[skinster]

Syria used the heights to shoot artillery and mortars into Israel and attacked during the wars of 1967 and 1973.

Syria used the Golan (Syrian land) when defending themselves from Israeli attacks when Israel attacked using artillery and more around the same time Israel completed the conquest of Palestinian territory which was what the Palestinian state was set to be (the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem) which they ended up occupying too, to this day; land that was never offered as Israeli territory and land that basically the entire world considers as Palestinian and Syrian territory.

As mentioned earlier, the Golan was offered back in return for a peace treaty but the offer was rebuffed.

Citation needed.

So to just call it a land grab is very one - sided.

Compared to what you said, which are statements fully of objectivity.

So your first post in this forum is just a anti-Zionist slogan ?

Anti-zionism is cool because zionism is a disgusting ideology for racists and supremacists.

I am for a one state Solution for Israel.

Me too, but where everyone has equal rights. Right now Palestine is one state where there is foreign control that includes occupation and apartheid and a modern day concentration camp. The BDS movement advocates for the one state too, with equal rights for all who live there.

[Rugoz]

The Albanian KLA committed acts of terrorism against Yugoslavian/Serbian authorities and people. At the time they committed those atrocities they had more human and political rights in Serbia than any other minority in Europe and in fact they had more human and political rights than the Welsh, Scottish and N. Irish people in the UK even have at the present day. Kossovar Albanians aside from enjoying Albanian schools, language, education, signs, police and having more autonomy than the aforementioned, they also had a seat at the Yugoslavian table on par with the other republics.

Oh look, somebody is stuck in 1989. Why do you think the conflict happened in the first place.

[noemon]

Oh look, somebody is stuck in 1989. Why do you think the conflict happened in the first place.

Oh look an entire article of propaganda without a single sentence of how these constitutional amendments negated Albanians their civil or political rights. Civil and political rights that they carried on enjoying even after these amendments and which are greater than the civil and political rights of the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish people in the UK. The Albanians even after these amendments they still had a Federal Vote in Yugoslavia much like Swiss cantons and unlike N. Ireland and Scotland who do not have such a vote not even in the present day. Albanians still had their own Albanian schools, their own police, their own community even within a Serbian province. Also you have missed the part of the article where it says "Albanians have made several nationalist protests over the past 2 decades but for the first time ever they have been confronted with a Serbian response":

In the past two decades, Albanian nationalists staged several nationalist riots. But their protest is now being opposed by a surge of Serbian nationalism long suppressed under the late President Tito and suddenly erupting a few years ago after Serbs complained about persecution by the ethnic Albanians.

The number of Serbs has shrunk by 50,000 in the last eight years after mass migration from the province under alleged Albanian pressure.

And this all taking place in a Serbian province, not in a federal republic but a province.

Serbs give Albanians the right to their own schools, language, education, police, to their own parliament and to an equal voice to themselves on a federal level, they do that within their own legal province, the Serbs then get persecuted, flee their own homes from their own province in their own country despite having granted to them all these unique and extravagant human and political rights but as we all expect to chant, Serbs must always be the bad guys.

Anyway, this post along with the rest will be moved somewhere more appropriate.

Edit: Actually this thread is about comparing 2 similar situations and a third does not seem out of place. So staying here for the time being.

[Rugoz]

Oh look an entire article of propaganda without a single sentence of how these constitutional amendments negated Albanians their civil or political rights.

Wtf are you talking about? There are multiple articles. Read from start to end.

[noemon]

Wtf are you talking about? There are multiple articles. Read from start to end.

I actually did read from start to finish and nowhere in this block of text was there a mention of how these constitutional amendments negated the Albanians their civil or political rights. The sentence "remove their autonomy" is stated about 20 times but nowhere how their autonomy was "removed" is spelled out. Nowhere and if you disagree then quote from the article(s) you linked. In fact the more you dig deeper into this the more you(along with everyone else) will come to realise that this is all smoke and mirrors, the Albanians even after the amendments, carried on having their own schools, their own police, their own parliament, their own government and their own national vote in the Federal Republic which instead of them using that national vote to oust Milosevic 3 years after these events in your article they opted to boycott the federal elections instead as good old fashioned stooges.

[Rugoz]

I actually did read from start to finish and nowhere in this block of text was there a mention of how these constitutional amendments negated the Albanians their civil or political rights. The sentence "remove their autonomy" is stated about 20 times but nowhere how their autonomy was "removed" is spelled out.

