[Zionist Nationalist]

Both living under Western-driven collapse.

Collapse is deadly, and that's why the West tries to provoke it wherever its other forms of extortion don't work.

Provoking collapse is just one of the West's medicines.

But why those leaders are always stepping on obvious traps?
I hear alot of legitimate criticism from opposition in Russia. they say Crimea is not worth it this region only takes money from the state plus the sanctions a huge economic loss
but lets say that Crimean annexation is something that is debatable due to the geopolitical importance of this region
the government is not even trying to take care of its citizens and instead spends billions on useless bullshit and giving away some of those billions to oligarchs and Kadyrov a Chechen brutal dictator and a brainless warlord

Venezuela should have dropped socialism and joined the west after Chavez Im sure most citizens dont give a shit about Maduro and his government and just want to live a normal life

[QatzelOk]

Venezuela should have dropped socialism and joined the west after Chavez Im sure most citizens dont give a shit about Maduro and his government and just want to live a normal life

Venezuela hosts millions of Colombian refugees who fled the death squads and misery of neighboring Colombia, and Colombia hosts millions of Venezuelans fleeing the conditions caused by USA sanctions and capitalist sabotage of infra. "Part of the west" Colombia is the USA's most important source of cocaine and a country that has an unregulated mining industry that pollutes and contributes nothing to social programs.

This is what you think Venezuela should join?

Colombian death squads exploiting coronavirus lockdown to kill activists

In 2020, already 50 social leaders assassinated in Colombia

More than 70 social leaders killed in Colombia in 2020




cocaine smuggling routes

Like a mafia leader asking the widow of one of its victims to "join with us!"

[Zionist Nationalist]

@QatzelOk
If it wasnt for the US colombia would be controlled by a drug lord (escobar)
Failed nations always blaming external powers while unable to fix their problems by their own what does it say about those nations?

[skinster]

Failed nations always blaming external powers while unable to fix their problems by their own what does it say about those nations?

You'd have something resembling an argument if Venezuela wasn't under economic terrorism from the U.S.

Still, despite the sanctions and other attacks, the majority in Venezuela support Maduro.

[skinster]

Random Guaido is at it again.

[QatzelOk]

A lot of countries (Haiti, Mali, Yemen) are in much worse shape than Venezuela, so the "emergency" that Joe Clark and ilk want to stress is the emergency of seizing all that oil and the urgency of destroying any kind of independent ideas in Latin America.

That the opinion piece calls Random Guaido "the president recognized by 59 nation states" rather than "the US-chosen vassal rejected by 150" is all you need to know. But the selective compassion for "the Venezuelan people" that has been the call to arms to many destructive wars to appropriate resources and control of nation states around the globe... means that our oligarchs aren't even trying anymore. Perhaps they figure now that we're all Corona-stupid, we'll fall for anything, and can't go outside to protest any bullshit they feed us.

[skinster]

The terrorists are at it again:

[skinster]

[wat0n]

Since, as it turns out, the military seems to have enough cohesion around the government as to make Guaido's gamble to fail (the only chance of this to work was for the military to take his side, but those who did were quickly suppressed and left) and now oil is essentially worthless, I suspect what will eventually happen is that Venezuela either becomes too poor to be relevant regionally again (and a major exporter of crime and migrants), the current government remains in place but drops socialism and switches to a market-based policy (entirely possible too) or will try some foreign adventurism that turns awry by justifying an international intervention. I suspect the latter is the most likely but option two is also possible.

Where? Simple: Venezuela has claimed the Guyana Essequiba since the 19th century, and it turns out that the territory's territorial waters have significant oil reserves (which were discovered in 2015). Indeed, in recent years Venezuela has been harassing oil exploration vessels and Guyana hasn't been too happy about it.

Now, why did Venezuela fail anyway? Simple, too: It decided to make its economy wholly dependent on Government and oil (with the latter funding most of the former, including the public administration, social policy, foreign policy and also the state-owned enterprises, including nationalized businesses) without saving the windfall profits just in case, and fracking made oil unprofitable for Venezuela. The government, instead of acknowledging this and risking being kicked out, preferred to just use seignorage to fund itself, essentially levying the inflation tax on the population. Even worse, many of PDVSA's petrochemical engineers emigrated to the US when the government cracked on the company's workers in 2003 (part of the 2002 coup attempt's fallout), leaving few experienced engineers there to make sure the company's infrastructure would be well kept, allowing the company to at least continue operating normally. So not only oil became dirt cheap but also PDVSA was unable to cope in any way with it and the government was both unwilling and unable to invest on it during the good times to at least avoid killing the cash cow (which is not only dead now but its rotten meat was almost wholly eaten as well).

This was all predictable (and I was betting that's how it was going to end even before joining this place, since there was little indication the Venezuelan government was saving to prepare for bad times), but just like it's possible to know that a region's geological plaques are accumulating too much energy that will be released in the form of an earthquake without knowing with any decent precision when will this happen, it was possible to tell this was how Venezuela was going to end whenever oil prices went down (and they would, be it by the emerging of an alternative like fracking in 2014 or a recession like the one that's being caused by the pandemic now).

