[Libertarian353]

thats a lie. none called himself a paleatinian 150 years ago

Neither did Jews called themselves Israeli, let's go back to that.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Neither did Jews called themselves Israeli, let's go back to that.

The Israeli identity is a new thing just like the Palestinian identity

both didnt exist 100 years ago

The Palestinian native myth is a big lie many of them are immigrants just like the Israelis

[Libertarian353]

No, clearly they were there longer and your grammar is what I expect from a white supremacist.

[LehmanB]

@LehmanB

You haven't written it already. Furthermore, Israel has lied about not using Palestinian foreign aid, has lied about it's atrocities towards Palestinians, has lied about it's usage of Palestinians as human shields, etc.

The list goes on and on.

You do you know that in order to have a citizenship you need to be a nation right? Furthermore, Palestine out of all nations is not a western creation particularly because it was denied to exist by Western powers. Furthermore, none of the groups you mentioned are nations. Alawis are a sect of Shia, Bedouin is a term that just refers to any type of nomad in Arabia, Shittes are a religious sect, and the Hijazi tribe is a tribe not a nation. Palestine is a national identity and it's something that Palestinians have identified with for centuries. This is why Israel basically adopts all Palestinian culture as it's own because it has no culture or identity.

No, you don't follow my argument. There are groups who define people, rather citizenships, and its not paralel. Jews and Arabs may divide into sub groups, but it has nothing to do to citizenship, in which case doesn't refer to grouping in Arab case cause their states are very young and artificial. You haven't seen it. Which is very bad.
About accuracy of data- also Finland writes that Tel Aviv is Israel's capital. This is a lie. Still, when they publish statistics I do believe it, and when Zimbabwe publishes statistics or the Taliban or the PLO, I am more suspicious. I have told very critical issues where the PLO lies- in very basic data, they told a death toll is 500, Israel told its 40, and the truth is 40. If you put that in the same level, if you don't understand the grouping, than you have to understand that you didn't knocked even Verv's points. We might see things differently indeed and don't have the basic layer for debating. The basic level is whether the number the PLO published is even reliable, when we know they blown their number of people by 1 million and admited they never counted and do not want to.
@Zionist Nationalist

The Israeli identity is a new thing just like the Palestinian identity

both didnt exist 100 years ago

The Palestinian native myth is a big lie many of them are immigrants just like the Israelis

Depands on the region. In Gaza -- Jaffa- they are indeed mostly Egyptians and their big migration started around 1850.

The Bedouines according to historians have had 3 waves of migrations. Our current bedouines immigrated from Saudia around 250 years ago.

The Arabs in the north contain a mixture of immigrants from Syria and Iraq, and a mixture of previous people including Jews who were islamized. Here the rate is harder to tell.

The problem is Palestinian statistics or history is coming from the outside- they don't count or research themselves.
I know exactly everything on Jews- who came back when, I know no data for sure about Palestinians.

Although back than- the family name was the name of the town, and according to that, a majority of them came from all the middle east around. Hijzai = from Hijza. Abu Kabir = a town in Egypt.

We also know that Yasser Arafat was born in Egypt but he then said he is a native palestinian and there was no holocaust. And that Mahmoud Abbas is Iraqi. But then he said he is a native Palestinian and there was no holocaust. And then people add here in the chat that we are both unreliable.

[Oxymandias]

@LehmanB

No, you don't follow my argument. There are groups who define people, rather citizenships, and its not paralel. Jews and Arabs may divide into sub groups, but it has nothing to do to citizenship, in which case doesn't refer to grouping in Arab case cause their states are very young and artificial. You haven't seen it. Which is very bad.

1. I know certain Arab states are artificial but that doesn't mean Palestine.

2. You're not making any sense or you're English is incoherent.

About accuracy of data- also Finland writes that Tel Aviv is Israel's capital. This is a lie. Still, when they publish statistics I do believe it, and when Zimbabwe publishes statistics or the Taliban or the PLO, I am more suspicious.

