieges / blockades are collective punishment indeed but fortunately a siege in itself is not illegal as long as the reasons for the siege are valid because a siege is a VALID AND LEGAL DEFENSIVE MEASURE!!! Did you know this?
There is no valid reason for Israel to imprison Palestinians in Gaza or military occupy them (occupations are also meant to be temporary, if anything, yet here we are 50 years later with no end in sight of Israel's military occupations).
You appear to suggest there is a valid reason for imprisoning and occupying people. Can you show me any laws or world bodies or human rights orgs that supports this position?
I consider the siege harsh, and the best of all the bad options - but it's still completely legal.
Which law supports it?
The reasons are valid in this case: Gaza is used as a launching ground for hostilities against Israel and Israelis daily. It has been so even before there was a full blown siege.
I'm sure any group who was imprisoned for no other reason than their ethnicity/religion would resist such conditions. You've heard of the Warsaw Ghetto, right? It's comparable to Gaza.
I don't see any good argument why anyone should act differently faced with such hostility and bold statements of how brutally they will murder Jews. Why should Israel gamble with Israeli lives
For the simple reason that: no justice (for Palestinians), no peace (for Israel).
Free Palestine.
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