PS: Added a small point about Venezuela's government not saving the windfall profits. Had they done so, maybe they would have averted disaster if they realized it's not easy to beat the Dutch disease. And indeed I mentioned even in this forum, as early as 2011, that it remained to be seen if Chavismo was going to be able to survive lower oil prices, and that it depended a lot on whether it was saving enough to do so.

[skinster]

I see waton just came back to PoFo to bitch about left-leaning states. How very not interesting.

[wat0n]

You meant left-leaning dictatorships, didn't you?

[Tainari88]

You meant left-leaning dictatorships, didn't you?

I think the USA needs to stop its interfering in other governments and other nations. Regime change going badly is a sad and consistent picture of the USA gov't's failed policies in the ME and in Latin American politics of the past. They interfere in everyone's economies, politics and lives trying to get access to cheap labor and cheap resources and a place to land their military endeavors.

They are now going to be facing a deep financial crisis (the USA is), many other nations have been suffering under horribly awful neoliberal economies that are not worth shit for working class people.

I hope all the right wing assholes who love capitalism wind up eating the rotten carcasses of their own doing and I hope they face angry redneck mobs and get their asses kicked politically all over the world. They should be hated deeply for their selfish, nasty greedy pig ways all over the world. Bringing misery and unemployment, instability and having working class people who want change having to put up with constant rich selfish bastard who only care about their profit margins being inhumane awful people who are lower than cockroaches in terms of ethics or principles or morals.

Let them pay for their constant NOSY and failed attempts at subverting foreign governments. If you can't respect other people's struggle. STAY THE HELL OUT.

[wat0n]

I think the USA needs to stop its interfering in other governments and other nations. Regime change going badly is a sad and consistent picture of the USA gov't's failed policies in the ME and in Latin American politics of the past. They interfere in everyone's economies, politics and lives trying to get access to cheap labor and cheap resources and a place to land their military endeavors.

They are now going to be facing a deep financial crisis (the USA is), many other nations have been suffering under horribly awful neoliberal economies that are not worth shit for working class people.

I hope all the right wing assholes who love capitalism wind up eating the rotten carcasses of their own doing and I hope they face angry redneck mobs and get their asses kicked politically all over the world. They should be hated deeply for their selfish, nasty greedy pig ways all over the world. Bringing misery and unemployment, instability and having working class people who want change having to put up with constant rich selfish bastard who only care about their profit margins being inhumane awful people who are lower than cockroaches in terms of ethics or principles or morals.

Let them pay for their constant NOSY and failed attempts at subverting foreign governments. If you can't respect other people's struggle. STAY THE HELL OUT.

The US has been rather mild in dealing with Venezuela, Trump's rhetoric aside - particularly during Obama's years, which is when inflation began to spiral out of control.

Venezuela's economic troubles are entirely of their own making, to the point that even a quick read of Das Kapital, chapter 1, would predict the hyperinflation they are having.

[QatzelOk]

The US has been rather mild in dealing with Venezuela...

You mean that the USA has been much more violent towards other developing countries than it has towards Venezuela... so far. All it's done, mainly, is tried to coup-detat its government, and starve its people to death with sanctions. This is "mild" the same way that skin cancer or breast cancer are "mild" - only mild when it doesn't affect you.

The USA's ability to project violence throughout the world and force everyone to believe its lies... is dependent on the world's perception of the USA as "a country to imitate." rather than "a gangster to pal up with."

Now that it's bankrupt and ungovernable, the gloss might be gone. But declining gangsters can still cause a lot of damage.

[wat0n]

You mean that the USA has been much more violent towards other developing countries than it has towards Venezuela... so far. All it's done, mainly, is tried to coup-detat its government, and starve its people to death with sanctions. This is "mild" the same way that skin cancer or breast cancer are "mild" - only mild when it doesn't affect you.

The USA's ability to project violence throughout the world and force everyone to believe its lies... is dependent on the world's perception of the USA as "a country to imitate." rather than "a gangster to pal up with."

Now that it's bankrupt and ungovernable, the gloss might be gone. But declining gangsters can still cause a lot of damage.

No, it's been mild in the sense that Venezuela's economy collapsed long before the US applied sanctions on it. Inflation had already spiraled out of control before the first sanctions following the elections of their politburo (which they call "Asamblea Constituyente").

[Tainari88]

No, it's been mild in the sense that Venezuela's economy collapsed long before the US applied sanctions on it. Inflation had already spiraled out of control before the first sanctions following the elections of their politburo (which they call "Asamblea Constituyente").

What I find fascinating Wat0n is how people who despise the Left in Latin American nations never examine why the Left's leaders wind up taking over a government in a country. That is what fascinates me.

Before Hugo Chavez in Venezuela who was running Venezuela? The Left? No. It gets so bad with the elite and the wealthy who refuse to do a damn thing for the poor in their own nations that the typical Leftist speeches of class conflict find fertile ground.