You didn't read shit. It's impossible to miss. For example:

The constitutional changes give Serbia control of police, courts and civil defence and a free hand to alter Kosovo’s status once again any time in the future.

Also here's a more official source:

Milosevic initiated a Kosovo "colonization programme" designed to attract Serbian settlers (Encyclopaedia of Conflicts 1993, 180) and he began to decrease the powers of both Vojvodina and Kosovo, initially by placing police, judicial and economic planning matters under strict Serbian direction (Hall 1994, 208; Samardzic June 1995). By March 1989 Kosovo had lost much of its previous autonomy and riots designed to protest the changes reportedly left at least 24 people dead (Reuters 2 Aug. 1989; Helsinki Watch Mar. 1990, 10, 14-15). "Serbian authorities gradually tightened their grip on Kosovo after suppressing the March riots. They jailed about 900 ethnic Albanians for their part in the unrest and placed more than 200 others in various forms of isolation without trial" (Reuters 2 Aug. 1989; Helsinki Watch Mar. 1990, 10, 14-15). "In July 1990, in response to the Kosovars repeated demands for republic status, the Serbian government finally suspended Kosova's parliament and imposed direct rule through its own police force" (History Today 1 Dec. 1991; see also Encyclopaedia of Conflicts 1993, 180; Vickers 1995, 216). Any remnants of Kosovo's autonomy were effectively abolished as all power in the province reverted to the Serbian National Assembly (Encyclopaedia of Conflicts 1993, 180-81; Hall 1994, 208).

After 1990 control of the police, local government offices, schools, medical facilities, the media and most state factories was handed over to Serbs (Hall 1994, 209). Kosovo's leading daily, Rilindja, was closed in August 1990 on charges that it published anti-Serbian propaganda (ibid.). Numerous other Albanian-language publications and radio and television programmes were canceled and Serbian journalists filled any remaining positions (ibid.; Vickers 1995, 216). According to Hall, by late 1992 approximately 100,000 Kosovars working in the public sector had lost their jobs (Hall 1994, 209; Vickers 1995, 226; see also Samardzic June 1995). Serbian again became Kosovo's official language and Latin alphabet signs and street names were replaced by Cyrillic ones (Hall 1994, 209). According to a 1994 AP report, Serb authorities, with the support of a well-equipped police force, removed Kosovars from every public position (26 Nov. 1994).

According to Hall, after 1990 "substantial repression" began (1994, 208). In 1994 Human Rights Watch/Helsinki (HRW/H) characterized the situation in Kosovo as equivalent to that of a police state (Mar. 1994, xii-xiii). The International Crisis Group (ICG) states that since 1989 Belgrade has been running Kosovo "in ways reminiscent of apartheid with the aid of a massive police and military presence" (17 Feb. 1998; see also Vickers 1995, 226; - 16 Nov. 1997; HRW/H Mar. 1994, xii-xiii). The ICG calls the human rights situation in Kosovo since 1989 "appalling" (17 Feb. 1998). Between 1990 and 1994 Amnesty International, Physicians for Human Rights, Human Rights Watch and other groups published numerous reports on conditions in Kosovo. These reports detail the extent of measures employed by Serb authorities and provide examples of widespread human rights abuses, including police abuse and mistreatment, torture, killings, unfair trials, freedom of speech restrictions, harassment, discrimination in employment and education, etc. (PHR Aug. 1991; AI Feb. 1994; AI Apr. 1994; AI June 1992; HRW/H Mar. 1994; HW Mar. 1990).

https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a80c0.html

[noemon]

You didn't read shit. It's impossible to miss. For example:

I bet it took you a while to find even a glimmer of something relevant didn't it? That should make you think. But even this is falling very short of explaining how these amendments "removed the Albanian autonomy" as the article claims. It is quite clear and self-evident that this sentence is like the rest of the Guardian article a mere assertion without explaining how any of that is actually taking place:

This, your supposed evidence is nothing but an assertion:

The constitutional changes give Serbia control of police, courts and civil defence and a free hand to alter Kosovo’s status once again any time in the future.

And it is factually wrong, consider this, you and your article claim that in 1989 Serbia removed Kossovar autonomy but in July 1990 the Kossovar Parliament was still in session and voted to secede from Serbia.

This puts various things into perspective and explains all the dates in your next official propaganda source:

Also here's a more official source:

What you seem to be neglecting and confusing is that the propaganda article from the Guardian is from 1989 and that article is devoid of any actual argument. Your next "official source" only states events that took place after Albanians rebelled and officially demanded secession, and after it had become self-evident to everyone in Yugoslavia that the country was under attack both by external and internal forces being used by external powers. In the face of this the repression of the Serbian province of Kossovo suspending its parliament and removing rebel elements from its local administration was nothing but a logical step that any other government would have taken. In fact all the states under discussion in this thread would have killed the rebels even at the present day instead of simply sack them from their government jobs.

