End of maduro - hopefully. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14982460
Victoribus Spolia wrote:

I've tried not to make a habit of caring too much what the tweed-jacket wearing, fountain-pen wielding, "warriors or the working man" think when it comes to the well-being of nations whose only real interest to them is as ammo in their war to constantly virtue signal against their home nations because of a sense of bitterness over their own student debt and the rising price of their local "south-of-the-border" cuisine of choice.

Fucking capitalists musta done it!!! Support MADURO!!!


Couple this with the MASSIVE strike in Matamoros.....The Capitalist days are numbered!
#14982462
Victoribus Spolia wrote:fountain-pen wielding

What's wrong with fountain pens? :*(

(Having said that, I haven't actually used a fountain pen since I was about 8...)
#14982465
JohnRawls wrote:Pretty much VS. Intervention is not the only consequences though but it is one of the most severest ones. We live in a liberal rules based order in all Western countries without an exception. So it is a given that we will at the least critize any country that is gonna try to violate that order either internationally or domestically.Without getting in to much detail, are we arrogant for believing that our order of things is superior? No, we are not. We have achieved contingent success in the last 100+ years. Majority of the last 100+ years can be described as countries outside of the liberal order trying to copy our technology, our know-how, etc but not our values and then failing in the end.


Criticism is one thing, heck I don't even have a problem with refusing trade to nations you disagree with, but violence and regime-change is something completely different.

The United States began the post-colonial liberal justification for intervention on the premise of the Domino-Theory; it needed some reason as to why a peaceful, semi-libertarian, and democratic state would want to invade other nations and support coups, etc., the world over. Now, it doesn't even seem to think it needs a justification. I think this is problematic.

Whether or not western values are superior is quite irrelevant; I believe they are, but I think our values are in decline and they are in decline partly because of our statist megalomania of which interventionist neo-colonialism is but a symptom.

Case in point, you bring up how other peoples want to be like us; but I don't think the areas of which they want to be like us are enviable at all; they want cheap prosperity.

Do they really want our feminism, divorce-rates, and welfare dependency? Our degeneracy? Thats shit comes with our current rates of cheap prosperity and safety bankrolled and provided by western nation-states. Crap that would never exist in a state of pure liberty, which is a truly unique western idea. Liberty.


I don't see how this global order you describe in anywhere close to approximating such a truly western concept and any REAL western values; like Christianity, Patriarchal-Monogamy, Life, Liberty, and Property.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rancid wrote:Couple this with the MASSIVE strike in Matamoros.....The Capitalist days are numbered!


Indeed, I can see the proletarian masses now, the day of the International Revolution is now upon us! :lol:

Heisenberg wrote:What's wrong with fountain pens? (Having said that, I haven't actually used a fountain pen since I was about 8...)



Are you triggered over a pen? :excited:

Its cool, I actually kinda like tweed jackets. My stereotype was more about how non-working class the so-called representatives of the working class appear.

It wasn't a dig against fountain pens per se. Take heart ol' chap.
#14982482
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Criticism is one thing, heck I don't even have a problem with refusing trade to nations you disagree with, but violence and regime-change is something completely different.

The United States began the post-colonial liberal justification for intervention on the premise of the Domino-Theory; it needed some reason as to why a peaceful, semi-libertarian, and democratic state would want to invade other nations and support coups, etc., the world over. Now, it doesn't even seem to think it needs a justification. I think this is problematic.

Whether or not western values are superior is quite irrelevant; I believe they are, but I think our values are in decline and they are in decline partly because of our statist megalomania of which interventionist neo-colonialism is but a symptom.

Case in point, you bring up how other peoples want to be like us; but I don't think the areas of which they want to be like us are enviable at all; they want cheap prosperity.

Do they really want our feminism, divorce-rates, and welfare dependency? Our degeneracy? Thats shit comes with our current rates of cheap prosperity and safety bankrolled and provided by western nation-states. Crap that would never exist in a state of pure liberty, which is a truly unique western idea. Liberty.


I don't see how this global order you describe in anywhere close to approximating such a truly western concept and any REAL western values; like Christianity, Patriarchal-Monogamy, Life, Liberty, and Property.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Indeed, I can see the proletarian masses now, the day of the International Revolution is now upon us! :lol:




Are you triggered over a pen? :excited:

Its cool, I actually kinda like tweed jackets. My stereotype was more about how non-working class the so-called representatives of the working class appear.

It wasn't a dig against fountain pens per se. Take heart ol' chap.