1. What does Finland and Zimbabwe have to do with Palestine

2. So apparently a country that is completely neutral on the Palestinian and Taliban issue and is so far removed from it that they are two different continents should be seen with suspicion? Here you're just stating your biases you don't even have proof that Zimbabwe's research should be seen with suspicion. I doubt you have even read a Zimbabwe research article. You just assume that they're lying "because theyre moozzzlems and BLACK" or something stupid like that.

I have told very critical issues where the PLO lies- in very basic data, they told a death toll is 500, Israel told its 40, and the truth is 40.

Do you have proof that the toll is 40? Is there an independent third party who corroborated the claim with evidence or did you just instantly trust Israel's report?

If you put that in the same level, if you don't understand the grouping, than you have to understand that you didn't knocked even Verv's points.

Based on your English skills I don't think you even understood a single sentence of what Verv is saying. Regardless, your ideas are far removed from Verv's.

Depands on the region. In Gaza -- Jaffa- they are indeed mostly Egyptians and their big migration started around 1850.

Everyone in this thread keeps on saying this but never gives proof at all.

The Bedouines according to historians have had 3 waves of migrations. Our current bedouines immigrated from Saudia around 250 years ago.

There are two migrations in Middle Eastern history. The first migration was from Arabia into the Caliphate. The second was into North Africa. Due to these migrations, Arabia was left empty and bedouins died off. There haven't been Bedouins since the 13th century. Unless you give me proof that a non-existent group of people managed to migrate somewhere, your argument holds no weight.

The Arabs in the north contain a mixture of immigrants from Syria and Iraq, and a mixture of previous people including Jews who were islamized. Here the rate is harder to tell.

I want your proof since it seems to me that you're talking out of your ass.

The problem is Palestinian statistics or history is coming from the outside- they don't count or research themselves.

They do and if I gave you the data they researched, you wouldn't believe it anyways so stop pretending that you'd give Palestinians a chance if you just had a couple of Palestinian research articles since they exist, you just don't want to learn about them.

I know exactly everything on Jews- who came back when, I know no data for sure about Palestinians.

So you think you're qualified to talk about Palestinians even though you have no data on anything about Palestinians.

Although back than- the family name was the name of the town, and according to that, a majority of them came from all the middle east around. Hijzai = from Hijza. Abu Kabir = a town in Egypt.

You just said one point ago, that you don't have any data on Palestinians. Based on this information, I can only assume you're making all this up. Furthermore, nationality has nothing to do with ethnic makeup you idiot. Based on this, America doesn't exist.

We also know that Yasser Arafat was born in Egypt but he then said he is a native palestinian and there was no holocaust

Saying Yasser Arafat isn't Palestinian because he was born in Egypt is like saying a Jew isn't Jewish if he was born in Hungary and not Israel. Yasser's parents were Palestinian and he identified with his Palestinian identity.

And that Mahmoud Abbas is Iraqi. But then he said he is a native Palestinian and there was no holocaust.

Why should you care if someone is or isn't Iraqi? Aren't they all artificial countries in your view? Also this is blatantly false. Mahumoud Abbas was born in Mandatory Palestine before his parents fled to SYRIA, not IRAQ. You're literally lying right now.

And then people add here in the chat that we are both unreliable.

That's because you are. You not only have admitted that you have no information on Palestinians and continued to keep on talking about them like everything you're saying is fact, but you've also directly lied about something that is verifiable through a wikipedia page. This is why you're unreliable.

[skinster]

Well obviously it does and you may be right in that regard but it's also because of the fear of a sovereign Palestinian state.

What do you mean by fear?

Except that, to my knowledge, Israel has never done something like the Gaza massacre until now. This is what I am referring to.

It doesn't have to be outright massacres to fall under the definition of genocide.

Still, there have been many massacres and ethnic cleansing in Palestine and neighbouring countries since just before Israel came along. Gaza isn't new, it's just more recent and in the age of social media.

