[Oxymandias]

@Drlee

But you want a link. Probably because you are too lazy to paste the words above into google and see it yourself.

But just for you I will do what I never do for students. I will give you the link. And then you can read it and come back here and tell everyone here that you were wrong and you are sorry. Fair enough?

[url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel[/url]

By the way, this quote seems to be used in any number of websites.

Like the quote given before this one, read the talk page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Agriculture_in_Israel

You need to grow up, man up and learn that adults admit it when they are wrong.

I'm not going to admit I said something I never said.

Were you wrong when you posted this utter nonsense? Are you man enough to admit it?

I forgot the "one". It is one of the highest literacy rates in the world. That is what I am willing to admit. As you know, I am not a born English speaker.

Were you wrong when you posted this utter nonsense? Are you man enough to admit it?

I wasn't wrong and you haven't given me proof that contradicts mine. It's not about being "man" enough given that I can use that same exact logic against you. Are you MAN enough to admit that you're delusional?

Are you man enough to admit you were wrong now?

I admit that I screwed up writing that post if that fits your definition of "wrong".

Now do you want to apologize to Ter et all?

Not really. I still stand by my words.

Source: Wikipedia [translated from Hebrew].

I assume the wikipedia article was the Economy of Israel one? That exact wikipedia article has a talk page talking about the outdated-ness of the article, US foreign aid to Israel, and the questions the validity of the article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Economy_of_Israel

Furthermore, different languages have different wikpedia articles and aren't just direct translations of the English wikipedia articles. This leads into large amounts of bias (for example, the wikipedia article discussing the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople in Greek was titled "The Fall of Constantinople" however in Turkish it was titled "The Conquest of Constantinople"). Given this, I assume that the Hebrew Economy of Israel wikipedia article would be far from unbiased.

About GDP, the two main sources of income of Palestinian authority are : foreign aid, and working for Jews. The death panelty for Gazan economy was blocking their oppertunities to work and sale for Israelis. Any time Israel blocks trade or connection or working premissions to the autonomic region, it has a very bad effect on the PA economy who is totally depanded on Israel, and foreign aid.

I already posted evidence that disproves this. Do you want me to post it again?

How is that, to break the propaganda frame of debate. ?

Because an academic Israeli book is Iranian propaganda. Or are you implying that Israel is an Iranian puppet state manipulated by Iran?

[LehmanB]

I already posted evidence that disproves this. Do you want me to post it again?

Because an academic Israeli book is Iranian propaganda. Or are you implying that Israel is an Iranian puppet state manipulated by Iran?

No need to post again, you are out of context completely.

[Oxymandias]

@LehmanB

I don't think you know what "out of context" means. If you mean relevance, yes it is relevant. It directly disproves your point. Also, just because you said you don't want it, I'm going to post it again:

For most of its existence, Israel has been the world's foremost recipient of aid. I quote The Political Economy of Israel's Occupation, by Shir Hever. One of his main theses in the book is that the Israeli economy is reliant on international aid to Palestine:

Much of the demand for Israeli consumer goods is funded directly by aid. The OPT is Israel's second largest export market (after the US), with exports worth US$ 2.3 billion in 2007 (ICBS, 2008a). Because Israeli trucks can usually cross the checkpoints on their way to supply Palestinian stores (or they can deliver their cargo in the back-to-back method5), Palestinians often find it easier to import from Israel than from a nearby Palestinian community. Israeli companies also supply goods (mostly food) to the international aid agencies to be supplied to the Palestinians. Because of the Paris Protocols, importing cheaper food from nearby countries could be even more expensive, because then the agencies would have to pay customs. Buying food from Israeli companies exempts the aid agencies from paying customs. Altogether, a UN worker has estimated that 45% of the aid to the OPT flows back to the Israeli market (Karmi, 2005). This estimate, however, must be taken with a pinch of salt, because without a central bank... It is more probable that this figure is a gross underestimation.

P.38:

Whenever Palestinians import goods using this foreign aid, they must either buy from Israeli companies or buy from international companies and pay customs to the Israeli government. Even when goods from Jordan or Egypt might be available at cheaper prices, Israeli administrative hurdles to the movement of goods and customs force Palestinians to buy the more expensive Israeli products.

p.39

Israel confiscates moneys that were due to the Palestinian Authority6 to pay for the costs of utilities, which sometiems are provided to the Palestinians at a higher cost than the price paid by Israelis for the same services (World Bank, 2004a; Rubinstein, 2004).

pages 29-34. Notes:

prior to the 2nd intifada Israel was receiving more humanitarian aid than Palestine OPT (p.29)

all aid to OPT goes through Israeli customs p.22

foreign aid to Israel is from: the US (mostly military aid), Jewish communities worldwide, compensation payments for the holocaust

US aid accumulating since 1949, "it consists of grants, loans (usually with preferred loan conditions), loan guarantees, and other forms of assistance (Clyde, 2002). Most of the aid comes in the form of military assistance, but Israel is the only country given a permit by the United States to use portions of the grant money to purchase military equipment from local industry (Yom, 2008)."