I get it what you are trying to say. You are disputing the flavour of liberalism thought, as i said, there are differences even within the West. If we roughly devide the liberal order between left liberals and right liberals then you basically want the social policies of the right liberals and the foreighn relations concept of the left liberals. You are not really disputing the core values of liberalism though: rule of law, private property, seperation of power, democratic election etc

You are trying to put all Western countries under 1 banner of sorts but there are differences between the western countries. Nor all of us are even European. Look at Japan for example. It is not European but it is western with its unique culture and views. So the things that you argue against are just the details that you like or dont like basically within the framework of liberalism.

Liberalism in itself doesnt mean that you will instantly have to take the welfare programs, feminism, etc
#14982494
JohnRawls wrote:Reality check for Maduro fans though:

There are 3 countries i think that support Maduro in the whole north, central and south America.
Around 10+ countries that support Guaido.
Literally almost everyone hates Maduro/Venezuela in the region right now.

Here is a map(I think only Cuba is missing from the list but i think it is because they haven't really given a message regarding the situation yet):


Yes, western countries often support anti democratic movements in order to supoort capitalism. US foreign policy is basically all about that.

It is one of the ways that the west got rich, and how North Ametica enriched itself at the expense of Latin America, and how the upper classes in Latin America enriched themselves at the expense of the working classes.

I am not surprised by self serving behaviour.
#14982519
Oscar De Leon!

A famous Venezuelan that lives in Miami now. My parents would blast this song crazy loud on the weekends. :)

I don't know what his views are on the situation there other than him saying he didn't think he was going to bother voting in Venezuelan elections last year.
[youtube]_V9XPiogHh4[/youtube]
#14982520
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, western countries often support anti democratic movements in order to supoort capitalism. US foreign policy is basically all about that.

It is one of the ways that the west got rich, and how North Ametica enriched itself at the expense of Latin America, and how the upper classes in Latin America enriched themselves at the expense of the working classes.


So the solution to anti-democratic oppression by the US is anti-democratic oppression by authoritarian collectivists?
#14982521
Sivad wrote:So the solution to anti-democratic oppression by the US is anti-democratic oppression by authoritarian collectivists?


Yes
#14982525
Sivad wrote:So the solution to anti-democratic oppression by the US is anti-democratic oppression by authoritarian collectivists?


Since your only argument will to be call anyone a “gulagist” if they oppose neoliberalism on any practical level, and strawman me, I am going to forego this discussion.
#14982529
Sivad wrote:So the solution to anti-democratic oppression by the US is anti-democratic oppression by authoritarian collectivists?

No more than the solution to anti-democratic oppression by authoritarian collectivists is anti-democratic oppression by the US.

The problem with the US's approach is that it works in Maduro's favour. He can say, perfectly reasonably, that the main opposition is made up of paid-up pawns of US foreign policy and that he is the only option. It's a powerful line of attack. It also sabotages any efforts from reasonable opposition figures within the country, since they will be lumped in with the ones who are quite openly taking money from the US. I find it very hard to believe that Maduro - whose approval rating has been hovering around the low 20s and who is presiding over hyperinflation and food shortages in the world's most oil-rich country - would last five minutes if he couldn't play on the "siege mentality" theme.

You can see the same tactic at work in Iran. The population of Iran doesn't seem to be particularly in love with the Ayatollahs or the Islamic Republic, but relentless warmongering bullshit from the US, Britain and France makes them rally around their government.

Of course, it's one thing to say that Venezuela, Iran etc need to be left alone to sort out their own problems, and quite another to hail a clown like Maduro as a heroic revolutionary leading Venezuela to a glorious socialist golden age, like some members of PoFo who really should know better. :lol:
Last edited by Heisenberg on 24 Jan 2019 21:13, edited 1 time in total.
#14982530
Countries that support the socialist dictatorship in Venezuela
(looks like just a list of shitty authoritarian countries)

Belarus

Bolivia

People's Republic of China

Cuba

Dominica

El Salvador

Iran

Laos

Mexico

India

Nicaragua

Democratic People's Republic of Korea

"Palestine" (Not a country)

Russia

Saint Kitts and Nevis

Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

South Africa

Suriname

Syria

Trinidad and Tobago

Turkey
#14982552
He's betrayed his supporters just like Ortega in Nicaragua. And international observers denounced the election as rigged.
#14982555
^ No they didn't. Venezuelans vote with their fingerprints and the majority voted for Maduro, why do you even bother to pretend to be a socialist is beyond me. :lol:





Of course ITT it's a bunch of boring white guys living in countries with awful human rights records that are directly or indirectly supporting regime change on a country that's been fucked with for years and years via sanctions, for its crime of not conforming to the economic system the West tries to impose on everyone. These sanctions are a major player to why Venezuela is in the dire straits it is. Of course the way things have been governed aren't excellent as they aren't all over the world, but if you're going to complain about the status quo in Venezuela while ignoring the sanctions, the blockade, the years of attacks by the U.S., maybe you should shut the fuck up and read for a bit.