[Rugoz]

This, your supposed evidence is nothing but an assertion:

What is this shit?

I provided a source, and then I provided a second source. Am I supposed to dig up a text of the actual constitution? Meanwhile you provided absolutely nothing that would contradict that "assertion".

Your next "official source" only states events that took place after Albanians rebelled and officially demanded secession

Those are partially the events that precede the declaration of independence.

Edit: corrected

In the face of this the repression of the Serbian province of Kossovo suspending its parliament and removing rebel elements from its local administration was nothing but a logical step that any other government would have taken. In fact all the states under discussion in this thread would have killed the rebels even at the present day instead of simply sack them from their government jobs.

Now you've totally lost it. Restricting free speech, sacking 100k ethnic Albanians, torture, killings, effectively creating an apartheit state is an appropriate response to a rebellion?



Needless to say the rebellion was entirely justified and you've provided zero argument against it, but even if it weren't, nothing would justify that response.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Now you've totally lost it. Restricting free speech, sacking 100k ethnic Albanians, torture, killings, effectively creating an apartheid state is an appropriate response to a rebellion?

Yes

in case of Albanians the solution would be to shove them back to Albanian but than NATO bastards came and helped the Muslim scum

[Rugoz]

Yes

Well, we were comparing it to Crimea. If Ukraine did the same, no matter what events preceded it, I certainly would have backed the Russian intervention.

in case of Albanians the solution would be to shove them back to Albanian but than NATO bastards came and helped the Muslim scum

Your honesty is very refreshing after that much hypocrisy.

[noemon]

:lol:

What is this shit?

I provided a source, and then I provided a second source. Am I supposed to dig up a text of the actual constitution? Meanwhile you provided absolutely nothing that would contradict that "assertion".

Of course I did. I proved that the Kossovar parliament was in session and that Kossovo had autonomy after the date that your article claimed that its autonomy seized. The 1989 propaganda article you brought on claims Kossovo's autonomy seized but in July 1990 the Kossovar parliament was still in session. It will take you severe forms of mental gymnastics to argue that the Serbs were repressing Albanians while they were letting them have their own Albanian parliament for local administration within their own Serbian province.

Nonsense. Those are the events that precede the declaration of independence.

No they are not. The assertions predate the declaration of independence as do the Albanian protests but the suspension of Kossovar parliament and the sacking of Albanian public employees happened after they declared open rebellion. Your sources and your self can only get away with muddying the waters and the flow of events.

Now you've totally lost it. Restricting free speech, sacking 100k ethnic Albanians, torture, killings, effectively creating an apartheit state is an appropriate response to a rebellion?

You have totally lost it as have your sources. You can actually tell from the language used: "the imposition of Serbian language in the school curriculum", in what kind of world does a government has to justify teaching the national language in the schools of its own province?

Your exaggerations and fake news are cute but ridiculous. Restricting rebellious speech, imprisoning open rebels and sacking them from their government jobs for sedition is not just an appropriate response but a justified response according to all legal systems in the world including the western ones.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Your honesty is very refreshing after that much hypocrisy.

What do you mean?
I think NATO intervention in Yugoslavia is the worst thing happened next to Libya and Iraq
after Soviet Union break NATO became a globalist organization designed to keep secure globalists and elitist interests

[Rugoz]

Of course I did. I proved that the Kossovar parliament was in session and that Kossovo had autonomy after the date that your article claimed that its autonomy seized.

Utterly irrelevant. The existence of a regional parliament says nothing about the level of autonomy that region has. Again, google this shit, there are a 100 sources saying the same as the two I provided.

Your exaggerations and fake news are cute but ridiculous. Restricting rebellious speech, imprisoning open rebels and sacking them from their government jobs for sedition is not just an appropriate response but a justified response according to all legal systems in the west including the western ones.

Ah yes, it's all fake news.

It's simply pathetic, noemen. Once again.

[Rugoz]

What do you mean?
I think NATO intervention in Yugoslavia is the worst thing happened next to Libya and Iraq
after Soviet Union break NATO became a globalist organization designed to keep secure globalists and elitist interests

I already said your honesty is refreshing.

[noemon]

Utterly irrelevant. The existence of a regional parliament says nothing about the level of autonomy that region has. Again, google this shit, there are a 100 sources saying the same as the two I provided.