"If interest is added to the calculation, the total aid that Israel received from the US from 1973 to 2008 is over US$200 billion, about 3 times the current annual budget of the Israeli government." P.33

compensation from Germany an average of US $732 million annually p.33

"Israel was the biggest recipient of foreign aid in the world until 2003, when it was overtaken by Iraq. In 2005 it was also overtaken by Nigeria. What is most surprising is that Israel receives more per capita aid than the Palestinians, refuting the myth that Palestinians are the highest recipients of per capita aid." P.34

Here is more proof:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/06/14/40-billion-aid-to-Israel-is-largest-ever-to-any-country-says-Susan-Rice/5461465914964/

WASHINGTON, June 14 (UPI) -- U.S. National Security Adviser Susan Rice said the proposed military aid package to Israel is larger than any the United States has ever offered to any country.

The 10-year aid program would give Israel up to $40 billion to upgrade its military aircraft and missile defense systems, and to defend against militants in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, and al-Qaida and Islamic State affiliates in Syria and Egypt.

Speaking Monday in Washington to the American Jewish Committee Global Forum, Rice said the pact would "constitute a significant increase in support."

With $3.1 billion in 2015, Israel is the biggest beneficiary of U.S. foreign aid. Officials from Israel and the United States have said a $4 billion package for 2016 is under consideration. A sticking point in the long-term aid package is the strained relationship and mistrust between President Barack Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Some of Netanyahu's advisers, worried about Obama's replacement, have urged him to accept the U.S. offer soon. They cite Donald Trump's indecisiveness on issues, including relations with Israel; Hillary Clinton's objections to construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and Bernie Sanders' left-leaning influence on Democratic Party politics, leading to the party's concern over the welfare of Palestinians and exasperation with Israeli occupation policies.

In her address, Rice said: "Israel's security isn't a Democratic interest or a Republican interest. It's an enduring American interest." She also denounced Israel's insistence on building communities in the West Bank, saying the ideal approach to "sustainable security for Israel, and to dignity and self-determination for the Palestinians, is two states for two peoples," a policy the Netanyahu administration opposes.

Here are excerpts from the Economy of Israel Wikipedia page (the link you're quoting) talking about the inaccuracies of the article:

Article text very dated
The text of this article is clearly taken from a 1997-8 source and so its references to current situations and trends is not relevant. It needs a good clean-up.

"Two developments have helped to transform Israel's economy since the beginning of the decade."
"Until the last decade, Israel's trade with the Arab world..."
Which decades are these?24.64.166.191 05:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Summary Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans $74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid) $9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments $1,650,000,000

Grand Total $84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli $14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total $84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S. $49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers $134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli $23,240

Special Reports:

"Israel's strong commitment to economic development and its talented work force led to economic growth rates during the nation's first two decades that frequently exceeded 10% annually."

My comment: how can we say "talented work force"? Compared to who? References? I get associations to "Ubermench" here. Ugh. I suggest we delete "and its talented work force".

Also: Should there not, in all fairness (when mentioning the high growth rate in this period), be a reference to the compensations payed to Israel from Germany in this period? Huldra 19:20, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but that compensation from Germany was not charity. Is was owed to a substantial percantage of Israelis who had assets stolen during WWII.

Israel has the highest percentage of engineers and physicians per 1000 people in the world, Israel has the most patents per 1,000 people in the world. Do you need anymore confirmation? Just google it and you'll see.

Yes, but this has to do with the population being EDUCATED, not "talented". "Talented workforce" is a nonsensical term that reeks of fascism. IDiO (talk) 01:25, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm with IDIO on this. As an engineer, I do not consider my engineering a "talent." "Educated" is a much more accurate term for the Israeli workforce. Also, how much of the growth rate in the first 2 decades was due to population growth, and how much to per capita economic growth? Regards. Plazak (talk) 11:41, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Unbelievably, there is not a single reference to the total US economic support to Israel. The last numbers I saw, (from 2001) was UD$ 2800 mil. For 1 year. And that is not an unusual year: 2-3 billion US$ pr. year has been the average these last few years, as far as I know. That´s serious money, in my world! Still: nowhere, absolutely nowhere (as far as I can see) under ANY of the articles about Israel (in Wikipedia) is this total mentioned!! Incredible. (If I´m wrong, and I´ve missed the information somewhere in an article about Israel on wikipedia, please inform me, and I´ll gladly retract my words.) (Yes, I see that the article says: "Economic aid - recipient: $662 million from US (2003 est.)" ...but that is without the greatest part of the aid! (-namely the military aid), as far as I can see.)