As if this is about human rights or giving a shit how any poor country lives. :lol:

As if you guys are just being fair in your commentary but are fucking silent about what's going on in France right now, in Palestine forever, in Saudia Arabia, etc. You shut up then so maybe shut up now too, to remain consistent at least. :excited:

The funniest are those who believe in Russiagate but support this war on Venezuela. Maybe if I call it "meddling" you'll understand what I mean.

JohnRawls wrote:Reality check for Maduro fans though:

There are 3 countries i think that support Maduro in the whole north, central and south America.


No there's not, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba and Mexico amount to 4.

There's support from China, Russia, Iran, Turkey, DPRK and possibly more too.

Around 10+ countries that support Guaido.


The guy that 80+ per cent of Venezuelans have never heard of, who's never been elected for anything besides being the frontman for an unelected govt that would sell the country to Western interests. Yeah, cool story. :lol:

Literally almost everyone hates Maduro/Venezuela in the region right now.


Clearly:





Here is a map(I think only Cuba is missing from the list but i think it is because they haven't really given a message regarding the situation yet)


Google is your friend.


Victoribus Spolia wrote:I don't think this is going to happen so long as he can keep the neocons in his cabinet in check, Trump's nationalism generally gravitates against foreign wars; his actions in Syria being case-in-point. I expect him to be the one to announce a full withdrawal from Afghanistan if he is still president after 2020.


Trump increased troops in Afghanistan and Syria. His actions re: Venezuela show what's obvious to anyone who's been paying attention - he's in the pocket of the neocons. Yeah he sold himself as an anti-interventionist type during his sales pitch (election campaign) but come on, even Americans should be able to figure out what the U.S. is and always does, still.
#14982568
Heisenberg absolutely nailed it. :up:
_____________________________________

I like that one very much:

The Guardian wrote:Russia issued a strong declaration of support for Maduro’s government on Thursday, saying that a US military intervention in Venezuela would be “catastrophic”.

How is Maduro not catastrophic? It may be a bit late to worry about catastrophe in Venezuela. :lol:

“We believe it would be a catastrophic scenario to shake the foundation of the development model we have been observing in the region of Latin America.”

It would clearly be a catastrophe if someone shook the foundation of the development model with an expected inflation rate of 10 million percent this year. :eek: It's such a successful model that there are shortages of food and medicine and an estimated 2.3 million people have fled the country since 2015. :excited:
#14982622
Empire babies are a weird bunch, coming here yapping negatively like the TV told them to about a country they'd never consider otherwise.

Beren wrote:Heisenberg absolutely nailed it. :up:


No he didn't, it was the same boring shit as before, only this time he's moved past supporting the opposition like he tried to do the last time we got into it after I showed him what type of nonsense he was supporting. So I suppose there's some progress.

People doing the 'you love blah if you don't support more U.S. regime change' remain ever so boring. OK I get it, I love Assad, Putin, Saddam, etc. Now what? Does that mean you love Trump? May? Rightwing terrorists in Venezuela? Bolsanaro? Nethanyahu? Yawn.


Some crap from regime-change loving The Guardian


Yeah, this is ALL because of the Venezuelan govt and absolutely nothing to do with the sanctions and blockade on the country, Saudi Arabia flooding the oil market etc.

But really, why even pretend you care about the wellbeing of a country you hardly are ever told to think about, except for when war propaganda is around? WHY? :lol:

People are always claiming socialism doesn't work yet don't seem to say anything about the empire that's on constant attack to socialism attempts anywhere. If socialism didn't work, why not let it play out itself? :excited:

Venezuela isn't even a socialist government. Most (80%) of its economy is privately run.
#14982623
skinster wrote:Empire babies are a weird bunch, coming here yapping negatively like the TV told them to about a country they'd never consider otherwise.



No he didn't, it was the same boring shit as before, only this time he's moved past supporting the opposition like he tried to do the last time we got into it after I showed him what type of nonsense he was supporting. So I suppose there's some progress.

People doing the 'you love blah if you don't support more U.S. regime change' remain ever so boring. OK I get it, I love Assad, Putin, Saddam, etc. Now what? Does that mean you love Trump? May? Rightwing terrorists in Venezuela? Bolsanaro? Nethanyahu? Yawn.




Yeah, this is ALL because of the Venezuelan govt and absolutely nothing to do with the sanctions and blockade on the country, Saudi Arabia flooding the oil market etc.

But really, why even pretend you care about the wellbeing of a country you hardly are ever told to think about, except for when war propaganda is around? WHY? :lol:

People are always claiming socialism doesn't work yet don't seem to say anything about the empire that's on constant attack to socialism attempts anywhere. If socialism didn't work, why not let it play out itself? :excited:

Venezuela isn't even a socialist government. Most (80%) of its economy is privately run.