If Israel has always open about it's genocide and is still open about it's genocide, then certainly things aren't getting better for Palestinians and any forms of negotiation with Israel proper is meaningless.

Who said anything ever got better for Palestinians since Israel came along?

Also, the negotiations were never really negotiations, but land-grabs.

Except that Palestinians aren't recognized as Israeli citizens for the most part by Israeli society and the government. They aren't seen as a part of Israel.

20% of Palestinians within what's known as Israel-proper are considered civilians. Granted, they have over 50 Israeli laws discriminating against them.

Furthermore, because Israel is a apartheid, of course Israel would state itself as being for Jews only. When Israel states it's only for Jews, it means that anyone not Jewish is not considered a part of Israel.

Israel claimed itself to be a Jewish state and that's where the apartheid label came from. That, and from the difference in status of people living in the occupied territories. Still, again, Israel is a not a Jewish state, because half the people living in Palestine are goys.

The ubiquitous use of the term "genocide" by Oxymandias and skinster is laughable. They should look up the definition of words before using them.

Would be nice if people like your extremist-zionist self would get a little bit more testy about the actual genocide that goes on, rather than words used to describe it.

It is you who should look up the definition, but since I've included it on this post, all you have to do is click.

The rare occasion when I agree with skinnister's words. Its the same thing. Still, when Arabs mantion "Palestine", they mean the state of Israel

I think they mean their land, that's been occupied since the 1940s.

The issue is the PLO and Hamas are not civilized.

Anyone would resist against terrorism and occupation. Show me a state where that hasn't happened. You would too, if you were in the same boat.

[Oxymandias]

@skinster

What do you mean by fear?

A sovereign Palestinian state with control over it's foreign aid, self-determination, financial support from Israel due to it's atrocities against them, an inability to commit those same atrocities without declaring war, and also being within the borders of Israel is a nightmare for Israel.

It doesn't have to be outright massacres to fall under the definition of genocide.

I don't mean that. I mean this is the first public large scale attempt at a massacre. Israel now isn't rose-tinting anything anymore. They've no just decided to outright kill them instead of going through the extra steps.

Still, there have been many massacres and ethnic cleansing in Palestine and neighbouring countries since just before Israel came along. Gaza isn't new, it's just more recent and in the age of social media.

That is a possibility.

Who said anything ever got better for Palestinians since Israel came along?

If nothing ever got better for Palestinians since Israel came along, why do you think that anything can get better for Palestinians after Israel came along?

Also, the negotiations were never really negotiations, but land-grabs.

Then you agree with me. There is no point to negotiating with Israel. There is no point in trying to get equal rights with Israelis.

20% of Palestinians within what's known as Israel-proper are considered civilians. Granted, they have over 50 Israeli laws discriminating against them.

Like I said, they aren't seen by the government or society as citizens. Even if they are technically "citizens" they aren't treated as such and aren't assumed to have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.

Israel claimed itself to be a Jewish state and that's where the apartheid label came from. That, and from the difference in status of people living in the occupied territories. Still, again, Israel is a not a Jewish state, because half the people living in Palestine are goys.

Except Israel and Palestine by this point are two separate polities.

[skinster]

A sovereign Palestinian state with control over it's foreign aid, self-determination, financial support from Israel due to it's atrocities against them, an inability to commit those same atrocities without declaring war, and also being within the borders of Israel is a nightmare for Israel.

I don't think this is fear in the general sense. What you're basically describing is the supremacist state losing power of controlling the natives within it. Not a terrible thing, since the supremacists should not be offered any sense of victimhood, since they're the oppressors in this situation.

I don't mean that. I mean this is the first public large scale attempt at a massacre. Israel now isn't rose-tinting anything anymore. They've no just decided to outright kill them instead of going through the extra steps.

It's not the first, since the large-scale massacres of Gaza amount to 3 since 2009. Still, there have been other large massacres by zionist forces, that one in the early 1980s was one of the first that brought along the ire of Westerners. And those from the early 1900s, from Middle Easterners.