I think you anti Leftists need to start examining why people like Hugo Chavez are able to take over from the Right Elite in nations....like Venezuela.

The Right says things like because the people are ignorant, illiterate, poor and or the people are at fault. It is always about avoiding taking full responsibility for a society that is in turmoil. Why not stop the bullshit about why the Right doesn't solve problems for poor people in Latin America and face up to the fact that the Right doesn't care about poor people and only seeks to destroy them with exploitation, corrupt practices, kissing ass to Yankee Superpowers and others so they can prosper at their expense.

You have to offer people who are desperate for change something better. Something where they can see tangible change.

When things never get solved either by the Right or the Left governments elected to do the changes? Who loses? The people do.

The problem Wat0n are people who don't care about what it feels like, is like and will be like to be in socioeconomic positions of unmet human needs.

Fix the problem Wat0n. Not with your class of people. No. But for the entire society. If all you care about are the people doing well and being wealthy as the vast majority don't do well and suffer? You are asking for a Leftist solution. That defines our politics. Class conflict. Generated by inequality. Unless you tackle that problem? You will have Leftist politics til kingdom come.

My question for you Wat0n and don't side step it at all---is how do you stabilize a nation like Venezuela if the ones who want it to fail as a government always only back the wealthy and the wealthy never are the majority in any nation that is in the developing world?

Deal with injustice. Period.

You might not like Maduro. You might not like socialism or the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela. But what did the Caracan elitists who created such despair pre Chavez? How have they thought about the issues that made the Chavista movement surge---how have they solved the original problem of poor people not being satisfied with the state of affairs that led to the change?

Can you tackle that?

The Right doesn't give it enough thought. It is all about who cares about the poor....they are there because of what? I wish you would self reflect.

La conciencia. Donde esta?

[wat0n]

What I find fascinating Wat0n is how people who despise the Left in Latin American nations never examine why the Left's leaders wind up taking over a government in a country. That is what fascinates me.

Before Hugo Chavez in Venezuela who was running Venezuela? The Left? No. It gets so bad with the elite and the wealthy who refuse to do a damn thing for the poor in their own nations that the typical Leftist speeches of class conflict find fertile ground.

I think you anti Leftists need to start examining why people like Hugo Chavez are able to take over from the Right Elite in nations....like Venezuela.

The Right says things like because the people are ignorant, illiterate, poor and or the people are at fault. It is always about avoiding taking full responsibility for a society that is in turmoil. Why not stop the bullshit about why the Right doesn't solve problems for poor people in Latin America and face up to the fact that the Right doesn't care about poor people and only seeks to destroy them with exploitation, corrupt practices, kissing ass to Yankee Superpowers and others so they can prosper at their expense.

You have to offer people who are desperate for change something better. Something where they can see tangible change.

When things never get solved either by the Right or the Left governments elected to do the changes? Who loses? The people do.

The problem Wat0n are people who don't care about what it feels like, is like and will be like to be in socioeconomic positions of unmet human needs.

Fix the problem Wat0n. Not with your class of people. No. But for the entire society. If all you care about are the people doing well and being wealthy as the vast majority don't do well and suffer? You are asking for a Leftist solution. That defines our politics. Class conflict. Generated by inequality. Unless you tackle that problem? You will have Leftist politics til kingdom come.

My question for you Wat0n and don't side step it at all---is how do you stabilize a nation like Venezuela if the ones who want it to fail as a government always only back the wealthy and the wealthy never are the majority in any nation that is in the developing world?

Deal with injustice. Period.

You might not like Maduro. You might not like socialism or the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela. But what did the Caracan elitists who created such despair pre Chavez? How have they thought about the issues that made the Chavista movement surge---how have they solved the original problem of poor people not being satisfied with the state of affairs that led to the change?

Can you tackle that?

The Right doesn't give it enough thought. It is all about who cares about the poor....they are there because of what? I wish you would self reflect.

La conciencia. Donde esta?

Who said that the alternative to Maduro was any good either? Yes, it's not hard to tell how Chavez was elected: The Venezuelan elites at the time, like the ones who are in power now, were corrupt to the core. But does that excuse what's going on there today? Did the current regime help the poor all that much if it just preferred to shower them in money while oil was expensive, to then just hit them with hyperinflation when oil prices went south?

The former Venezuelan political class was corrupt to the core, but it could at least have a somewhat functioning country. It also showered the poor in money when oil was expensive in the '70s, but it was responsible enough to avoid getting into the disaster that Venezuela is now, and eventually left power peacefully when it became clear that the Venezuelan population had gotten tired of it. The PSUV doesn't even have that going for itself, and a peaceful solution seems unlikely.

[skinster]

On the attempted coup that's mainly being ignored in a lot of media.

[Zionist Nationalist]

I like how this twitter guys says "The world, and history, will never forget" lol
nobody cares its the first attempt there will be more
Maduro is a political dead man walking

[skinster]

nobody cares its the first attempt there will be more

No it's not. Read the thread.