And when one user had included some statistics on this aid a short time ago (admittedly, not all very relevant), then another user:Humus sapiens deletes it all with the (POV) comment "crap"!

A couple of billion dollar every year cannot be ignored! If such basic facts are sensored out from Wikipedia, then Wikipedia becomes absolutely useless and meaningless as an informationsource on the Middle East. Btw, where I live (in Scandinavia) broadcasters on the state media (who are payed to be NPOV) routinely term the US as "the paymasters of Israel". Nobody (to my knowledge) has objected; it is accepted as a matter of fact.

Sooooo: I propose: either we get these facts into this article, or: we create a new article, named, say: US aid to Israel. Actually, the subject is so large that perhaps it should be a separate article...inf. I would like to see is: when did economic support really start "big-time"? (wasn´t it in the 60´s?) ..a histogram/graph showing how the amounts of aid has developed over the years could be informative. Also: how much to the military, how much to civil use?

Anyway, as this article stands now it is a disgrace to Wikipedia. IMO. Huldra 19:20, 26 September 2005 (UTC) PS: and nooooo: I´m not proposing an article with the name: US: the paymasters of Israel. Thought I should make that clear :-D

Huldra, I agree: foreign aid on the order of 2-3% of GDP per year warrants mentioning. There should probably also be a separate article on US aid to Israel (or at least the US-Israeli relationship), because it does constitute approximately a third of all US foreign aid, and this for a nation of just 6.5 million. Marsden 19:35, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
...yes, and that for a nation which in no way is among the poorest in the world. The US-Israel relationship/aid is certainly also an important project. However, I think one should start with one article, and I suggest the US: the paymasters of Isr.. oooooopsh, I mean: the US aid to Israel-article. 8-> Do you have any good references? Easily available? Huldra 22:56, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't let Humus put you off. The only place he gets neutral is the transmission of his car. I think the way to proceed would be to write a more up-to-date section on US aid to Israel, clearly an important part of the Israeli economy, and then break it out into another article if it gets too long. Don't fill it full of bumph though. Just clear, straight facts. If Humus reverts it, RfC it. If he gets support in an RfC, it's time to leave Wikipedia to the Zionists, because let's face it, if you are willing to suppress facts such as a $3 billion subsidy, we're just another hasbara organisation.


I note also that "aircraft parts and other defense equipment" is an interesting way of stating what Israel imports from the US. The CIA factbook is rather more blunt. It says "military equipment". Grace Note 01:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

There is an over-arching problem on Wiki of what I'll call the "Hasbara Mafia," who team up to perpetrate the fraud that the Israeli government (or sometimes even the Netanyahu branch of Likud ...) position on matters concerning Israel is the NPOV. We've all seen it. They can generally muster about five people to participate in an edit war, so I don't think there's much point in trying to do anything directly to oppose them unless similar numbers can be found to support it.
A lot of what the Hasbara Mafia does is actually positive, and certainly their positions should be noted within articles. What really bothers me is that they have sometimes -- as in this article -- thoroughly censored information that they don't like, and in other cases (see Occupied territories) they have hijacked articles so as to avoid the use of terms that they don't like.
What I'd like to see would be for the Hasbara Mafia to stop relying so heavily on winning editting wars: from what I have seen, when they are confident they can win an edit war with their prefered position, that is what they will do; when they are less confident, they'll stall and try to outlast their opponents; and when they see they have little chance, they can be quite reasonable. In an enterprise like Wikipedia, it is naturally very easy for an interested minority to take control of areas in which there is no coherent opposition, and that, in my opinion, is what has happened here. A coherent opposition needs to be formed.
Marsden 16:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I will not comment on the "Hasbara Mafia," (frankly, I´m unfamiliar with the name), but I can tell you this: my reason for interest in this field is the following: in 2001 I travelled in the Middle East (not Israel) for several months -(visiting historical sites etc). Now, what stunned me & suprised me most during these months was the low opinion of local people towards the US (of course, they had an even lower opinion of Israel, but that was a more well-known/expected attitude.....). Again & again & again I met people who expressed an intense hatred of the US. Why? Always the same answer: because of US support for Israel. (And I´m not talking moral support here: no, I´m talking cash, $, money.) And these were relatively well-educated people (spoke English, for a start!). When I returned to Scandinavia (=home) I started reading more about modern history of the region, and understood more. Then came 9/11, & I´m sad to say: I was´t very suprised.
(Now I always laugh (laud!) when I hear Bush et al. claim that the US was/is attacked because "people hate our freedom and democracy". I have never met a single person who hate the US because its "freedom and democracy". Not a single one. Actually, people in the Middle East don´t give a damn (mostly) about the internal policies of the US, (just like the people in US don´t give a damn (mostly) about internal policies in the Middle East.))
At the same time: people I met in the Middle East also expressed wildly different opinion about these matters: some seem to think that 90% of Israels income came from the US(!) (no, I´m not joking!). Then imagine my suprise when, browsing Wikipedia, I do not find a single reference to what so many people consider the most important issue regarding the US & the West & Israel! Not only that; I find that references to this is "edited" (read: censored) out with comments like "crap"! Well, I think we are all loosers here. Actually, I suspect Israel/US will (possibly) be the biggest loosers in the end: when real information is not found easily, a lot of false information will thrive and blossom instead.
What I propose is this: instead of meddeling (too much) with this article: lets have a general statement like: "Israel also recieves substantial aid from the US." Let us link this this statement to the n ew article. Let us then get all facts, figures /years into this article AND: the sources! Very, very important. We have to document every single number. (Actually, I´m always very "ad fontes" when I edit articles...it is in "discussion"-pages I´m "huldra"! :-)). Anyway, let us start as a "stub", and expand it. How about it?
PS: and if people who like to think that Israel manages on its "talented work force" alone deletes such an article; well, I think it will be worst for them, It will only mean that there are people in Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc.+ some in the West who will continue to believe that Israel gets 90% of its income from the US, even after they have consulted Wikipedia.... Sigh. Huldra 21:50, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