If nothing ever got better for Palestinians since Israel came along, why do you think that anything can get better for Palestinians after Israel came along?

I don't know, history is on my side? Most liberal states pretend to be opposed to racism? Maintaining Israel in its current form is a pricey venture, including politically. Most people in nations worldwide support the Palestinian cause. History moves, move along with it.

Then you agree with me. There is no point to negotiating with Israel. There is no point in trying to get equal rights with Israelis.

On the first part, yes, since the negotiations have been proven to be the land-grabs that they are. I disagree with your second point, since as I said, Israel/Palestine is one state already, the fight next is for equal rights for all those who live in Palestine.

Like I said, they aren't seen by the government or society as citizens. Even if they are technically "citizens" they aren't treated as such and aren't assumed to have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.

But they are. They are considered citizens, ask any liberal zionists (if you can find them anymore ). The laws discriminating against them were collated to show that despite the Israeli lies of it including Palestinians amongst its state, that they are discriminated against, regardless.

Except Israel and Palestine by this point are two separate polities.

Yes, but again, Israel can't be a Jewish state unless all the people living under its rule are Jews. Currently, more than half of the population are not Jews/zionists.

[Sivad]

A sovereign Palestinian state with control over it's foreign aid, self-determination, financial support from Israel due to it's atrocities against them, an inability to commit those same atrocities without declaring war, and also being within the borders of Israel is a nightmare for Israel.

That would be a nightmare for all secular Palestinians and would doom generations of Palestinians to state imposed religious fundamentalism. Both the Jews and the Palestinians have clearly demonstrated that neither are capable of governing themselves or each other so the no-state solution is the way to go: abolish the Israeli state and make the whole territory an international protectorate to guarantee security and ensure it remains a secular democracy with strong civil rights protections for everyone.

[Oxymandias]

@Sivad

That would be a nightmare for all secular Palestinians and would doom generations of Palestinians to state imposed religious fundamentalism. Both the Jews and the Palestinians have clearly demonstrated that neither are capable of governing themselves or each other so the no-state solution is the way to go: abolish the Israeli state and make the whole territory an international protectorate to guarantee security and ensure it remains a secular democracy with strong civil rights protections for everyone.

Except that the Hamas weren't elected by Palestinians. They were made the authorities of Palestine through their truce with Israel and received much of their funding from Israel. Most Palestinians don't like them but support them since there isn't really a good secular alternative that concurrently fights Israeli occupation. Under a sovereign state, Palestinians would be capable of questioning Hamas authority since one of their main talking points (protection from Israel) is gone since now Israel is incapable of hurting them without going into war or committing war crimes. They would be capable of starting their own political parties without Israel pulling the strings (at least I hope).

Also your suggestion would be the worst case possible. I doubt the UN would be capable of doing anything and Palestine and Israel are too politically charged for any nation to fully cooperate on the matter. Palestinians just have to be patient and wait for the eventual economic instability of Israel to catch up to them.

Furthermore, we haven't seen what an authentic Palestinian governance looks like since much of Palestine is manipulated by Israel and Israel has a policy of keeping the Palestinian territories's economic on the brink of economic collapse and providing the most minimum amounts of aid calculating food down to the calories. A "state" with that much meddling being done in it cannot be considered the blame for it's current situation. You don't blame a kid who gets abused by his parents for not doing well in school especially if that parent doesn't even give him the food necessary to go through the day or rarely takes him to school at all.

[Oxymandias]

@skinster

I don't think this is fear in the general sense. What you're basically describing is the supremacist state losing power of controlling the natives within it. Not a terrible thing, since the supremacists should not be offered any sense of victimhood, since they're the oppressors in this situation.

I never said that was a bad thing.

It's not the first, since the large-scale massacres of Gaza amount to 3 since 2009. Still, there have been other large massacres by zionist forces, that one in the early 1980s was one of the first that brought along the ire of Westerners. And those from the early 1900s, from Middle Easterners.

