[Negotiator]

I'm pretty shocked that EVERYBODY in this thread takes a side.

Are you unaware that if two people fight, they BOTH might be shitheads ?

We've seen it before in Syria. On one side Assad, on the other ISIS. Who is worse ? Probably ISIS. But Assad aint a great guy either, for sure. Frankly its obvious he tortures and murders people. He doesnt want to commit genocide, like ISIS, but this aint a nice guy.

And that seems to be the case, here, as well. One guy who cannot manage proper elections and another who just tries to take over.

These are TWO dictators. Neither is a great guy. Whoever you pick, you still end up with shit on your hands.

Reality check for Maduro fans though:

Thats completely irrelevant though. Administrations of other countrys get no word whatsoever in what politicians receive a mandate in a country. The people of that country decide that. Nobody else.

[...] Since when did democratic support imply legitimacy? [...]

Democratic elections are the ONLY source for legitimacy.

[...] Under that same argument, any attempt to depose Adolf Hitler prior to 1939 would have been unjustified irrespective of his domestic policies because he was likewise elected democratically. [...]

Germany was a dictatorship since the coup in 1933, there havent been any actual democratic elections after that point.

I'm confused why you dont know that. I dont expect people from other countries to know as much about Germany as I, as a german, do.

But that Hitler was a dictator, that should be common knowledge for sure. Hitler started, after all, world war 2. Thats kind of an important historic event in recent history, that affected the whole world.

And yes Hitler's NSDAP had elections, too, but all you could vote for was the NSDAP. And these elections havent been secret, either, so if you didnt vote NSDAP, you would get in trouble. So naturally the NSDAP received a near 100% approval. Just like the party of the soviet union etc. Thats not a democratic election.

Otherwise you'll have to name a LOT of countries democracies, like the soviet union, or Saddam Husseins Iraq, etc. They all still absurdely claimed to be democracies.

[JohnRawls]

I'm pretty shocked that EVERYBODY in this thread takes a side.

Are you unaware that if two people fight, they BOTH might be shitheads ?

We've seen it before in Syria. On one side Assad, on the other ISIS. Who is worse ? Probably ISIS. But Assad aint a great guy either, for sure. Frankly its obvious he tortures and murders people. He doesnt want to commit genocide, like ISIS, but this aint a nice guy.

And that seems to be the case, here, as well. One guy who cannot manage proper elections and another who just tries to take over.

These are TWO dictators. Neither is a great guy. Whoever you pick, you still end up with shit on your hands.





Thats completely irrelevant though. Administrations of other countrys get no word whatsoever in what politicians receive a mandate in a country. The people of that country decide that. Nobody else.





Democratic elections are the ONLY source for legitimacy.





Germany was a dictatorship since the coup in 1933, there havent been any actual democratic elections after that point.

I'm confused why you dont know that. I dont expect people from other countries to know as much about Germany as I, as a german, do.

But that Hitler was a dictator, that should be common knowledge for sure. Hitler started, after all, world war 2. Thats kind of an important historic event in recent history, that affected the whole world.

And yes Hitler's NSDAP had elections, too, but all you could vote for was the NSDAP. And these elections havent been secret, either, so if you didnt vote NSDAP, you would get in trouble. So naturally the NSDAP received a near 100% approval. Just like the party of the soviet union etc. Thats not a democratic election.

Otherwise you'll have to name a LOT of countries democracies, like the soviet union, or Saddam Husseins Iraq, etc. They all still absurdely claimed to be democracies.

Well, we know who Maduro is and what he represents. There is a hope for change when it comes to Guiado. I am not saying that he will not be a dictator but there is a good chance he will change the things for the better. The elections in Venezuela were not recognized by its own parliament and many countries in the region. Hopefully Guiado will stick to the democratic principles and move the country in a more liberal directions. (Which includes respecting democracy). Guiado was appointed by the parliament as a interim-leader of sorts and the Venezualan constitutions allows for that.

I am a bit sceptical of not calling it an intervention or a coup because we are kinda intervening by supporting him. But on the other hand, this was a part of the Venezuelan constitution as i understand so what Guiado and the parliament did is not illegal.

[Heisenberg]

No he didn't, it was the same boring shit as before, only this time he's moved past supporting the opposition like he tried to do the last time we got into it after I showed him what type of nonsense he was supporting. So I suppose there's some progress.

I don't even know what "trying to support the opposition" means, unless you think I'm sending money to right-wing Venezuelan political parties.

For the record, I just looked through my posts from "last time", and I had almost nothing to say about the opposition beyond this: "I don't recall saying the opposition was popular - I'm very ready to believe that they aren't". Not exactly a ringing endorsement, if you ask me.