CERTAIN people want to single Israel out. Truth is that a lot of countries have benefited from US taxpayers more than Israel. Jordan and Egypt each receive more US aid (economic and military) than Israel does (%of GDP). you can put a "US AID TO ...." section for a substantial amount of countries. The Marshall Plan, South Korean, the Mexican bailout, aid to Egypt and Jordan, etc.

And this garbage about Israelis get 90% of income from US. It sounds more like someone made up the number. What is that even based on? It doesn't even make any sense. Why does Israel have $18 billion in FDI this year (foreign direct investment-for those less than intelligent wanna be "Palestine is great, Israel sucks" economists)? why does Warren Buffet make his only major foreign acquisition in Israel? Why does Israel have the most companies on the Nasdaq (outside of US)? Why does Israel in the top 5 every year in patents? Why does Donald Trump build skyscrapers in Ramat Gan? Why is Israel growing at 5% a year (in a war year) when Portugal has a growth rate of 0% (from ECB).

Another fact: Israel is the largest purchaser of American products in the world (per capita)

Lets get this straight once and for: Israel gets $2.4 billion in Military aid, which can ONLY be spent in the US. Which is why Boeing and Lockheed Martin are very much in favor for Israel getting aid. This also adds income and jobs in these industries, AND the US gov't gets 35% back in taxes. SO BOTH SIDES MAKE OUT WELL. Israel gets $600 million for "economic aid", but in reality this money is used to pay back loans Israel made from American banks in the 1970's - although this is peanuts compared to the $58 billion that the US gave South Korea in 1998 and the untold billions the US gave Mexico for a bailou, all at US taxpayer expense.

I will put some facts into this part of the article.

Sources:

U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel - CRS Report for the Congress

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Israel: Background and Relations with the United States - CRS Report for the Congress

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33476.pdf

Bpgergo (talk) 00:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted you addition, due to the mixing of civilian and military aid. The civilian aid is direct aid to the economy, basically cash money. The military aid can only be used for purchases in the US, effectively subsidizing the US economy (see above). I have no objection to mentioning the military aid as well, but I don't want the two types to be mixed up this way. okedem (talk) 07:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The GDP table (even if sourced) is blatantly wrong. A GDP of 1 million NIS in 1965 would imply that each person generated about 40 agorot per year (I know the currency has changed since then, but the broad point remains). I'll look for a more credible alternative... Pontificake 18:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Good, good. I'm not sure what the base price is, but the table at the source ([1]) seems to forget to take into account inflation, leading to ridicules thing like 395% growth in GDP in 1984 - which was a horrible year, with 400% inflation. It's like they took today's money, and tried to list all of the previous years' GDP in today's Shekels, only by inflation, and not by actual worth (currency was exchanged for rates like 1:1000 at times), thus mucking everything up. I couldn't find another source, but [2] it says that "While the GDP per capita was only 30% of what it was in the United States in 1948; today it stands at 65% of the American level." (this is at 1998, Israel's jubilee). okedem 19:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton57/st14_01x.pdf seems to have various useful data series. What's best to use - per capita (very relevant given the population growth), total in real terms, total in NIS terms, total in dollar terms? We could, of course, use more than one. Pontificake 20:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the CBS. Why didn't I think of that? I tried to find data in the Bank of Israel website, but got nowhere. Well, the problem with NIS terms remains, it's quite meaningless. I also don't really understand how the two tables - of total GDP, and per capita GDP, can coexist - they don't add up. I don't understand what they mean by "At current prices" on the total GDP, and why, when that one looks ridicules, the per capita table (at 1995 prices) seems reasonable. I think the per capita is the most relevant, but we could use all of them, though I wouldn't bother writing something as silly as the entire Israeli nation has a GDP of 47,000 NIS in 1950... okedem 21:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the complete misrepresentaion of the scale of US aid, why is there no mention of the massive amount of German aid?