Could you tell me the names of the massacres? I'm curious.

I don't know, history is on my side? Most liberal states pretend to be opposed to racism? Maintaining Israel in its current form is a pricey venture, including politically. Most people in nations worldwide support the Palestinian cause. History moves, move along with it.

Yes, but I doubt equality would come from it. It's just not in the culture of Israel and it's history to do that. Israel is different from South Africa in that it can't be sustained. Equality won't change that.

On the first part, yes, since the negotiations have been proven to be the land-grabs that they are. I disagree with your second point, since as I said, Israel/Palestine is one state already, the fight next is for equal rights for all those who live in Palestine.

I don't think equal rights will happen at any point in Israel's history. Israeli culture is built upon the idea that it is a Jewish nation. Whether or not you think this is impossible, it doesn't change the fact that Israelis believe so. As long as Israeli considers itself a Jewish nation, it will not give equal rights to non-Jewish peoples (that is unless they are from the West in which they are treated slightly nicer than their Arab counterparts).

But they are. They are considered citizens, ask any liberal zionists (if you can find them anymore ). The laws discriminating against them were collated to show that despite the Israeli lies of it including Palestinians amongst its state, that they are discriminated against, regardless.

No, I meant it from a sociological point of view. Arabs can be formally citizens in Israel but they are never treated like equal citizens by both the government and Israeli society and they will never be. These discrimination laws prove this.

Yes, but again, Israel can't be a Jewish state unless all the people living under its rule are Jews. Currently, more than half of the population are not Jews/zionists.

Oh it can be a Jewish state. Israel has just decided that it is. Therefore, any non-Jewish individual cannot by definition have the same rights as a Jewish individual in Israel. Your first mistake was thinking that Israel would allow for equal rights on the basis that half their population isn't Jewish.

[LehmanB]

that's been occupied since the 1940s.

Excelent!!

indeed they see through your paradigm: nothing was occupied before- not the brits, not the Ottmans, not the Jordanians.
An occupation of the palestinians could be done indeed only by Jews, as you mantioned. We do know the only definition and distinguish character of this nation is of Arabs who lived under Jewish control. You summerized it perfectly!!

[Oxymandias]

@LehmanB

Yeah because the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire never happened. /s

No we don't. We know the culture of Palestine through Ottoman records, advertisements, and literature in that era. Only you don't know that. Just because you don't have any data on Palestinians doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[LehmanB]

@LehmanB

Yeah because the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire never happened. /s

No we don't. We know the culture of Palestine through Ottoman records, advertisements, and literature in that era. Only you don't know that. Just because you don't have any data on Palestinians doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

people, not a nation. the definition of a "palestinian nation" was defined by the Zionists.
We know that Chrussadors massacred the Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron in the 12 centuary. So what?

[Oxymandias]

@LehmanB

people, not a nation. the definition of a "palestinian nation" was defined by the Zionists.

It was defined by Palestinians too for fuck's sake. The King-Crane Commission, a study which actually tried to understand what Arabs wanted from the partition of the Ottoman Empire, saw that all Arabs from the Palestinian area wanted independence or autonomy if in a united Syria. Palestinians literally went crazy trying to the get the US involved in the partition, get them their independence, and remove Zionist and British control of the area. It isn't defined by Zionists if they identified as such during the time. Zionist used the term because Palestinians were using it, not because they made it up.

We know that Chrussadors massacred the Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron in the 12 centuary. So what?

It means that Palestinian identity did exist, that Palestinian culture existed, and that Palestine as an idea existed during that time. It wasn't made up or is recently created like you're claiming. It existed during the Ottoman Empire and continued after it's fall. You are wrong. You know you're wrong that's why you're saying stupid shit like "So what, Crusaders also killed Jews" and pretending that it isn't relevant to the discussion. You already admitted that you know jackshit about Palestine and it's history yet you continue to talk about it like you're an expert on the subject when you yourself admitted that you don't know anything about it.