There are hundreds of western news articles designed to dehumanise the Serbs and provide an excuse for the invasions and dissolution of Yugoslavia but none of them offer any actual reason and none of them bothers with explaining anything in depth because there is nothing to explain. Several non-Serbian people were secretly armed by Germany and the US and they started wars of secession right out of the blue while the Soviet Union was too weak to respond. But Yugoslavia was extremely liberal in terms of human and civil rights and its several ethnic groups enjoyed enormous human rights, in fact Albanians who were not an original constituent nation of Yugoslavia(like the Serbs, Croats & Slovenes) still had more rights in Yugoslavia and in Serbia than the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish have in the present day who are constituent nations of the UK; or the Black people have in the US, and they had these rights even after the supposed 1989 "amendments" that simply reverted Tito's 1974 openly admitted suppression of the Serbs in Kossovo by reintroducing Serbian in the school curriculum and letting Serbs return back to their own homes in Kossovo which I repeat was a Serbian province. This was not repressing Albanians in any way it simply stopped suppressing the Serbs in their own country.

And of course it is not utterly irrelevant that the Albanians had their own parliament and their own Federal vote equal to that of Serbias even after the "amendments". That proves beyond any doubt that their autonomy was not removed as the propaganda articles you brought forward claim.

Ah yes, it's all fake news.

It's simply pathetic, noemen. Once again.

It is very pathetic indeed. In fact it is way more pathetic than you imagine.

Watch this before you make any more:

These are the same people from the Guardian that were editing and writing all these articles you brought forward. In fact they went on to win Pulitzer awards for proven propaganda.

It is not just pathetic, it is vomit-inducing.

[Hindsite]

What do you mean?
I think NATO intervention in Yugoslavia is the worst thing happened next to Libya and Iraq
after Soviet Union break NATO became a globalist organization designed to keep secure globalists and elitist interests

President Trump has been trying to get NATO back on track with the original purpose. It is definitely going to be a difficult task.

[annatar1914]

President Trump has been trying to get NATO back on track with the original purpose. It is definitely going to be a difficult task.

There's no legitimate purpose left for NATO because the original reason NATO was allegedly created for no longer exists, which was the Soviet Bloc of countries in Eastern Europe which was perceived as a threat. Since the threat no longer exists, NATO is now just a service organization for Deep State/Elite interests, and has been for some time now.

[Hindsite]

There's no legitimate purpose left for NATO because the original reason NATO was allegedly created for no longer exists, which was the Soviet Bloc of countries in Eastern Europe which was perceived as a threat. Since the threat no longer exists, NATO is now just a service organization for Deep State/Elite interests, and has been for some time now.

NATO also had a political purpose to oppose communism and discourage war in Europe. That political threat still exists. Also Islamic extremism has become a new threat that NATO can cooperate to fight against.

[annatar1914]

NATO also had a political purpose to oppose communism and discourage war in Europe.

Communism is practically non-existent. And despite the love of your neo-conservatives to see American soldiers die for peace in Europe, that isn't the role of the United States, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, nor by the majority of the American people at almost any time in history, including the present, not that your Elites care much about either the original principles of the American Republic or the will of the American people.

That political threat still exists.

No, it really doesn't.

Also Islamic extremism has become a new threat that NATO can cooperate to fight against.

Insane, always a never ending reason for foreign wars and foreign occupations to prop up other nations while our own border and our own nation is crumbling. Islamic extremism gains recruits by NATO's never-ending wars in the Middle East for Oil and Israel, and so perversely increasingly threatens NATO countries and Israel too. People like you are in fact the best recruiters for Islamic extremism.

[Hindsite]

Communism is practically non-existent. And despite the love of your neo-conservatives to see American soldiers die for peace in Europe, that isn't the role of the United States, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, nor by the majority of the American people at almost any time in history, including the present, not that your Elites care much about either the original principles of the American Republic or the will of the American people.

I am just a common sense American conservative redneck that knows communism is nothing to dismiss as insignificant.

No, it really doesn't.

Yes, it really does.

Insane, always a never ending reason for foreign wars and foreign occupations to prop up other nations while our own border and our own nation is crumbling. Islamic extremism gains recruits by NATO's never-ending wars in the Middle East for Oil and Israel, and so perversely increasingly threatens NATO countries and Israel too. People like you are in fact the best recruiters for Islamic extremism.

Someone has to fight against tyranny or else we all lose our freedoms. I don't see anything insane about that.
Praise the Lord.