Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15011053
Helen Davidson wrote:Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law

Hundreds of thousands of people have taken to the streets of Hong Kong in a vast protest against a proposed extradition law that critics say will allow mainland China to pursue its political opponents in the city, which has traditionally been a safe haven from the Communist party.

A sea of people, many wearing white, filled main roads stretching for almost two miles from Victoria Park in the east of Hong Kong island to the legislative council complex. Thousands more struggled to get onto packed public transport from outer Hong Kong and Kowloon on the mainland.

Police closed metro stations and funnelled people through narrow thoroughfares, prompting accusations that they were deliberately attempting to reduce the scale of the protest.

Anger grew and the crowd shouted for them to free up more space, as the march came to a dead stop for large sections, in stifling heat. Further down the road crowds jeered at a pro-China broadcast on a large outdoor screen.

The bill creates a system for case-by-case fugitive transfers between semi-autonomous Hong Kong and regions with which it does not already have agreements, including mainland China.

Critics say the proposed law would legitimise abduction in the city, and subject political opponents and activists to China’s widely criticised judicial system. They fear a pro-Beijing Hong Kong government would not resist requests of a political nature.

Other rallies held around the world drew thousands of protesters, including in Australia’s major cities.

Chants and placards targeted Carrie Lam, Hong Kong’s chief executive, who has pushed for the amendments to be passed before July.

“This is the end game for Hong Kong, it is a matter of life or death. That’s why I come,” Rocky Chang, a 59-year-old professor, told Reuters. “This is an evil law.”

Three 19-year-old students, who did not want their last names or photographs published, said they were worried about the impact on freedom of speech. “Maybe we wouldn’t be able to post something about the Chinese government on social networking websites,” said Ruby. Her friend Yoyo said: “This is about our freedom of speech and basic human rights.”

Anthony, a retired lawyer, said the government had “tried to hoodwink us into agreeing much too quickly with something that has tremendous significance to Hong Kong.”

The bill poses a huge risk to the rule of law would not provide Hong Kong’s courts with the ability to provide proper oversight, he added. “And yet our chief executive tries to tell us there is no need to worry, the court is going to protect you,” he said. “What bullshit.”

Organisers raised predictions for the turnout after a crowd of about 180,000 gathered in Victoria Park on Tuesday to mark the 30th anniversary of China’s deadly crackdown on protesters in Tiananmen Square. The vigil, held every year since 1989, also served as a protest against the extradition bill.

On Thursday, hundreds of lawyers and judges marched silently through the city in a protest against the extradition bill. The march was led by Martin Lee, QC, an internationally recognised pro-democracy figure and former legislator, who has said opposition to the bill was “the last fight for Hong Kong”.

Anti-Beijing anger has been fuelled by the jailing in April of organisers of 2014 pro-democracy protests and the reduced presence of pro-democracy legislators, after six were removed from parliament in 2016 and 2017 for protesting against Beijing during their oath-taking.

Since the end of British rule in 1997, Hong Kong has operated under the “one country, two systems” regime, with a strong legal system seen internationally as its strongest asset. However, many feel the city’s autonomy has been eroded by a growing Beijing influence.

“If we lose this one, Hong Kong is not Hong Kong anymore, it’s just another Chinese city,” Lee told the Guardian.

Lee has been branded a counter-revolutionary by the Chinese government and believes he is among those it could target under the new law. “I haven’t committed any offence in China, but they don’t like me for what I do,” he said. “I’m prepared. I’m already 80, close to 81, so I won’t leave Hong Kong, I’ll continue to fight here. If they bring me there, OK. If they kill me in prison and say it’s suicide, OK. I hope I go to heaven.”

The Hong Kong government says the bill is needed to fight crime and that China is an important strategic partner in that regard. However, suspicions it was sought by Beijing were bolstered last month when Politburo member Han Zheng voiced his support and revealed targets included foreigners who committed crimes against Chinese national security outside China, and who came through Hong Kong.

Corrupt Chinese officials and tycoons who have fled to Hong Kong are also a key concern for the mainland government, which has never had a fugitive transfer request to Hong Kong granted in the 22 years since the end of British rule.

Human rights groups, legal alliances, and numerous governments have expressed their concern about the bill.

