[layman]

Are the rightful owners traceable?
Why not take all land if it’s all stolen?

I still haven’t seen this addressed because as per previous posts, huge numbers of blacks are descended from settlers too. Only a small number seem to be descended from those stolen from and not all land was occupied when settled by whites.

To me it seems like the usa handing stolen native land to Latinos or blacks.

Just because all blacks were discriminated against and oppressed in apartheid doesn’t mean they are all victims of colonialism or have rights to ancestoral land?

[ThirdTerm]

The Akkerland Boerdery hunting farm is the first farm to be seized by the government after Steenkamp and Cloete rejected the $2.08m offer. They asked for 200 million rand ($20.8m) for their reserve, when they were offered 20m rand ($2.08m) by the South African government. The farm received a valuation of 50m rand in 2011 and they can retrieve 40% of its original market value. I think they should take the money and start a new life in Australia or New Zealand and this is not a bad deal at all.

Johan Steenkamp and Arnold Cloete, co-owners of the Akkerland Boerdery hunting farm in Limpopo province, said they were ordered to hand over their land after talks to buy it at a tenth of the price broke down.

Steenkamp and Cloete asked for 200million rand (£10.7million) for their reserve but were only offered 20million rand (£1.07million).

A letter they received earlier in the year said: 'Notice is hereby given that a terrain inspection will be held on the farms on April 5, 2018 at 10am in order to conduct an audit of the assets and a handover of the farm's keys to the state.'

The farmers have obtained an injunction, which was opposed by the government, to prevent eviction until a court rules on the case.

Mr Steenkamp told Newsweek that the decision to take his land was made on 'very short notice' during a public holiday.

He said he was given notice to hand the keys over to his farm within seven days.

[B0ycey]

There are two issues here.

One is that stolen property does not prevent it being stolen over time. If there is evidence that land belongs to someone else, it is there property similar to why stolen paintings by the Nazis were returned to their Jews owners. Would you compensate Nazis for the lost of value to their former property?

The second is intellectual knowledge of specific farming lands and the consequences of fertile land becoming sterile. You cannot just stick anyone onto a farm and expect them to know how to cultivate that land. Especially in hot climates. Zimbabwe learnt the hard way. At least SA are not expelling all farmers yet so they have given themselves some time to see sense. To me this is very important. More so than justice of historic evils. So my solution to this problem would be more pragmatic. Any sale of the land goes to the former owner before it was stolen or the option to retain that land if the farmer wants to sell. But while the farmer remains there, he pays an additional tax on his profits that goes to the former owner until the land is sold or passed on. Anything else and SA risks becoming a barren wasteland and that is no good (It is actually worse than they current have btw) for the average 'black' South African who does not have any rights to any land.

[fuser]

Are the rightful owners traceable?
Why not take all land if it’s all stolen?

I still haven’t seen this addressed because as per previous posts, huge numbers of blacks are descended from settlers too. Only a small number seem to be descended from those stolen from and not all land was occupied when settled by whites.

To me it seems like the usa handing stolen native land to Latinos or blacks.

Just because all blacks were discriminated against and oppressed in apartheid doesn’t mean they are all victims of colonialism or have rights to ancestoral land?

Oh God!! As I said you guys (who are opposing this) literally have no idea what's going on in actuality preferring the fantasies of some sensationalist newspapers and your own minds. They are literally giving the lands to the previous owners who are traceable, not all whites' land is getting appropriated ffs. Apartheid didn't end centuries ago, its just been 2 decades, rightful owners are still alive and kicking.

Even after this reform, Whites will own disproportionately most lands in SA and people are calling it an apartheid.

If a group steals your land now and 25 years later when you are still alive and the new government wants to give back you your land, what's wrong with it? Don't tell me you will reject this reform as no sane man will. In fact, no sensible person will oppose this reform unless either they are completely ignorant of what's going on or they are indeed just racists, but the ignorance shown on this thread and a previous thread on the same topic is just mind-boggling.