[LehmanB]

@LehmanB



It was defined by Palestinians too for fuck's sake. The King-Crane Commission, a study which actually tried to understand what Arabs wanted from the partition of the Ottoman Empire, saw that all Arabs from the Palestinian area wanted independence or autonomy if in a united Syria. Palestinians literally went crazy trying to the get the US involved in the partition, get them their independence, and remove Zionist and British control of the area. It isn't defined by Zionists if they identified as such during the time. Zionist used the term because Palestinians were using it, not because they made it up.



It means that Palestinian identity did exist, that Palestinian culture existed, and that Palestine as an idea existed during that time. It wasn't made up or is recently created like you're claiming. It existed during the Ottoman Empire and continued after it's fall. You are wrong. You know you're wrong that's why you're saying stupid shit like "So what, Crusaders also killed Jews" and pretending that it isn't relevant to the discussion. You already admitted that you know jackshit about Palestine and it's history yet you continue to talk about it like you're an expert on the subject when you yourself admitted that you don't know anything about it.

Arab identity existed. As a group different of Syrians, it have started only by Zionists. Aside this, I haven't encountered any characteristic of them as a nation. In Gaza I saw an interview where Hamas asks for Egypt to open the seige, claiming they are all Egyptians too.
Anyway I don't care, they may call themselves as they want, I see they have tendencies for unification as pan-Arabs, or splitting by tribes or slight religious patterns. The civic status is less a factor here. And Palestinian is a civic caracteristic. ITs like insiting Kuweity and Saudis are inherently different.

And you know why else I don't care? Cause (unfortunately) the PLO/Hamas control the Arab population there, but luckily they refuse to upgrade it to a state style San Marino unless get more. So hey, Netanyahu can't force them. so that released the pressure of Netanyahu for "preventing" them civic right, which shall be Jordanian anyway. Perhaps the target of this "nation" is to destroy Zionism, this is all about. Otherwise, they will stop be Palestinians. And becomre just ..people. And than you will stop your obsession with them..

[Oxymandias]

@LehmanB

Arab identity existed. As a group different of Syrians, it have started only by Zionists. Aside this, I haven't encountered any characteristic of them as a nation. In Gaza I saw an interview where Hamas asks for Egypt to open the seige, claiming they are all Egyptians too.

I honestly have no idea what you're even saying here. Are you implying that Palestinians are just different groups of Syrians or that Syria was started by Zionists? Furthermore, link me to the interview and secondly, the Hamas don't represent Palestinians. Also, once again, just because you never saw any characteristic of them being a nation, doesn't mean that they have no characteristics of a nation.

Anyway I don't care, they may call themselves as they want, I see they have tendencies for unification as pan-Arabs, or splitting by tribes or slight religious patterns. The civic status is less a factor here. And Palestinian is a civic caracteristic. ITs like insiting Kuweity and Saudis are inherently different.

Dude, Palestinians are the most anti-pan Arabist Arabs out there. They hate pan-Arabism. Furthermore, there are no tribal politics in Palestine. There are no tribal politics in the Middle East. This is a myth spread to assert Arab's "primitiveness" when in actuality, alot of the political factions in the Arab world are based upon ideological differences, not tribal associations.

You make up so much stuff yet you don't explain any of it. Furthermore, Kuwaits and Saudis are culturally different since, you know, one is Mesopotamian in it's culture while the other is in the Gulf.

Cause (unfortunately) the PLO/Hamas control the Arab population there, but luckily they refuse to upgrade it to a state style San Marino unless get more

They literally cannot become a state since Israel doesn't want a sovereign Palestinian state. They don't refuse to upgrade it, they either are encouraged by Israel not to (i.e. the Hamas) or can't do so due to restraints placed upon them by Israel (i.e. the PLO).

So hey, Netanyahu can't force them. so that released the pressure of Netanyahu for "preventing" them civic right, which shall be Jordanian anyway.