Wow the arrogance in this one. If i remember correctly you are Pakistani. What is the reason you or your relatives live in our "Empires" of the US or EU?
#14982624
Heisenberg wrote:Only if by "more competent" you mean "do exactly what we want them to do", like selling off their oilfields to BP, or giving Nestle a coffee monopoly. Libya's "national transitional council" has been presiding over a failed state defined by warlord-anarchy since 2011, but it goes unreported because western companies have basically been given all the oil. Not exactly a model of competence, if you ask me.

Also, the idea that people who actively call for foreign intervention in their countries have "integrity" is positively absurd. It's why I said what I did about the Venezuelan opposition - the simple fact is that the Maduro attack line on them, that they are bought and paid for by America, is true. :lol:


I have to say, my (?) public money is probably better used if it's "sold" or "sent" to Western entities or corporations. Better than spent on the "elites"' personal enjoyment, or in some cases, spent on stuff that would actually harm our freedom or lives.

Some may say "move to the West then!" Well, the problem is, by then, I have to take up their shit!
#14982633
skinster wrote:^ No they didn't. Venezuelans vote with their fingerprints and the majority voted for Maduro, why do you even bother to pretend to be a socialist is beyond me. :lol:





Of course ITT it's a bunch of boring white guys living in countries with awful human rights records that are directly or indirectly supporting regime change on a country that's been fucked with for years and years via sanctions, for its crime of not conforming to the economic system the West tries to impose on everyone. These sanctions are a major player to why Venezuela is in the dire straits it is. Of course the way things have been governed aren't excellent as they aren't all over the world, but if you're going to complain about the status quo in Venezuela while ignoring the sanctions, the blockade, the years of attacks by the U.S., maybe you should shut the fuck up and read for a bit.

As if this is about human rights or giving a shit how any poor country lives. :lol:

As if you guys are just being fair in your commentary but are fucking silent about what's going on in France right now, in Palestine forever, in Saudia Arabia, etc. You shut up then so maybe shut up now too, to remain consistent at least. :excited:

The funniest are those who believe in Russiagate but support this war on Venezuela. Maybe if I call it "meddling" you'll understand what I mean.



No there's not, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba and Mexico amount to 4.

There's support from China, Russia, Iran, Turkey, DPRK and possibly more too.



The guy that 80+ per cent of Venezuelans have never heard of, who's never been elected for anything besides being the frontman for an unelected govt that would sell the country to Western interests. Yeah, cool story. :lol:



Clearly:







Google is your friend.




Trump increased troops in Afghanistan and Syria. His actions re: Venezuela show what's obvious to anyone who's been paying attention - he's in the pocket of the neocons. Yeah he sold himself as an anti-interventionist type during his sales pitch (election campaign) but come on, even Americans should be able to figure out what the U.S. is and always does, still.


Oh yeah, i forgot to mention also one thing. At the time that i posted, the countries that support/oppose Maduro kept increasing so that is precisely why i said that Cuba is missing from the map because it hadn't sent a statement yet.

Let us try this again, shall we. New map is something like this. Nicaragua is grey but should be red: (Notice how in south, central and north America there is almost no support for Venezuela. The overwhelming majority is against Maduro. If you want to call this Imperialism then call it united North,central and south American imperialism ;) )
Image
#14982634
It's strange how the victim of external aggression through coup attempts, internal fifth columnists working on behalf of foreign powers and years of sanctions can be blamed. Irrespective of whether you think Maduro is a crap leader or not, it's up to Venezuelans to decide who leads them, not puppets and foreign powers.

The MSM as usual have been diabolical on this.
#14982637
demima wrote:It's strange how the victim of external aggression through coup attempts, internal fifth columnists working on behalf of foreign powers and years of sanctions can be blamed. Irrespective of whether you think Maduro is a crap leader or not, it's up to Venezuelans to decide who leads them, not puppets and foreign powers.

The MSM as usual have been diabolical on this.


The people should decide their leader. The problem is that the election in Venezuela are under dispute. The parliament doesn't recognize them, 13+ countries in North,South,Central America do not recognize them. Under Venezuealan constitutions the parliament can do what they did by the way. So there are currently protests both for and against Maduro but it is unclear a bit who has the majority support.

Bottom line, if the people have no choice and are being supressed a coup is bound to happen eventually. If you disrespect the liberal values then at some point your own people will disrespect you :lol:

Look at France as a counter example to this. In a liberal word, protest is seen as an acceptable fenomena. France is protesting for several months now but nobody is thinking of overthrowing the government. In the West protest is a self-correction mechanism while in other non-western places it is not basically.
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