My comments in the previous thread on Venezuela were primarily directed at the rather dictatorial tactic of Maduro creating a parliament filled entirely with his own supporters and then passing a law through that parliament banning his opponents from running against him in an election. So in other words, not expressing support for the opposition, but criticising a transparent power grab.

Of course, in your eyes, anything beyond obsessively praising the dear leader makes someone a "CIA plant", so trying to discuss this with you is obviously pointless.

People doing the 'you love blah if you don't support more U.S. regime change' remain ever so boring.

If you would be so kind as to point to a single post on this forum in the last five-and-a-half years where I have said anything of the kind, then I'd really appreciate it.

[Rancid]

I wonder if the Venezuela threads should be consolidated into one? @noemon?


If I were the US, one thing I would do is freeze the accounts of all the underlings of Maduro. Basically tell them "I'll unfreeze the accounts once you change allegiance"

I'm sure it's doable, most of the underlings of any power structure, most especially an authoritarian power structure are usually just in it for themselves. If you can offer them a way to survive under the new government, they would likely do it. It's a myth that a dictator has all the power. They only have power when their underlings are loyal, so if you can break that loyalty, that's the key. The way to break the loyalty is to offer better rewards than the current leader. It could be monetary, power, influence, etc. etc. In this case the incentive would be that they all get to keep the riches they gained under Maduro.

I've been thinking about this situation more, and I do want to see the government flip to a more western friendly & Latin American friendly government. I think it's important to keep Chinese influence out of Latin America. I think it would do more damage than American influence.

My Venezuelan friends in Miami would like to see this change as well.

[Patrickov]

I'm pretty shocked that EVERYBODY in this thread takes a side.

Are you unaware that if two people fight, they BOTH might be shitheads ?

We've seen it before in Syria. On one side Assad, on the other ISIS. Who is worse ? Probably ISIS. But Assad ain't a great guy either, for sure. Frankly its obvious he tortures and murders people. He doesn't want to commit genocide, like ISIS, but this ain't a nice guy.

And that seems to be the case, here, as well. One guy who cannot manage proper elections and another who just tries to take over.

These are TWO dictators. Neither is a great guy. Whoever you pick, you still end up with shit on your hands.

There has to be a winner. That's why we take sides.

IMHO Maduro failed royally, so it's necessary give the other guy a chance as he has the biggest probability of winning (and have the people win). If that guy fail, let this game begin again.

It's nonsense to waste time finding a perfect solution, if that means uncountable human lives would be lost during the process.

[B0ycey]

Whether you support Maduro or not, we need to stop expecting US intervention on any nation that dares to oppose Western interest. For a start it never plays out as we hope and second Venezuela needs to be able to have the freedom to succeed. Do we think US sanctions doesn't harbor economic turmoil or something?

Perhaps the answer is the Chinese approach. Industrialisation and maybe they should promote a tourist haven too. Also they would be better off aligning their oil to a Chinese market as the US are no friend to socialism.

[Patrickov]

I wonder if the Venezuela threads should be consolidated into one? @noemon?


If I were the US, one thing I would do is freeze the accounts of all the underlings of Maduro. Basically tell them "I'll unfreeze the accounts once you change allegiance"

I'm sure it's doable, most of the underlings of any power structure, most especially an authoritarian power structure are usually just in it for themselves. If you can offer them a way to survive under the new government, they would likely do it. It's a myth that a dictator has all the power. They only have power when their underlings are loyal, so if you can break that loyalty, that's the key. The way to break the loyalty is to offer better rewards than the current leader. It could be monetary, power, influence, etc. etc. In this case the incentive would be that they all get to keep the riches they gained under Maduro.

I've been thinking about this situation more, and I do want to see the government flip to a more western friendly & Latin American friendly government. I think it's important to keep Chinese influence out of Latin America. I think it would do more damage than American influence.

My Venezuelan friends in Miami would like to see this change as well.

In fact, as a Hong-konger I am eager to see pro-Western force win as well. May they win all the way into China and Russia!!!!

[Patrickov]

Whether you support Maduro or not, we need to stop expecting US intervention on any nation that dares to oppose Western interest. For a start it never plays out as we hope and second Venezuela needs to be able to have the freedom to succeed. Do we think US sanctions doesn't harbor economic turmoil or something?

Perhaps the answer is the Chinese approach. Industrialisation and maybe they should promote a tourist haven too. Also they would be better off aligning their oil to a Chinese market as the US are no friend to socialism.

