[Oxymandias]

@skinster

That's my point and what I have been arguing with @Verv about the entire time. Palestine has no sovereignty nor self-determination. It cannot change it's course or improve it's situation in any meaningful way because it's fate rests in the hands of Israel. A two state solution will never exist since it isn't Israel's interests to let it happen. A Palestine with sovereignty and self-determination is dangerous to Israel.

A one state solution is impossible. Israel won't let it happen. Palestinians will never be seen as equal to Jews no matter what. What we are seeing now is a shift away from the idea of Israel being for everyone and more towards the idea that Israel is for Jews only.

[Rich]

They could stop supporting Hamas, and worse Muslim groups for a start. They could support the right of return for Armenians and then people would know they weren't just Muslim hypocrites that we've seen so many times before over the last 1400 years.

[Oxymandias]

@Rich

Palestinians never elected the Hamas. Israel placed them as Gaza's sole authority as a part of their "truce". Furthermore, pretty much everyone in the Middle East is fine with Armenians and many Palestinians are of Armenian descent. Also, you still haven't proved that all Muslims are hypocrites or have been so for centuries.

[skinster]

A two state solution will never exist since it isn't Israel's interests to let it happen. A Palestine with sovereignty and self-determination is dangerous to Israel.

Agreed, but only dangerous in the sense that it can disrupt the ethnosupremacy that is the zionist state.

A one state solution is impossible. Israel won't let it happen.

A one state solution is already here and has always been the case. The next step is equal rights for all.

Palestinians will never be seen as equal to Jews no matter what. What we are seeing now is a shift away from the idea of Israel being for everyone and more towards the idea that Israel is for Jews only.

I disagree. Apartheid ended in South Africa and it can end in Palestine. Israel however can never be for Jews only because half the population are not Jewish. Israel and its cucks can claim it is a Jewish state but those are only words, not the reality on the ground, no matter how many times it is stated.

[Oxymandias]

@skinster

I doubt racism is the sole reason. The biggest reason is that a powerful Palestine would be a huge enemy to the existence of Israel. I guess they should've put more thought into their plans.

Equal rights will never happen. I don't know how you can think that with everything that has been going on in Israel has of late. The Israeli government is slowly testing out how far it can commit atrocities in the public eye. Eventually with will lead to attempted genocide, not equal rights.

Israel claims is a Jewish state. It was intended to be so from it's conception. The idea that it isn't is ridiculous. All we can do is be patient and let nature take it's course. Palestinians just have to continue living. That is their only goal. As long as there are still Palestinians, there is still a Palestine.

[Drlee]

I disagree. Apartheid ended in South Africa and it can end in Palestine. Israel however can never be for Jews only because half the population are not Jewish. Israel and its cucks can claim it is a Jewish state but those are only words, not the reality on the ground, no matter how many times it is stated.

I wonder if there will ever come the day when people know what Apartheid is. I doubt it. We have to listen to idiots misuse the word time and time again. It is almost as badly used as "genocide".

[LehmanB]

I ll go back to the topic- @Verv made a pretty good argument, that literacy rates could be meaningless.
However the Arabs in Israel are more literate, and has higher economic status than their neighbours. During the Jordanian occupation on Judea (48-67) there was a recession in all scales, including a recession of total population.

I would like to point out something else- any data the Palestinian authority (PLO) / Hamas / UNRWA publishes is highly unreliable. They have known to publish bold lies regard to population counting, number of victims, number of welfare needed, and even destroyed Jewish archiology and runs an anti-semetic education system that literaly lies about major aspects of history..

Its not that I mind of this particular finding.. just the date about Gaza made me wonder in particular, since this is a bedouine-Egyptian population and more primitive, and without paralel acheivements, such as high number of writers or bloggers.. So either literacy means nothing if been tested as a single parameter, either these terrorist organizations (PLO/Hamas) slightly bend resaults, cause they don't really care for global standards, rather for acheiving their goal by any mean.

[skinster]

@skinster

I doubt racism is the sole reason. The biggest reason is that a powerful Palestine would be a huge enemy to the existence of Israel. I guess they should've put more thought into their plans.

I'm not sure what you're responding to or what this even means. I never spoke of a powerful Palestine, but for the inequality there currently in the form of apartheid and occupation. Please quote me if you're going to respond to me to avoid confusion.

Equal rights will never happen. I don't know how you can think that with everything that has been going on in Israel has of late. The Israeli government is slowly testing out how far it can commit atrocities in the public eye. Eventually with will lead to attempted genocide, not equal rights.

I don't know how you can think the status quo can remain long-term. And Israel isn't attempting to genocide the Palestinians, that has already been the case since 1947 and continues to this day. The definition of genocide supports my position based on the reality on the ground currently and the very short history of zionist colonization of Palestine. Look it up.