Israel is literally forcing them not to be states. Netanyahu has piratically confirmed that the Palestinian territories will be under the control of Israel which destroys the possibility of any self-determination of Palestinians. Furthermore, Palestinians aren't Jordanians. They don't identify as such and have no history in Jordan. Jordan itself is a artificial country that's just a remnant of Hashmite Arabia. The entirety of Jordanian identity is based on their allegiance to the King of Jordan.

Perhaps the target of this "nation" is to destroy Zionism, this is all about.

Nations don't have a target. Palestinians just want their occupation to end. They don't give a shit about "ending Zionism". If you asked any Palestinian from the 18th century about whether they cared about Zionism most of them wouldn't even have heard of it. They just want their own country to be liberated. If that somehow destroys Zionism this only shows the fragility of it's ideology, not the malevolence of Palestinians.

Otherwise, they will stop be Palestinians. And becomre just ..people. And than you will stop your obsession with them..

Now I know for a fact that you don't know anything about Palestinians. Palestinians have probably the most strongest national identity in the world and this has only be reinforced by Israeli occupation. They will always see their selves as Palestinian since such an identity carries baggage. Also I'm not obsessed with Palestinians. This is legitimately my first thread about them. I'm just reacting to people like you who are obsessed with Palestine.

[skinster]

I never said that was a bad thing.

I wasn't talking about that, but using a term of fear to describe the oppressor's actions almost sounds like you're justifying or legitimizing its behaviour.

Could you tell me the names of the massacres? I'm curious.

King David hotel
Al-Tira
Al-Khisas
Damascus Gate cafe
Semiramas hotel
Balad al-Shaykh Deir Yassen
Jaffa Gate
Sa'sa village
Ramia market
Cairo-Haifa train
Deir Yassin
Ein al Zeitun prisoners
Abu Shusha
Safsaf
al-Dawayima
Sabra and Shatila and various other attacks on refugee camps
Last 3 Operation Ethnic Cleansing wars on Gaza

Yes, but I doubt equality would come from it. It's just not in the culture of Israel and it's history to do that. Israel is different from South Africa in that it can't be sustained. Equality won't change that.

I don't think equal rights will happen at any point in Israel's history. Israeli culture is built upon the idea that it is a Jewish nation.

That's only a recent thing. After running away from any final settlement agreements, even after refusing 78% of Palestine (much more than it was originally offered), Israel decided to demand itself to be known as a Jewish state, demanding Palestinians recognise it as such. Obviously an absurd demand since it's a zionist state on Arab land where half of the population aren't Jewish, but yes, Israel was never going to be a Jewish state, unless it accepts the two-state solution where there is a Palestinian state alongside it. Something that's obviously not going to happen either.

No, I meant it from a sociological point of view. Arabs can be formally citizens in Israel but they are never treated like equal citizens by both the government and Israeli society and they will never be. These discrimination laws prove this.

You initially denied Israel has Palestinians amongst its citizens and I showed you how that's incorrect. Now you're moving on to other things.

It seems like you have some guesswork going on.

Oh it can be a Jewish state. Israel has just decided that it is.

Israel also considers itself a democracy but obviously this isn't the case. You don't have to run with what zionists say, just because they say so.

Your first mistake was thinking that Israel would allow for equal rights on the basis that half their population isn't Jewish.

That wasn't a mistake, but your odd assumption. I was stating a fact; Israel cannot be a Jewish state while half of its subjects are non-Jews. It'd be like saying England is a white state, while here I am...

[Oxymandias]

@skinster

I wasn't talking about that, but using a term of fear to describe the oppressor's actions almost sounds like you're justifying or legitimizing its behaviour.

I'm not. Israel does and should fear a sovereign Palestine due to how powerful Palestinian self-determination is. This goes for the relationship between the West and the Middle East. If the Middle East united into one stable nation, it would be the biggest fear of the West.