KBuck

Because Israel doesn't receive aid from Germany. It did, a long time ago (up till 1965), but even then it wasn't "massive" (but lets not debate semantics). okedem 16:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
That's funny because according to everyone else eg

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

" But there also has been extensive German military assistance to Israel during and since the Gulf war, and a variety of German educational and research grants go to Israeli institutions. The total of German assistance in all of these categories to the Israeli government, Israeli individuals and Israeli private institutions has been some $31 billion or $5,345 per capita, bringing the per capita total of U.S. and German assistance combined to almost $20,000 per Israeli"

For some reason this page isn't prepared to mention either the proper scale of US aid or German aid at all. What's the problem?

KBuck

You're mixing very different things here. The bulk of the assistance was in the form of reparations given to the Israeli government from 1953 to 1965. 1965, mind you, was 42 years ago.
The other major part is money given directly to holocaust survivors - this is not "German aid to Israel", but given directly to the survivors, and thus is not mentioned here.
Other major assistance - German shipyards built 3 submarines for Israel, which only had to pay for one, and the German government financed the other two - this is direct military assistance, and has nothing to do with the economy.
Research grants? That's peanuts, and not worthy of mention. Aid in this form has negligible impact of the economy.
Just to give some scale - your link says the sum total of Germany's aid, in all these forms (some of which irrelevant to this article), was $31 billion. Israel's budget for the year 2008 will be around $70 billion, and its GDP for 2006 was $135 billion. So while German aid was useful, most of it was a long time ago, and even then it wasn't what kept Israel going. What is relevant today is not in the form of economic assistance, and thus isn't mentioned. okedem 13:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That's funny... I've never heard anyone saying military aid and expenditure is nothing to do with the economy before... everyone else seems to think its a part of the economy. The aid given to Israel - from the US/Germany/Jews abroad is all part of the economy. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. As is your attempt to paint $5,345 per capita - money which in large part built Israel's infrastructure, as a small sum. As is giving the impression that the only aid Israel gets from the US is the relatively small sum labelled economic rather than the $billions of military aid every year. A completely misleading piece of propoganda.

KBuck

I demand you take back your accusations, and apologize for them.
I only wrote about aid from Germany. I haven't said a word about US aid, not civilian, nor military. Whatever you thought I said, is your problem. Don't attack me for things you imagined, and throw around words like "propaganda" if you want to be taken seriously.
Giving a submarine as a gift isn't economic aid, in that it has no economic impact, and is not a part of the budget. It's military aid. It's not military budgets, to be spent rather freely, as the US gives (although it can only be used for American equipment). Even if you do include it, it's not worth that much, relatively.
I gave the numbers for scale. I say again, for the last time - the major economic aid was given over 40 years ago, and what is given today is given to individuals, and has relatively little impact. okedem 14:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What accusations - "Propoganda" was a reference to the impression given in the article that US aid is small "120 million, or about 0.07% of Israel's GDP." Totally misleading. As for your odd position that military aid isn't economic - even Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer says exactly the opposite in todays announcement of $30 billion from the US for Israel over the next 10 years.

"We have an exceptionally heavy defence burden... The fact that the United States is willing to share a significant part of that burden ... is a critical element in the budget."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... 8F46D6.htm

KBuck

Your quote doesn't support your claim. And if you don't want to be perceived as attacking people, try phrasing your sentences better. okedem 16:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The article said that yearly US economic aid to Israel is $120 million - and this is already wrong. It is 0. But it is true that the article does not include the $2.4 billion and from next year $3 billion military aid. So I propose to add it. But we need to explain that it hurts the Israeli economy as much as it helps it, that this is mainly a US subsides for its military industry, and that NATO countries get lower prices when they buy US weapons, while Israel pays the full price - so this is just the way to do the same thing. Benjil 06:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
It's just outdated. The economic aid has been decreasing year by year. I support your suggestion. okedem 10:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Here ya fucking go.