Israel claims is a Jewish state. It was intended to be so from it's conception. The idea that it isn't is ridiculous. All we can do is be patient and let nature take it's course. Palestinians just have to continue living. That is their only goal. As long as there are still Palestinians, there is still a Palestine.

You are welcome to believe Israel is a Jewish state based on zionist say-so. The idea that it is, is ridiculous. Palestine is a Middle Eastern country where the majority speak Arabic because Palestine is an Arab country.

I wonder if there will ever come the day when people know what Apartheid is. I doubt it. We have to listen to idiots misuse the word time and time again. It is almost as badly used as "genocide".

You should invest in a dictionary or try to prove how the words apartheid and genocide don't fit Israeli policy, instead of these drive-by whinefests you post. Granted, they are amusing, your regular display of your ignorance on this topic does bring me chuckles.

Here, learn something.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Palestine ia not a country

You can call that a region but its not a country by any means

[Ter]

I think part of the misconception is that they count the two million Arabs who went to live in the Kingdom of Jordan and got Jordanian citizenship. And the two million Arabs who live in Gaza. I think they must be pretty desperate to call that a country.

[Oxymandias]

@Zionist Nationalist @Ter

Yeah it's not a country. Palestine or more specifically to be Palestinian is a national identity.

[Oxymandias]

@skinster

I'm not sure what you're responding to or what this even means. I never spoke of a powerful Palestine, but for the inequality there currently in the form of apartheid and occupation. Please quote me if you're going to respond to me to avoid confusion.

I was referring to your first point. My point is that Israel does not oppose a two state solution because of ethno-supremacy although that it is a part of it but because by agreeing to a two state solution you grant Palestine sovereignty and thus all of their actions would break all international laws regarding relations with other nations.

I don't know how you can think the status quo can remain long-term. And Israel isn't attempting to genocide the Palestinians, that has already been the case since 1947 and continues to this day. The definition of genocide supports my position based on the reality on the ground currently and the very short history of zionist colonization of Palestine. Look it up.

It supports my position that Palestinian integration within Israeli society is impossible. If a peoples is being genocided, then they certainly aren't being accepted by the genocidal peoples as equals. My point was that Israel is being more open about it's genocide towards Palestinians and that this genocide is becoming worse.

You are welcome to believe Israel is a Jewish state based on zionist say-so. The idea that it is, is ridiculous. Palestine is a Middle Eastern country where the majority speak Arabic because Palestine is an Arab country.

We're talking about Israel, not Palestine.

@LehmanB

I have literally dismantled any arguments Verv had. Furthermore, the literacy rate was based on the Palestinian territories which are a series of Palestinian polities not off of Palestinians in Israel and having a high literacy rate in Palestine out of all places is positive news given what Palestinians have to go through.

I'm not going to address the rest of your arguments since you seem to be repeating the same points I have already addressed or have been addressed by other posters here. I think you should be more attentive as to what people are writing on this thread.

[skinster]

My point is that Israel does not oppose a two state solution because of ethno-supremacy although that it is a part of it but because by agreeing to a two state solution you grant Palestine sovereignty and thus all of their actions would break all international laws regarding relations with other nations.

Israel does oppose a two-state solution or a Palestinian state, because it wants the entirety of Palestine for itself. Also, Israel already violates international laws by its actions in internationally-recognised Palestinian territory; it doesn't affect its relations with other nations.

It supports my position that Palestinian integration within Israeli society is impossible. If a peoples is being genocided, then they certainly aren't being accepted by the genocidal peoples as equals. My point was that Israel is being more open about it's genocide towards Palestinians and that this genocide is becoming worse.

No, it's not impossible, because you see it with the Palestinians in what's referred to as Israel proper. Also, Israel was always open about its genocide, you only need to read early and current zionist leaders to see how they don't care about what they say or what they do.

We're talking about Israel, not Palestine.

It's the same thing. Still, if you want to go there, I already mentioned above the Palestinians that live inside Israel. If Israel was a Jewish state only, there'd be only Jews living there. This is obviously not the case since Palestinians live there too. Still again, when zionists talk about Israel, they mean all of Palestine, not just the bit that's recognised by international law.

[Oxymandias]

@skinster

Israel does oppose a two-state solution or a Palestinian state, because it wants the entirety of Palestine for itself. Also, Israel already violates international laws by its actions in internationally-recognised Palestinian territory; it doesn't affect its relations with other nations.

Well obviously it does and you may be right in that regard but it's also because of the fear of a sovereign Palestinian state.

No, it's not impossible, because you see it with the Palestinians in what's referred to as Israel proper. Also, Israel was always open about its genocide, you only need to read early and current zionist leaders to see how they don't care about what they say or what they do.

Except that, to my knowledge, Israel has never done something like the Gaza massacre until now. This is what I am referring to. Also I disagree. It is impossible and I don't think you particularly disagree with me either given that alot of what you're saying supports my point. If Israel has always open about it's genocide and is still open about it's genocide, then certainly things aren't getting better for Palestinians and any forms of negotiation with Israel proper is meaningless.