King David hotel
Al-Tira
Al-Khisas
Damascus Gate cafe
Semiramas hotel
Balad al-Shaykh Deir Yassen
Jaffa Gate
Sa'sa village
Ramia market
Cairo-Haifa train
Deir Yassin
Ein al Zeitun prisoners
Abu Shusha
Safsaf
al-Dawayima
Sabra and Shatila and various other attacks on refugee camps
Last 3 Operation Ethnic Cleansing wars on Gaza

Well I'll eat my words.

:eh:

Israel was founded on the idea that it would be a Jewish homeland. Non-Jews are excluded from that premise. Israel was founded for a purpose where admitting non-Jews into the state would fail that purpose. This is completely different from South Africa whose purpose was to expand the reaches of an empire and, once it gained independence, that purpose became void. Nothing in South Africa's creation or history demanded that it be a nation for whites. This isn't the case for Israel.

Regardless, as you can see from the evidence I had given, Israel isn't going to last very long. Whether equality is given to Palestinians or not, Israel is unsustainable and equality won't change that. In either scenario, Palestinians are given de facto authority over large parts of Israel.

That's only a recent thing. After running away from any final settlement agreements, even after refusing 78% of Palestine (much more than it was originally offered), Israel decided to demand itself to be known as a Jewish state, demanding Palestinians recognise it as such. Obviously an absurd demand since it's a zionist state on Arab land where half of the population aren't Jewish, but yes, Israel was never going to be a Jewish state, unless it accepts the two-state solution where there is a Palestinian state alongside it. Something that's obviously not going to happen either.

By asserting itself as a Jewish state, Israel makes it clear that it does not intend to give Palestinians equality to Jews. That's my point. Israel isn't going to give equality to non-Jewish peoples as long as it considers itself a Jewish state. It doesn't matter whether or not half of the population is non-Jewish that doesn't matter when you're trying to get equality. What matters is what the general population thinks.

You initially denied Israel has Palestinians amongst its citizens and I showed you how that's incorrect. Now you're moving on to other things.

I never denied that. I said that Palestinians aren't seen as citizens by the government or society. That's completely different from saying that there are no Palestinians in Israel. Furthermore, I'm just reiterating the same point that I have made before. This isn't moving on, this is staying in the same place.

Israel also considers itself a democracy but obviously this isn't the case. You don't have to run with what zionists say, just because they say so.

When you're trying to get equality from the government, what the government says is important. How the government and the Israeli people see Israel is essential to getting equal footing with Jews. If Israel considers itself a nation for Jews, this means that any type of attempt for equality is going to void since Israel, by law, is a Jewish state. It cannot be anything else. What Palestinians have to do is merely survive and prosper however they can and do what they need to do. Eventually, Israel will fall apart and Palestinians will have self-determination.

That wasn't a mistake, but your odd assumption. I was stating a fact; Israel cannot be a Jewish state while half of its subjects are non-Jews. It'd be like saying England is a white state, while here I am...

Yes, but such a fact has little to offer for a fight for equality in Israel. If Israel considers itself a state for Jews than any non-Jewish citizen is a trespasser or a parasite to the state. You're right that Israel cannot be a Jewish state while half of it's subjects aren't Jews which is why Israel wants to get rid of them. Such an argument only reinforces their goal. It does nothing to get equality for Palestinians because equality in a state that's worse than South Africa isn't possible.

[LehmanB]

@skinster
Well I'll eat my words.

Why did you ask him names, and not how many died, and by who?
For instance, even if you include the fake events that Israel weren't doing anything, you still count a very low number.
Lets say Germany massacred more Arabs in the last decade, than Israel in all its existance.
But don't listen to me, feed up Skinnister's list and eat your words. Cause you need titles of "massacres", not to check out what is a massacre.
And explain me what Palestinians are . What is "Palestinian"- I think Skinnister explained it better than you. And what occupation shall end.
And explain me Israel doesn't want them to be a state, yet it doesn't contrast they refuses internationally to control the population unless they get more. You simply didn't contrast my argument.