[Drlee]

Bullshit wall of text.

All of which proves you wrong.

Take some college classes and come back when you can understand what you are reading.

You make utterly absurd posts. Typical of someone raised on propaganda.

[Zionist Nationalist]

This is all coming from frustration because Iran is a shithole with a GDP almost the same as Israel have with a population 10 times bigger

[LehmanB]

Blowing 10000 papers isn't going to help , although my eye did catch one source that oxy published:

Israel gets $2.4 billion in Military aid, which can ONLY be spent in the US....Israel gets $600 million for "economic aid".

This is indeed only 3% of Israel's annual budget and 1% of Israel's GDP.
Similar to my post. So what do you want?

I elaborated the discussion to claim the USA gives more welfare to Arab countries than to Israel.
The aid is interesting (me) in context - X amount of money relevant to what? Relevant to 80% the the palestinian authority's budget? Relevant to its neighbours? The USA can arm Egypt alone in 2.1 billion USD a year, it has consequences though if it wants to keep the ballance; thats an important factor. A number without a context is meaningless.
Yet Oxy's response is :Israel gets aid. This makes everything shallow.

[skinster]

I see from the last number of posts that facts and zionists don't mix. Funny. Still.

[Oxymandias]

@Drlee

Prove it. Prove to me that it's bullshit. Prove to me that it's Iranian propaganda despite the fact that all the sources I posted are American and Israeli. None of it proves me wrong and if you're referring to the Talk pages I posted, those aren't all my sources and they're chats. The reason why there are pro-Israeli arguments in there is because there is a debate between two people. However, you will note that all of those debates end up with the the guy talking about Israeli foreign aid winning.

You have no argument. You're just in denial and you're so afraid of me proving you wrong that you won't tag me either.

@Zionist Nationalist

Iran being a shithole doesn't change the fact that Israel is dependent upon foreign aid for most of it's GDP.

Iranians are pushing for Iran to change. Whether the mullahs like it or not Iran is going to change. Israeli will stay the same. It will stay on the same course for it's entire lifespan. It cannot afford change. Israeli is a ticking time bomb and it's bound to go off at some point. Right now, Israel is on life support and it isn't doing anything to change that.

@LehmanB

Blowing 10000 papers isn't going to help , although my eye did catch one source that oxy published:

You wanted proof. I gave you proof. However I doubt Zionists and Western conservatives like empirical proof.

This is indeed only 3% of Israel's annual budget and 1% of Israel's GDP.
Similar to my post. So what do you want?

This is only US aid. It does not consider Palestinian aid, German aid, donations, etc.

You are cherry-picking right now.

I elaborated the discussion to claim the USA gives more welfare to Arab countries than to Israel.

The first quote literally disconfirms this. I'm not going to argue with you on a fact. The fact is there for everyone to see. If you want I'll post it again. I'll keep on posting it just to make sure this objective fact gets through your head.

[skinster]

@Drlee

Prove it. Prove to me that it's bullshit.

He never can. He's amongst the weakest of zionists. At least a few of them try from time to time.

[Drlee]

Now Skinster.

First I am not a Zionist in the way you mean it. Nice try but won't work. I do support a Jewish homeland where it is now. I guess there are some who would say that makes be a Zionist and if you think it is a swear word then I am proud to let you call me that.

Next. I have posted sources supporting all of the claims I made. Every one.

Most of what Oxy is posting is idiotic on the face of it. He should not be debated, he should be laughed off of the board. He is wrong. Simply wrong. That giant wall of text HE posted proves him wrong.

But you run along now and re-read my posts and the sources I posted.

@oxy. You can get as angry as you like. You are simply posting nonsense. It would do you far too much credit to rehash this shit.

Let me be clear. I do not like most of the governments of the middle east. I do not like theocracies at all. (Including some of Israel's more draconian manifestations of it.)

I particularly dislike the government of your country. It has proclaimed itself to be the sworn enemy of my country and I take that seriously. I am not going to make one of those fatuous statements like "I have nothing against the Iranian people, just the government". Nope. That is ALWAYS disingenuous nonsense. As far as I am concerned you are a sworn enemy of the united states. It the people Iran do not wish to be our enemy then they can rise up and kick the radical Islamists who are pulling your strings out of power. Until you do, you are like the Germans and Japanese during WWII. The enemy of my country.

I support the sanctions against Iran.