I am sorry but all those countries challenging the West, like Russia and China, have very bad records domestically. We Hongkongers are already facing immense incompetence on the part of the pro-Chinese officials. I do not see how the Chinese approach is doing any good. They have actually brought down rule-of-law (replaced with deciding punishment according to your allegiance to the Chinese Commies), as well as intensifying price inflation (esp. in terms of property price), economic inequality, social injustice, and most of all, food health hazards.

[Rancid]

In fact, as a Hong-konger I am eager to see pro-Western force win as well. May they win all the way into China and Russia!!

I can sympathize with the Hong Kong situation. It's really sad that Cantonese culture is getting destroyed by the mainland. My wife's family are Hong Kongers, I hear a lot of the fucked up shit that's going on there from them.

[B0ycey]

My comment was not intended to be an endorsement for China but a solution for Venezuela. Venezuela have done many wrong things to achieve a successful economy when given the biggest prize of all - vast oil fields. But when America stacks the cards against you, you are fucked. So sorry, I do not think all the blame can be put on Maduro or even Chavez. Let's not forget America, the nation who actively tries to destroy any nation that even dares to wear the Socialism banner. And that is why Venezuela should create and promote trade relations with China and tell America to fuck off. But first they need to also promote a Soviet style industrialisation program - minus the Gulags.

[Zionist Nationalist]

My comment was not intended to be an endorsement for China but a solution for Venezuela. Venezuela have done many wrong things to achieve a successful economy when given the biggest prize of all - vast oil fields. , but when America stacks the cards against you, you are fucked. So, sorry I do not think all the blame can be put on Maduro or even Chavez. Lets not forget America, the nation who actively tries to destroy any nation that even dares to wear the Socialism banner. And that is why Venezuela should create and promote trade relations with China and tell America to fuck off. But first they need to also promote a Soviet style industrialisation program - minus the Gulags.

lol China cant do shit in Venezuela its not their playground
the US can simply put its navy around Venezuelan coastline blockade them and none will be able to do anything about it.

But first they need to also promote a Soviet style industrialisation program

delusional dreams for delusional people

[Rancid]

lol China cant do shit in Venezuela its not their playground

Don't be so sure of that. China is already meddling in the affairs Latin American countries. For example, just a few months ago, they managed to get the Dominican Republic to sever all business and diplomatic ties with Taiwan. That's just a small start.

Also, they even did election meddling (mostly through bribes) in the Maldives and Sri Lanka. Lucky India step up and managed to stem the election meddling in both those places away from the pro-Chinese bought and paid for puppets. They have the resources to do similar in Latin America.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is interesting how many people here think national sovereignty is irrelevant.

[Rancid]

It is interesting how many people here think national sovereignty is irrelevant.

I don't understand what this means.

My general stance is, there's going ot be meddling/intervention by all powerful nations on the planet. Might as well be meddled by the least of all the evils.

[B0ycey]

lol China cant do shit in Venezuela its not their playground
the US can simply put its navy around Venezuelan coastline blockade them and none will be able to do anything about it.

My point exactly. All these posts on the corruption of Maduro and how Venezuela are fucking their own economy and not one mention on American intervention and the lengths they will go to to maintain their own interests.

Perhaps it is true that Venezuela needs to change their economic model, but asking for any US intervention is simply changing an elected government into a Western Dictator puppet. How democratic.

#coupsarefineifitservesyourowninterestsapparently

[Rancid]

My point exactly. All these posts on the corruption of Maduro and how Venezuela are fucking their own economy and not one mention on American intervention and the lengths they will go to to maintain their own interests.

Perhaps it is true that Venezuela needs to change their economic model, but asking for any US intervention is simply changing an elected government into a Western Dictator puppet. How democratic.

#coupsarefineifitservesyourowninterestsapparently

It's unavoidable that larger powers will intervene. The question becomes, who is less worse? This is the practical outlook. Now of course, I have my thoughts on what should the ideal be, but the ideal is totally unachievable. Efforts to achieve will results in a worse off situation. If that makes sense.

What I think about sovereignty, democracy, etc. etc. is orthogonal to my points.

[Beren]

It's the Venezuelan military that will intervene sooner or later. I'm sure they're intensively considering whether how the country should be rebooted.

[Pants-of-dog]

In Latin America, it is obvious that the USA is a worse evil than China.

[Rancid]

In Latin America, it is obvious that the USA is a worse evil than China.

ok

[B0ycey]

It's unavoidable that larger powers will intervene. The question becomes, who is less worse?

To Venezuela, America is worse. Once relations between Bush and Chavez went south, America went for Venezuela like they did with Chile and Allende. So they should actually just focus on China now. It isn't even like a choice.