The US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, warned that it could damage the rule of law in Hong Kong, and a bipartisan congressional committee urged Lam’s administration to listen to the widespread concerns, saying local and foreign residents in Hong Kong had to be protected “from a criminal justice system in mainland China that is regularly employed as a tool of repression”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/09/vast-protest-in-hong-kong-against-extradition-law-china


The organizer claimed to have 1.03 million participants, double of the 2003 one which eventually had Tung Chee-Hwa ousted. However, I think that's a little bit of stretch. From my observation 600k ~ 700k might be more accurate.

There is one very concrete evidence that the number of participants exceeded the 500k number in 2003:

When I followed my parents to the protest, we tried to take the Metro from Mong Kok, a station on the Kowloon side. However, we were only able to take the 5th train or so, and we had to join the protest mid-way, because my father is too fragile to make the whole journey. While we were in the group, we heard that Mong Kok station had been closed because of mass influx of people. Even in 2003, only those metro station on the HK Island side had to close.

There are also reports that the cross harbour buses and ferries were packed with protesters.

While I expressed some kind of support of the bill, it seems the Government had to back down now. Of course, AFAIK that's not what Xi Jinping would do (unlike his predecessor Hu Jintao, who respects the System, e.g. term limit, strictly. He might have locked up Liu Xiaobo but at least Hu didn't kill him. Xi did).

I think if Xi Jiping really wanted to drive out "foreign influence", he wouldn't blink if we "have to be" put to death, either by starving (because of economic collapse) or concentration camps. But at least we die upright.
#15011064
Zionist Nationalist wrote:You have no chance against China either you obey or you are getting fucked.
it doesn't matter how many protesters there will be they dont give a shit about your opinion


You are right, but at least your president's rightful policies will avenge us.

Praise the Lord for delivering Trump.
#15011121
JohnRawls wrote:What do you want us to do? Nuke China?


Good idea! :lol:

... or to a lesser extent, find a way to identify and persecute the particular perpetrators for crimes against humanity. I believe Carrie Lam (the Chief Executive) is NOT the mastermind behind this, although revoking her hubby's British Passport would do.
#15011127
Patrickov wrote:Good idea! :lol:

... or to a lesser extent, find a way to identify and persecute the particular perpetrators for crimes against humanity. I believe Carrie Lam (the Chief Executive) is NOT the mastermind behind this, although revoking her hubby's British Passport would do.

I wonder if the UK can renegotiate the lease agreement again with aprooval of HK citizens if you get a vote? Would you be okay with going back to the UK?
#15011136
Patrickov wrote:Respect is NOT enough. Thanks.


I’m sorry, I didn’t mean any disrespect. But if the powers that be don’t get the message after a turnout like that then they are psychopathic. Dealings with them would be morally questionable.

The world is watching. Take heart :)
#15011157
ness31 wrote:I’m sorry, I didn’t mean any disrespect. But if the powers that be don’t get the message after a turnout like that then they are psychopathic. Dealings with them would be morally questionable.

The world is watching. Take heart :)


I just stated a fact with no intention to upset you. Thanks.

The CCP is a psychopathic organization comparable to the Nazis if not worse. And given their brainwashing, most ordinary Chinese, especially those from more inland, are probably psychopathically patriotic.
Last edited by Patrickov on 10 Jun 2019 05:37, edited 1 time in total.
#15011159
JohnRawls wrote:I wonder if the UK can renegotiate the lease agreement again with aprooval of HK citizens if you get a vote? Would you be okay with going back to the UK?


Whoever willing to "negotiate" with China probably need to repeat the British feat 180 years ago before a vote could even happen.

I personally think a UN condominium (exclude China first) would be better, but that requires restructuring of the Security Council, and China probably won't comply without a fight.
#15011229
Zionist Nationalist wrote:it would be better for hong kong if it would stay colonized and under western protection

this is the price you pay for wanting independance which was unnaccesary because it was expected that hong kong would be swallowed by the red dragon sooner or later only someone stupid or naive would think that China will leave it alone



We didn't really ask for it, although it was seen as inevitable given how the West was retreating in the late 20th century.

Ironic that Thatcher of all people had to sign that damn thing.

Now some meme time: Thatcher tripped outside the City Hall (?) in Beijing. A few days before now, Xi Jinping almost tripped in front of Putin. Implications anyone?
#15011298
Patrickov wrote:Whoever willing to "negotiate" with China probably need to repeat the British feat 180 years ago before a vote could even happen.