I am old enough to remember when Iran was my country's friend. I had then and still have Iranian friends. All of them live in the US or Europe. When the Shah fell your country did not improve. As despotic as he was, the people under him were wealthier, freer and by and large happier. You traded one despot for another in my mind.
The so-called Palestinians are a made up people in a made up nation. They exist as a group because some nations lost a war that they started themselves. They continue to be pawns in the hands of despotic Islamic countries needing them as a rallying cry to cover their own disgusting autocratic rule and oppression.

So along comes a thread by a sworn enemy of Israel making some absurd claim that the so-called Palestinians are remarkable because most of them can read. That is what we call "damning with faint praise".

Clear enough for you.

[skinster]

Now Skinster.

First I am not a Zionist in the way you mean it. Nice try but won't work. I do support a Jewish homeland where it is now. I guess there are some who would say that makes be a Zionist and if you think it is a swear word then I am proud to let you call me that.

Why don't zionists admit they're zionists? The guy with an Israeli flag in his hands at Bae Corbyn's rally a couple of weekends ago denied he was a zionist too.

Drlee, do you know what the name of the ideology is, that supports a Jewish homeland? I'll give you a clue, it's begins with Z.

Next. I have posted sources supporting all of the claims I made. Every one

.

Wikipedia is not a legitimate source for political issues, it is also zionist which explains why you believe the dumb shit on there re: Israel.

I particularly dislike the government of your country. It has proclaimed itself to be the sworn enemy of my country and I take that seriously.

Source?

I guess you forgot that it was your country that aligned itself with groups that murdered the democratically elected government of Iran, placing a brutal dictator in there. That happened in your lifetime and you forget? Did the relationship between America and Iran begin for you after Americans were taken hostage in Iran?

[Oxymandias]

@Drlee

You can get as angry as you like. You are simply posting nonsense. It would do you far too much credit to rehash this shit.

I'm not angry. The only people here aggressive are people like you. Just because I don't post an emoji every so often doesn't mean that I'm angry.

Regardless, you're going to have to iterate on why it's nonsense. Simply saying so isn't an argument. I only rehashed it because new posters here are already making the same arguments I threw in the trash pages ago. However, it is said that one man's trash is another man's treasure.

Let me be clear. I do not like most of the governments of the middle east. I do not like theocracies at all. (Including some of Israel's more draconian manifestations of it.)

I am in agreement.

I particularly dislike the government of your country. It has proclaimed itself to be the sworn enemy of my country and I take that seriously. I am not going to make one of those fatuous statements like "I have nothing against the Iranian people, just the government". Nope. That is ALWAYS disingenuous nonsense. As far as I am concerned you are a sworn enemy of the united states. It the people Iran do not wish to be our enemy then they can rise up and kick the radical Islamists who are pulling your strings out of power. Until you do, you are like the Germans and Japanese during WWII. The enemy of my country.

Yeah man we should totally revolt and tear down our existing infrastructure instead of, you know, reforming our current system. You think Britain was always a democracy? No, it reformed it's political system. That's what reformists are doing.

Furthermore, Iranian people literally have no capability of starting a revolution. That's like saying North Koreans are also to blame for Kim's actions. It's disingenuous and makes no sense. Iranians aren't responsible for what the government says. This is because there is a disconnect between the government and the people. Reformists are trying to reform the system so that the political system represents the people and the mullahs just end up as honorary titles (and not only that, but the mullahs are fine with that). A revolution is bloody and only leads to civil war. We don't want another civil war and end up starting from scratch again, we want to reform the existing system.

But if you want to continue thinking that Iranians are all enemies of the state do so. I only have to ask you, is an Iranian baby recently just born an enemy of the state? Is that baby capable of destroying America? If so, America is pathetic as fuck.

Btw, there is a reason why the Iranian government doesn't like America and that's because the CIA killed off it's democratically elected prime minister in favor of a monarch with no legitimacy or popularity.

I support the sanctions against Iran.

I do too.

I am old enough to remember when Iran was my country's friend. I had then and still have Iranian friends. All of them live in the US or Europe. When the Shah fell your country did not improve. As despotic as he was, the people under him were wealthier, freer and by and large happier. You traded one despot for another in my mind.

No they weren't. This is a myth. Those women in miniskirts not only were upper class women but also didn't have education and we illiterate. The Shah banned newspapers and only had state sanctioned ones (and no, the current Iranian government doesn't do this). Most people under the Shah were poor and illiterate, they didn't have jobs, Iran's natural resources were owned by Americans, the Shah restricted what women could wear, the Shah banned political parties, the Shah had a secret police which killed off dissents (the only comparable agency in Iran is the haram police which isn't a secret police), the Shah had a horrendously centralized political system which was bound to fail, the Shah didn't allow women to be educated and unwealthy men couldn't afford education either, and the Shah had no legitimacy.