[Rugoz]

Oh God!! As I said you guys (who are opposing this) literally have no idea what's going on in actuality preferring the fantasies of some sensationalist newspapers and your own minds. They are literally giving the lands to the previous owners who are traceable, not all whites' land is getting appropriated ffs. Apartheid didn't end centuries ago, its just been 2 decades, rightful owners are still alive and kicking.

Then I suggest you post a link to less sensationalist news providing more information.

Even after this reform, Whites will own disproportionately most lands in SA and people are calling it an apartheid.

Well they have to change the constitution to allow for expropriation, which I disapprove of. I don't see how anyone can believe this "reform" will change anything for the better in SA.

[Sivad]

If a group steals your land now and 25 years later when you are still alive and the new government wants to give back you your land, what's wrong with it?

It doesn't matter who the land "belongs" to, if there's an unjust distribution then expropriation is warranted.

According to an official audit, 72 per cent of farms and agricultural holdings in South Africa are owned by whites(8% of the population) and 24 per cent by non-whites. Of the latter, just 4 per cent are black Africans(80% of the population)
https://www.ft.com/content/b79c9810-a7a ... ae1beff35b

[Rugoz]

It doesn't matter who the land "belongs" to, if there's an unjust distribution then expropriation is warranted.

The whole point of expropriation is to target certain individuals or population groups. It's a tool primarily used by totalitarian regimes. Normal countries have wealth or capital income taxes.

[fuser]

It doesn't matter who the land "belongs" to, if there's an unjust distribution then expropriation is warranted.

Exactly, I am glad you are starting to see the point here.

Then I suggest you post a link to less sensationalist news providing more information.

Information regarding what? That it is not a start of a new Apartheid? That not all whites' land is getting appropriated? Anyway if you had paid attention to a plethora of sources Alchemy had posted in the last thread about the same topic, you wouldn't be asking this.

Well they have to change the constitution to allow for expropriation, which I disapprove of. I don't see how anyone can believe this "reform" will change anything for the better in SA.

Of course, it will help, I can't remember a single country where a criminal is not prosecuted because the crime took 30 years earlier, or the victim is not compensated because the crime took place decades ago. This hasn't broken any of the countries and in fact its necessary for any society to function i.e. punishing the crime and compensating the victims. Nothing wrong with that even when it doesn't change much.

[Suntzu]

Most crimes in the U.S. have a statute of limitation except murder.

[layman]

Oh God!! As I said you guys (who are opposing this) literally have no idea what's going on in actuality preferring the fantasies of some sensationalist newspapers and your own minds. They are literally giving the lands to the previous owners who are traceable, not all whites' land is getting appropriated ffs. Apartheid didn't end centuries ago, its just been 2 decades, rightful owners are still alive and kicking.

Even after this reform, Whites will own disproportionately most lands in SA and people are calling it an apartheid.

If a group steals your land now and 25 years later when you are still alive and the new government wants to give back you your land, what's wrong with it? Don't tell me you will reject this reform as no sane man will. In fact, no sensible person will oppose this reform unless either they are completely ignorant of what's going on or they are indeed just racists, but the ignorance shown on this thread and a previous thread on the same topic is just mind-boggling.

@fuser I literally put question marks in my post precisely because I am open minded on the subject.

No need to shit on me and put words in my mouth.

[fuser]

I apologise for my tone but in the same post you came off as someone who is sure that they are not traceable and is attacking this policy without understanding it, I am sorry if I misread you.

[Pants-of-dog]

Are the rightful owners traceable?
Why not take all land if it’s all stolen?

I still haven’t seen this addressed because as per previous posts, huge numbers of blacks are descended from settlers too. Only a small number seem to be descended from those stolen from and not all land was occupied when settled by whites.

To me it seems like the usa handing stolen native land to Latinos or blacks.

Just because all blacks were discriminated against and oppressed in apartheid doesn’t mean they are all victims of colonialism or have rights to ancestoral land?

If you believe that the land is being handed over to people who do not deserve it, please present evidence for this claim.

——————————

The whole point of expropriation is to target certain individuals or population groups. It's a tool primarily used by totalitarian regimes. Normal countries have wealth or capital income taxes.

