[SpecialOlympian]

And what is your opinion on the opinion of the five conservative male Justices that it's an undue burden to require "clinics" posing as medical providers that they disclose the fact that they do not offer the medical service they pretend to offer and that they do not employ any medical professionals?

[Doug64]

And what is your opinion on the opinion of the five conservative male Justices that it's an undue burden to require "clinics" posing as medical providers that they disclose the fact that they do not offer the medical service they pretend to offer and that they do not employ any medical professionals?

If they were actually "posing as medical providers" then they can be prosecuted for fraud. But according to what I quoted from the opinion, California denied that that concern was a justification for the law, perhaps because they didn't know of any of the centers' clients that had been deceived?

[Godstud]

Just because you don't know any victims of a scam, that doesn't make it any less of a scam.

[Doug64]

Just because you don't know any victims of a scam, that doesn't make it any less of a scam.

It's the state of California trying to make a case before the Supreme Court that would have needed victims of a scam to justify its law, not me. And a state government has rather more investigative powers than I do to find them.

[Drlee]

It's the state of California trying to make a case before the Supreme Court that would have needed victims of a scam to justify its law, not me. And a state government has rather more investigative powers than I do to find them.

I am sorry that so many conservatives, like you, do not believe in states rights. I believe the SCOTUS should have ignored this case. They did not have a dog in the fight.

[Doug64]

I am sorry that so many conservatives, like you, do not believe in states rights. I believe the SCOTUS should have ignored this case. They did not have a dog in the fight.

How do you get from my post that I don't believe in states rights? Still, while I do believe in states rights I also believe in a variety of the Incorporation Doctrine for the 14th Amendment.

[Drlee]

What you appear to believe in is the last person to do exactly what you want them to do.

California should have the right to regulate business in the state without some weak appeal to interstate commerce. Never fear though. The SCOTUS will be making stupid decisions until long after I am gone.

You are going to just love what they do to your religious freedoms. They will go just as your vote went in Citizen's United and the recent upholding of extreme gerrymandering. I am convinced that if the dems were cutting districts like the republicans are you would be howling. You are going to howl some more when the dems take the Senate and use the same rules that McConnell is using now.

[SpecialOlympian]

If they were actually "posing as medical providers" then they can be prosecuted for fraud. But according to what I quoted from the opinion, California denied that that concern was a justification for the law, perhaps because they didn't know of any of the centers' clients that had been deceived?

Maybe they created the law specifically because they were addressing the root of the problem regarding well-intentioned, yet evil, people attempting to deceive pregnant women.

If someone started selling old white paint dust as baby formula do you have to find a woman whose baby died of poisoning before you pass the law? No, you do the obvious thing and, at a minimum, start having people clearly label their inedible poison as poison.

You can tell it's not an entirely honest opinion (which should be obvious as the opinion was put forth by conservatives, who are incapable of arguing in good faith). California asserted that it has the right to ensure its citizens have access to and knowledge of healthcare. Hence the law: it required that all "clinics" provide the following information: 1) California provides low-cost health and family planning treatments to its citizens and there are several ways for them to obtain it and 2) this office has no medical professionals on staff.

I'm sure those same Justices would gladly approve the same laws which mandate family planning doctors in red states say nonsense such as how an abortion "terminates [the mother's] existing constitutional rights with regards to that relationship [with her fetus]." I'm sure they would manage to do it in an Originalist way too. Because the Strict Constructionist position has never been pure bullshit.

[Doug64]

If someone started selling old white paint dust as baby formula do you have to find a woman whose baby died of poisoning before you pass the law?

And when you are defending the law in court, do you claim that concerns about paint dust being sold as baby formula had nothing to do with why the law was passed? Because according to the opinion that was what California did when defending their law. Obviously, for some reason they thought that wouldn't fly.

[Rich]

Nobody owes economic assistance to mothers. They have an obligation to be responsible just like everyone else.

Nobody is owed resource monopolisation, so called property rights. Libertarians, Communists, Sharia law advocates all have their fantasies of a just law system, but they are just fantasies. The American constitution is a joke and was widely recognised as such when it was written.

Pro abortion advocates should use any means necessary to defend abortion rights until such time a the American right admits it is a joke. I don't have a problem with eighteenth century White people engaging in non White slavery, given the untrammelled barbarism of the non White world at the time. In modern times we have enormous privileges that our White ancestors lacked. I do have a problem with slave owners who declare all men are created equal.

[Suntzu]

Nobody is owed resource monopolisation, so called property rights. Libertarians, Communists, Sharia law advocates all have their fantasies of a just law system, but they are just fantasies. The American constitution is a joke and was widely recognised as such when it was written.

Pro abortion advocates should use any means necessary to defend abortion rights until such time a the American right admits it is a joke. I don't have a problem with eighteenth century White people engaging in non White slavery, given the untrammelled barbarism of the non White world at the time. In modern times we have enormous privileges that our White ancestors lacked. I do have a problem with slave owners who declare all men are created equal.

Abortion laws have little/no effect on the number of abortions.

[Drlee]

Abortion laws have little/no effect on the number of abortions.

I would like to see an unbiased source for this. If true it indites both sides.

