[starman2003]

The failings of this century have more to do with the division of power from the fall of the Ottoman Empire following WWI. Trying to build nations with tribes is difficult.

Undoubtedly. Nevertheless, at least internally, Iraq was relatively stable and unified under Saddam. If a nation composed of disparate elements won't naturally unify, it takes a strongman to keep it together. That worked well enough in Iraq until the neocons, in their infinite naivete, thought they knew more than Saddam about how to govern Iraq.... The seeds of their stupidity had already been sown while shrub I was potus.

[Negotiator]

Um. Why is that even discussed anymore ? As far as I'm aware, Iraq has thankfully turned into a relatively stable democracy ?

[redcarpet]

Um. Why is that even discussed anymore ? As far as I'm aware, Iraq has thankfully turned into a relatively stable democracy ?

Most of its constitution is suspended, the Iraqi PM is a military dictator in all but name. The source of political power in Iraq is not the voters; it's the army.

[starman2003]

Most of its constitution is suspended, the Iraqi PM is a military dictator in all but name. The source of political power in Iraq is not the voters; it's the army.

I'd add that the present Iraqi system has had to be maintained the same way it was created--by overwhelming outside force. It's very doubtful Iraq would've stayed unified had it not been for the international effort to crush ISIS=strong sunni opposition to the post 2003 shia rule. If unity must be the product of force, better to let indigenous elements do it, as under Saddam. At least that way the country takes care of itself, and there's a more lasting and stable rule by those genuinely capable of it.

[Rancid]

Most of its constitution is suspended, the Iraqi PM is a military dictator in all but name. The source of political power in Iraq is not the voters; it's the army.

This is perfect for them!

I firmly believe much of the middle east just simply doesn't have the culture to sustain a democracy. Hence, it was a mistake to topple those regimes. They seem to do well with dictators.

[One Degree]

Many of those who would overthrow every dictatorship out of ‘righteousness’ would allow Jerry Brown unlimited terms.

[jimjam]

There were maybe 3 people in America who do not remember where they were on the day JFK was murdered. George H.W.Bush was one of them. Where was George on 11/22/63?

[One Degree]

There were maybe 3 people in America who do not remember where they were on the day JFK was murdered. George H.W.Bush was one of them. Where was George on 11/22/63?

Is that true? I guess it would only be those who had immediate access to TV who had the strongest impressions. I was sitting in class and they brought in a TV. I didn’t like JFK at all then, but I still remember.
Bush would have been a lot older and less susceptible to the emotional impact.

[starman2003]

This is perfect for them!

I firmly believe much of the middle east just simply doesn't have the culture to sustain a democracy. Hence, it was a mistake to topple those regimes. They seem to do well with dictators.

Of course. Back around 2002-3, I strongly opposed the invasion of Iraq for this reason. As I wrote then, imposing American democracy on Iraq is like transplanting a palm tree from Florida to Maine.

[skinster]

It was never about "imposing democracy" though.

I firmly believe much of the middle east just simply doesn't have the culture to sustain a democracy. Hence, it was a mistake to topple those regimes. They seem to do well with dictators.

Americans should focus on their own lack of democracy or choice of two sides of the same dictatorship, before throwing stones at countries they've destroyed.

[Rancid]

Americans should focus on their own lack of democracy or choice of two sides of the same dictatorship, before throwing stones at countries they've destroyed.

I said it was a mistake to destroy those countries. They are better left alone.

I'm agreeing with you that the US destroys most countries they touch.

[skinster]

It wasn't a mistake either, it was planned and the U.S. knew what the consequences would be and was informed of the same before it took place.

[Rancid]

It wasn't a mistake either, it was planned and the U.S. knew what the consequences would be and was informed of the same before it took place.

Yes, I agree. Fair enough that it wasn't a mistake.

[skinster]

Indeed.

[Rich]

Filthy Marxist lies. George W Bush's liberation of Iraq was the closest we'll probably ever see to the mythological 2nd coming of Christ. In the 60s and 70s Iraq was one of the fastest growing economies in the world. The economy went into decline when Saddam took over and this decline started while the West was backing Saddam's regime. It wasn't the West that destroyed Iraq it was Saddam. Since W Bush (peace be upon his name) removed Saddam, Iraq has again been one of the world's fastest growing economies expanding something like eight times since the liberation.

If you confine the figures to the Shia and Kurdish areas the figures are even better. neither we nor Iraq's nor Syria's government is responsible for the behaviour of the Sunni Arabs or the necessary response. Look at at the aftermath of second Falujha, how is that one jot different from the way Syria's Sunni Arab cities look today? Yes I could weep when I look at the terrible, unnecessary destruction of the Sunni Arab cities. We and the Syrian armed forces should have been using short acting chemical weapons, so the buildings could be used by decent people once they had been cleansed of terrorists.

[skinster]

Filthy Marxist lies. George W Bush's liberation of Iraq was the closest we'll probably ever see to the mythological 2nd coming of Christ.

I stopped there. You are nuts.

[Rich]

I stopped there.

That was probably wise. All my posts come with an implicit trigger warning:

This post may contain facts and logic deeply disturbing to leftie viewers. Viewer discretion is advised.

[skinster]

Facts are never presented in your all-over-the-place posts. Your opinion is only that.

[Heisenberg]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the peaceful death of a long-retired politician at the age of 94 doesn't seem like much of a "win" for the left. The celebrations in this thread strike me as rather pathetic.

[skinster]

Nobody claimed it's a "win for the left", just countering all the bullshit revisionism about another mass murderer that's pumped pretty much all over the mainstream media by dumb cucks, and of course, ITT.