I personally think a UN condominium (exclude China first) would be better, but that requires restructuring of the Security Council, and China probably won't comply without a fight.


Think of it this way. If the locals allow for an independance referendum from the local authorities then what can the Chinese do? Roll in the tanks? That violates everything that was concluded with the British and China will inevitably become a pariah like Russia. But it will be Russia++ on steroids because there is inherent interest in the US and other countries to do this. The sanctions will be on steroids and there is no way out of that besides capitulation even for China.

Your Chinese overlord right now is trying to maintain stability which is under attack due to increasing wealth of the population, economic downturn in Chinese economy and US tariffs. China will fold instead of rolling the tanks in. (90% sure)
#15011299
JohnRawls wrote:Think of it this way. If the locals allow for an independance referendum from the local authorities then what can the Chinese do? Roll in the tanks? That violates everything that was concluded with the British and China will inevitably become a pariah like Russia. But it will be Russia++ on steroids because there is inherent interest in the US and other countries to do this. The sanctions will be on steroids and there is no way out of that besides capitulation even for China.


in this case they will probably resort to economic attrition
#15011300
Zionist Nationalist wrote:in this case they will probably resort to economic attrition


Yes exactly. But the Chinese are very vulnrable right now, their weakest for the last 2 decades. Their economic model is falling apart. They can't use infinitely cheap manpower because the manpower is not cheap anymore compared to other countries nor is it infinite. They have manpower shortages due to the 1 child policy. They are bleeding young people to both emigration and the 1 child policy. They already lost a lot but the future is more spectacular with additional 100m man won't being able to find a wife.

Now having said that the Chinese are not stupid. They tried to pump up their economy with a lot of cheap government subsidised credit but that created the so-called empty cities and overproduction that nobody needs. The debt is not repaid and has been stacking up year after year for the last decade.

This is not a stable house of cards. With hard enough push it can be collapsed if somebody wanted to go that way. (US wink wink)This is why rolling in the tanks is not an option right now for the Chinese.
#15011315
@Zionist Nationalist

Zionist Nationalist wrote:it doesn't matter how many protesters there will be they dont give a shit about your opinion.


You are right about that! The communist party in China doesn't give a shit about anybody's opinions. They proved that at Tiannamen Square.

@ness31

ness31 wrote:But if the powers that be don’t get the message after a turnout like that then they are psychopathic. Dealings with them would be morally questionable.

The world is watching. Take heart :)


Yeah, the world was watching when Tiannamen Square happened and taking heart didn't seem to do any good for the folks at Tiannamen Square when they were massacred. These communists ARE psychopathic. They're crazy! I can see why the citizens in Hong Kong are concerned. i would be too if I was them.
#15011323
JohnRawls wrote:Think of it this way. If the locals allow for an independance referendum from the local authorities then what can the Chinese do? Roll in the tanks? That violates everything that was concluded with the British and China will inevitably become a pariah like Russia. But it will be Russia++ on steroids because there is inherent interest in the US and other countries to do this. The sanctions will be on steroids and there is no way out of that besides capitulation even for China.

Your Chinese overlord right now is trying to maintain stability which is under attack due to increasing wealth of the population, economic downturn in Chinese economy and US tariffs. China will fold instead of rolling the tanks in. (90% sure)


You underestimated how much some of the Chinese want to "avenge" their ancestors of the "humiliation" in these 200 years (from what I see now, they still totally deserve it).

The Commies primarily were somewhat born out of this semtiment, feeded on this, and now have no choice but to serve this. Many of their supporters see Hongkongers as traitors and will eagerly annihilate us even if that means they have to go through turmoil again.

I don't think they can be stopped by anything short of a good spanking (or even worse, annhilation), if such persecution happens that is.
Last edited by Patrickov on 11 Jun 2019 00:57, edited 2 times in total.
#15011326
Beren wrote:The British won't mess with China, maybe if you belonged to Russia... I also don't think it makes you any good in HK if Sino-Western relations deteriorate.


I fully anticipate that we will be treated as collaborators by Western Governments as well, but that is because humanity is not advanced enough to swiftly identify who's morally upright and who's not, not because the Westerm Governments are malicious. To me, having the wrongdoers (that means whoever behind this scheme, not just Carrie Lam, who's merely the actor on the stage) punished is what's important. As @Zionist Nationalist said, we are probably toast one way or another.
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