As of now, Iran is the leader in STEM cell research (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... -research/), it has the fastest growing scientific growth in the world (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... ce-growth/), 70% Of Iran's science and Engineering Students are women (https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman ... 166a6a44de), women can get their education (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s ... _1989-2005), and the economy is better than it was under the Shah (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... onomy.html).

At this point you're just wrong.

The so-called Palestinians are a made up people in a made up nation.

It existed as a political concept longer than the Kingdom of Israel.

They exist as a group because some nations lost a war that they started themselves

Yeah man, Palestine was definitely created after the 1940 war or whatever. You definitely have proof of this and are not talking out of your ass.

They continue to be pawns in the hands of despotic Islamic countries needing them as a rallying cry to cover their own disgusting autocratic rule and oppression.

I literally discussed this with you and proved you wrong several times. Repeating it isn't going to make it more true than it is. Arab countries don't care about Palestinians. This is why the Israel PM talked about the normalization of Israel amongst Islamic countries because they don't give a fuck.

So along comes a thread by a sworn enemy of Israel making some absurd claim that the so-called Palestinians are remarkable because most of them can read. That is what we call "damning with faint praise".

I don't hate Israel. I don't hate America. I don't hate you. I don't hate anyone in this thread. If I really hated any of you I wouldn't be talking to you. If I really hated Israel I wouldn't waste time trying to defend my points, I would be just like you and make up shit and exaggerate everything.

My points and my sources stand on their own. My words aren't based on nothing, they're based on evidence. They are based on observable facts corroborated by several sources. How ironic it is that those such as you who pretend to value rationality result in posting accusations without evidence, resulting to paranoia of "an enemy", speaking out of ignorance, and stubbornly being in denial of anything that disrupts your viewpoint.

Because my sources don't talk about how great Israel is 24/7, they're Iranian propaganda despite being American and Israeli sources (which implies that Israel is spreading Iranian propaganda). Because I don't speak of how great Israel is and talk about how it won't last forever. The fact that you people believe any nation would last forever is hilarious and depressing (I call it deplarious) . I honestly don't what else to say since you clearly genuinely believe that I am a boogeyman out to get you I doubt anything I say will stick. You can have the last laugh if you want, not that it'll do you any good. However, just to make you uncomfortable as you do so, I'm giving you my permission to do so.

[Zionist Nationalist]

It existed as a political concept longer than the Kingdom of Israel.

Thats a lie

Palestine as a political concept only begun during the 1940s

[Oxymandias]

@Zionist Nationalist

Both you and I know you can't prove that. I have already given evidence that Palestine existed as a political concept for longer than the Kingdom of Israel, don't make me post it again.

[Zionist Nationalist]

@Zionist Nationalist

Both you and I know you can't prove that. I have already given evidence that Palestine existed as a political concept for longer than the Kingdom of Israel, don't make me post it again.

Provide those evidences again

[Oxymandias]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)

Modern archaeology has identified 12 ancient inscriptions from Egyptian and Assyrian records recording likely cognates of Hebrew Pelesheth. The term "Peleset" (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in five inscriptions referring to a neighboring people or land starting from c. 1150 BCE during the Twentieth dynasty of Egypt. The first known mention is at the temple at Medinet Habu which refers to the Peleset among those who fought with Egypt in Ramesses III's reign,[1][2] and the last known is 300 years later on Padiiset's Statue. Seven known Assyrian inscriptions refer to the region of "Palashtu" or "Pilistu", beginning with Adad-nirari III in the Nimrud Slab in c. 800 BCE through to a treaty made by Esarhaddon more than a century later.[3][4] Neither the Egyptian nor the Assyrian sources provided clear regional boundaries for the term.[i]

The term is generally accepted to be a translation of the Biblical name Peleshet (פלשת Pəlésheth, usually transliterated as Philistia). The term and its derivates are used more than 250 times in Masoretic-derived versions of the Hebrew Bible, of which 10 uses are in the Torah, with undefined boundaries, and almost 200 of the remaining references are in the Book of Judges and the Books of Samuel.[3][4][13][18] The term is rarely used in the Septuagint, which used a transliteration Land of Phylistieim (Γῆ τῶν Φυλιστιείμ) different from the contemporary Greek place name Palaistínē (Παλαιστίνη).[17]

Palestine as a political concept existed from the Ancient period to Classical Antiquity to the Middle Ages to the Ottoman Era to the present day totaling at over 2,757 while the Kingdom of Israel only existed as a political concept for only 210 years and only recently came back although the lineage from Ancient Israel and modern Israel is far from linear.