[Suntzu]

I would like to see an unbiased source for this. If true it indites both sides.

Hard to nail down numbers on an illegal activity. I saw one number where 900,000 abortion were performed by doctors in the U.S. in 1930. Another figure would be the abortion rate for Mexico where almost all abortion is illegal in a country the is on the order of 95% Catholic.

[SpecialOlympian]

If the number of abortions performed did not change regardless of legality, which I doubt because going to a back alley abortion "doctor" seems like a huge disincentivizing factor, it would be a giant condemnation of anti-abortion laws since it only drives people toward unsafe options.

But obviously Suntzu is not talking out of his butt and all back alley abortions are promptly reported to government record keepers.

[Suntzu]

If the number of abortions performed did not change regardless of legality, which I doubt because going to a back alley abortion "doctor" seems like a huge disincentivizing factor, it would be a giant condemnation of anti-abortion laws since it only drives people toward unsafe options.

But obviously Suntzu is not talking out of his butt and all back alley abortions are promptly reported to government record keepers.

I always though your screen name was especially appropriate.

The Impact of Illegal Abortion

By OBOS Abortion Contributors | March 23, 2014


632



Historically, women around the world have tried to end their unintended pregnancies whether abortion is legal or not, often jeopardizing their safety and health by self-inducing or seeking a dangerous illegal procedure.

While there is very little relationship between abortion legality and abortion incidence, there is a strong correlation between abortion legality and abortion safety.

Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the United States during the 1950s and 1960s range from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the death rate from abortion is extremely low: 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, according to the World Health Organization.

Legalization of abortion allows women to obtain timely abortions, thereby reducing the risk of complications. In 1970, one in four abortions in the United States took place at or after 13 weeks gestation. In 2009, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, almost 92 percent of abortions were performed within the first trimester (64 percent were performed at under eight weeks gestation). Few abortions (7 percent) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3 percent) were performed greater than 21 weeks gestation.

The World Health Organization defines unsafe abortion as a procedure for terminating a pregnancy that is performed by an individual lacking the necessary skills, or in an environment that does not conform to minimal medical standards, or both. Unsafe abortion is common in places where abortion is illegal. Nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, and nearly all unsafe abortions (98 percent) occur in developing countries. In countries where abortion remains unsafe, it is a leading cause of maternal mortality.

Highly restrictive abortion laws are not associated with lower abortion rates. For example, as Guttmacher Institute explains, the abortion rate is 29 per 1,000 women of childbearing age in Africa, and 32 per 1,000 in Latin America — regions in which abortion is illegal under most circumstances in the majority of countries. The rate is 12 per 1,000 in Western Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds.

For more information on efforts to make abortion safe and legal in the United States, see U.S. Abortion History.

[SpecialOlympian]

I always though your screen name was especially appropriate.

The Impact of Illegal Abortion

By OBOS Abortion Contributors | March 23, 2014


632



Historically, women around the world have tried to end their unintended pregnancies whether abortion is legal or not, often jeopardizing their safety and health by self-inducing or seeking a dangerous illegal procedure.

While there is very little relationship between abortion legality and abortion incidence, there is a strong correlation between abortion legality and abortion safety.

Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the United States during the 1950s and 1960s range from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the death rate from abortion is extremely low: 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, according to the World Health Organization.

Legalization of abortion allows women to obtain timely abortions, thereby reducing the risk of complications. In 1970, one in four abortions in the United States took place at or after 13 weeks gestation. In 2009, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, almost 92 percent of abortions were performed within the first trimester (64 percent were performed at under eight weeks gestation). Few abortions (7 percent) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3 percent) were performed greater than 21 weeks gestation.

The World Health Organization defines unsafe abortion as a procedure for terminating a pregnancy that is performed by an individual lacking the necessary skills, or in an environment that does not conform to minimal medical standards, or both. Unsafe abortion is common in places where abortion is illegal. Nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, and nearly all unsafe abortions (98 percent) occur in developing countries. In countries where abortion remains unsafe, it is a leading cause of maternal mortality.

Highly restrictive abortion laws are not associated with lower abortion rates. For example, as Guttmacher Institute explains, the abortion rate is 29 per 1,000 women of childbearing age in Africa, and 32 per 1,000 in Latin America — regions in which abortion is illegal under most circumstances in the majority of countries. The rate is 12 per 1,000 in Western Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds.

For more information on efforts to make abortion safe and legal in the United States, see U.S. Abortion History.

While there is very little relationship between abortion legality and abortion incidence, there is a strong correlation between abortion legality and abortion safety.

Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the United States during the 1950s and 1960s range from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the death rate from abortion is extremely low: 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, according to the World Health Organization.

[Albert]

Are you against estimatating SO?

[SpecialOlympian]

I think the Roman Estimates were the bravest soldiers to ever fight, Albert.

[Doug64]

Here's a link to a compilation of abortion statistics: Historical abortion statistics, United States. The percentage of pregnancies ending in abortion doesn't climb above 1% until 1970 and tops out at 30.3% in 1981. That actually fits the principle that people are more likely to engage in legal and safe(r) activities so no, I'm not buying the 900,000 pre-Roe number.