It's the same thing. Still, if you want to go there, I already mentioned above the Palestinians that live inside Israel. If Israel was a Jewish state only, there'd be only Jews living there. This is obviously not the case since Palestinians live there too. Still again, when zionists talk about Israel, they mean all of Palestine, not just the bit that's recognised by international law.

Except that Palestinians aren't recognized as Israeli citizens for the most part by Israeli society and the government. They aren't seen as a part of Israel. Furthermore, because Israel is a apartheid, of course Israel would state itself as being for Jews only. When Israel states it's only for Jews, it means that anyone not Jewish is not considered a part of Israel.

[Ter]

If Israel was a Jewish state only, there'd be only Jews living there. This is obviously not the case since Palestinians live there too

The 20% Arab Israelis do not affect the status of Israel as a Jewish Nation.
Similarly, the so-called "Islamic Republics" have non-Islamic minorities within their population.

The ubiquitous use of the term "genocide" by Oxymandias and skinster is laughable. They should look up the definition of words before using them.

[LehmanB]

the literacy rate was based on the Palestinian territories which are a series of Palestinian polities not off of Palestinians in Israel and having a high literacy rate in Palestine out of all places is positive news given what Palestinians have to go through.

....I think you should be more attentive as to what people are writing on this thread.

My argument was their data is unreliable.

Aside, my relation to Verv was I haven't seen too any sign of development in Gaza aside for this score, so it gives a strength to Verv's origin argument. In literate cultures there are writers- not in Gaza, so I see a dissonsnce which drops me back to Verv's point.

Again, put attention to my main argument, that the things they publish are often not true / not accurate, before we discuss the "findings".

We're talking about Israel, not Palestine.

@skinster It's the same thing.

[/quote]
The rare occasion when I agree with skinnister's words. Its the same thing. Still, when Arabs mantion "Palestine", they mean the state of Israel, not just the bit occupied by Jordan. Palestine = Jewish control. If Jews were to control Lebanon too, they would be called Palestinians instead of "Lebanese".

[Oxymandias]

@LehmanB

1. It's no less unreliable than that of Israel's data. Both have the potential for bias.

2. Just because you haven't seen any development in Gaza doesn't mean there isn't. Furthermore, there are Palestinian writers you just haven't heard of them since you know, they're in Gaza and thus have no chance of spreading their works to the world.

3. You haven't proven that the things they publish aren't true. This isn't Hamas, this is the PLO so posting Hamas articles and passing it off as Palestinian unreliability won't work.

The rare occasion when I agree with skinnister's words. Its the same thing. Still, when Arabs mantion "Palestine", they mean the state of Israel, not just the bit occupied by Jordan. Palestine = Jewish control. If Jews were to control Lebanon too, they would be called Palestinians instead of "Lebanese".

1. Except that we are talking about the Israeli government and it's domain and not how Palestinians perceive Israel. Clearly you weren't paying attention.

2. Palestinians have a very specific national identity that it tied to Palestine which goes back to centuries. If Jews controlled Lebanon, they wouldn't be called Palestinians but Lebanese (although I question the naturality of Lebanon just like every single other Middle Eastern country).

[LehmanB]

The PLO lies about total numbers of its population. the PLO lied about numbers of death tolls, the PLO runs an education system that lies about history.
I have written it already.
Please prove where Israel lied about data it published.
I don't think that being byased is the issue here. The issue is the PLO and Hamas are not civilized.

Palestinians is not a nation. Its like a citizenship. Kuwaiti, Qatari, Bahareini, Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, Palestinian. These are all western creations/ citizenships.
Nations or groups are rather: Alawis, Bedouines, Hijazi tribe, Shiites- from which nation or tribe...
Palestinians= Arabs from different groups who lives or lived under Jewish control. Some would say under what Brit designed, but than it means Palestinians are already independed.

[Oxymandias]

@LehmanB

You haven't written it already. Furthermore, Israel has lied about not using Palestinian foreign aid, has lied about it's atrocities towards Palestinians, has lied about it's usage of Palestinians as human shields, etc.

The list goes on and on.

You do you know that in order to have a citizenship you need to be a nation right? Furthermore, Palestine out of all nations is not a western creation particularly because it was denied to exist by Western powers. Furthermore, none of the groups you mentioned are nations. Alawis are a sect of Shia, Bedouin is a term that just refers to any type of nomad in Arabia, Shittes are a religious sect, and the Hijazi tribe is a tribe not a nation. Palestine is a national identity and it's something that Palestinians have identified with for centuries. This is why Israel basically adopts all Palestinian culture as it's own because it has no culture or identity.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Palestinians have identified with for centuries

thats a lie. none called himself a paleatinian 150 years ago