I would say the point of expropriation is to ensure state access to land. Most countries do this. Highways, for example, are almost all built on expropriated land.

A large percentage of SA farming land was expropriated by the SA government before and during Apartheid and handed over to white private owners. This expropriation is trying to redress that.

The trouble with SA is that it has been stuck in a willing seller-willing buyer model for returning land taken during the racist regimes. To no one’s surprise, rich landowners who profited from the racist system are not willing to just sell their land at prices that the SA government can afford.

[Rugoz]

Of course, it will help, I can't remember a single country where a criminal is not prosecuted because the crime took 30 years earlier, or the victim is not compensated because the crime took place decades ago.

Actually in most countries there are statues of limitations, including to theft.

If you believe that the land is being handed over to people who do not deserve it, please present evidence for this claim.

I'd say the burden of proof is on you.

I would say the point of expropriation is to ensure state access to land. Most countries do this. Highways, for example, are almost all built on expropriated land.

Not really. In civilized countries the government buys the land, in extreme cases land owners might be forced to sell.

[Pants-of-dog]

Actually in most countries there are statues of limitations, including to theft.

I'd say the burden of proof is on you.

Why?

Am I supoosed to disprove every single question that the otehr side asks?

If @layman had asked if it was interdimensional walruses behind it all, would it my job to disprove it?

Not really. In civilized countries the government buys the land, in extreme cases land owners might be forced to sell.

Well, I see it as very civilised to return land taken through racist laws before and during Apartheid.

[Suntzu]

With exception of the Zulu, most of the Blacks in South Africa are recent arrivals. Anyone who has land worth $20,000,000 inherited it. No sympathy.

[Deutschmania]

Stick to Fox News. You simply have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Do you know who the Khoi San are? Do you know what the Xhosa wars were?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhosa_Wars

Your disgusting ignorance is duly noted though, lol

Upon reading the Wikipedia article linked above it would seem that colonialism in South Africa parallels westward expansion in the United States of America . And the respective indigenous populations responded similarly . This [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhosa_Wars#Cattle-killing_movement_(1856–58)[/url] resembled this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance . Speaking of which , it's the indigenous rights movements that are being disregarded in all this controversy . https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/27/trump-tweets-about-white-farmers-while-indigenous-peoples-face-annihilation?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collections+2017&utm_term=284303&subid=15556394&CMP=GT_US_collection

[Albert]

[Alchemy]

Are the rightful owners traceable?
Why not take all land if it’s all stolen?

I still haven’t seen this addressed because as per previous posts, huge numbers of blacks are descended from settlers too. Only a small number seem to be descended from those stolen from and not all land was occupied when settled by whites.

To me it seems like the usa handing stolen native land to Latinos or blacks.

Just because all blacks were discriminated against and oppressed in apartheid doesn’t mean they are all victims of colonialism or have rights to ancestoral land?

Yes the land is traceable, because, shocker, apartheid only ended 24 years ago and apartheid forced removal policies where they stole prime land from natives were well documented, duh.

[Alchemy]

The Akkerland Boerdery hunting farm is the first farm to be seized by the government after Steenkamp and Cloete rejected the $2.08m offer. They asked for 200 million rand ($20.8m) for their reserve, when they were offered 20m rand ($2.08m) by the South African government. The farm received a valuation of 50m rand in 2011 and they can retrieve 40% of its original market value. I think they should take the money and start a new life in Australia or New Zealand and this is not a bad deal at all.

Exactly the point I made earlier about the blatant greed on display here. How is the land (note land and not farm dwellings, livestock etc undervalued)? They shouldn’t even be paying for land stolen from natives but they tried. Do you people have any clue how ridiculous this situation is? Can you please tell us what is so unreasonable about this?

[Alchemy]

With exception of the Zulu, most of the Blacks in South Africa are recent arrivals. Anyone who has land worth $20,000,000 inherited it. No sympathy.

Do you ever tire of talking absolute nonsense? Who are the Khoi, Sotho, Venda? Do you actually know what the hell You are talking about, or do you rely on Fox News and Breitbart as your authoritative source on the topic?