US Diplomat's Wife Hit and Run in UK - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15040056
QatzelOk wrote:There's no criminality to each individual collision causing death.

40,000 Americans are killed this way each year, and it's totally legal. Another 400,000 Americans are premanently damaged, put into wheelchairs, paraplegic, etc. because of car collisions, but no one has done anything wrong.

Wow is it really that low. Automobiles are amazing and since the introduction of production automobiles in 1885 the level of premature deaths in general and accidental deaths in particular has declined massively. And its not just White European societies. I'm no health and Safety and Nazi, but I defy anyone to examine pre preservation Native American societies and not be shocked by their atrocious health and safety. I'm sure if Geronimo, the one native American leader still at large at the time of the release of the Daimler Benz, could see these figures he would just have yawned.
#15040168
The wife of a member of US diplomatic staff has not been granted diplomatic immunity from prosecution. Anne Sacoolas left the UK after claiming diplomatic immunity as her husband, Jonathan Sacoolas, works at the US spy base. Sacoolas was allowed to leave the UK but she is still criminally liable for what happened. It is possible for the official's home country to waive immunity; this tends to happen only when the individual has committed a serious crime, unconnected with their diplomatic role. Alternatively, the home country may prosecute the individual.

The Foreign Secretary will call his counterpart in the US over the case of an American diplomat's wife who claimed immunity and left the UK after becoming a suspect in a police investigation.

Boris Johnson says he hopes Anne Sacoolas, who was accused of killing a British teenager in a car crash, will return - and will raise it with the White House if she does not.

A Downing Street spokesperson said Dominic Raab would discuss the matter with US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. If it remains unresolved after that the prime minster will intervene.

Mr Johnson said 19-year-old Harry Dunn's death after he was hit by a car outside RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, on 27 August was a "tragic loss".

https://news.sky.com/story/anne-sacoola ... h-11829944
Last edited by ThirdTerm on 07 Oct 2019 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
#15040175
As tragic as this is, I think the idea of potentially revoking the woman's diplomatic immunity would set a horrible precedent...
#15040177
Political Interest wrote:If she is any sort of person she will return to the UK and present herself to face justice.

This is an appalling misuse of diplomatic privileges.

The UK government should press Washington on this issue but of course they won't.


Agreed. This is a massive misuse of the immunity privilege.
#15040193
Rancid wrote:Agreed. This is a massive misuse of the immunity privilege.


In theory, though, the privilege of diplomatic immunity can't be misused. It is what it is, and every country in the civilized world agrees to it...
#15040195
BigSteve wrote:In theory, though, the privilege of diplomatic immunity can't be misused. It is what it is, and every country in the civilized world agrees to it...


Then the rules need to be revised. There's what the agreements say, and what's right. If those things don't line up, they need to be adjusted.

Anyway, I'm sure exceptions can be made, hence the UK requesting a waiver, this sounds like a good case for a waiver to me.
#15040198
Rancid wrote:Then the rules need to be revised. There's what the agreements say, and what's right. If those things don't line up, they need to be adjusted.

Anyway, I'm sure exceptions can be made, hence the UK requesting a waiver, this sounds like a good case for a waiver to me.


I don't think a waiver should be granted at all. That puts us on the defensive. What happens when one of England's diplomats fucks up, we ask for a waiver and they decline?

Every time I've been overseas, whether in uniform or as a civilian, I understood one very simple concept: I am subject to the laws of the country I am in. Period.

We need to eliminate diplomatic immunity entirely...
#15040202
Rancid wrote:Yes, I agree. In the mean time, I don't see a problem with granting the waiver.


I do, and for the reason I stated. See, there is no "mean time". If a waiver is granted it sets a bad precedent, primarily because it's unlikely we'll ever actually get rid of diplomatic immunity...
#15040222
BigSteve wrote:I do, and for the reason I stated. See, there is no "mean time". If a waiver is granted it sets a bad precedent, primarily because it's unlikely we'll ever actually get rid of diplomatic immunity...


A precedent exists and it was the United States who initiated it:

Ex-Diplomat Gets 7 Years for Death of Teen in Crash

I am rather surprised that no one seem to be able to locate this one. I found the clue from the Chinese version of the Wikipedia article on diplomatic immunity.

ThirdTerm wrote:The wife of a member of US diplomatic staff has not been granted diplomatic immunity from prosecution. Anne Sacoolas left the UK after claiming diplomatic immunity as her husband, Jonathan Sacoolas, works at the US spy base. Sacoolas was allowed to leave the UK but she is still criminally liable for what happened. It is possible for the official's home country to waive immunity; this tends to happen only when the individual has committed a serious crime, unconnected with their diplomatic role. Alternatively, the home country may prosecute the individual.


This means the matter is in Trump's hands now.

Regardless of how bad BoJo's policies and personality are, he is being responsible here. The same cannot be said for Governments of, say, Hong Kong and China.
#15040284
Patrickov wrote:A precedent exists and it was the United States who initiated it:

Ex-Diplomat Gets 7 Years for Death of Teen in Crash

I am rather surprised that no one seem to be able to locate this one. I found the clue from the Chinese version of the Wikipedia article on diplomatic immunity.



This means the matter is in Trump's hands now.

Regardless of how bad BoJo's policies and personality are, he is being responsible here. The same cannot be said for Governments of, say, Hong Kong and China.


Well, two points:

First, the individual whose diplomatic immunity was waived had a history of, well, shall we say "poor driving".

Second, I don't believe immunity should've been waived in that case, heinous as it was.

I'll repeat myself: We need to do away with diplomatic immunity. But, until we do, diplomatic immunity should be absolute...
#15040288
A decent human being would have stayed to answer a few questions. It would not have prevented her abusing the immunity and escaping justice.

The fact the Americans apparently advised her to run means the shame extends to them.

Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you do.
#15040489
Mark this day with a stone. I agree with BS. As bad as this looks, the only remedy is to either stand by diplomatic immunity or do away with it entirely.

We had an incident not long ago where the Turkish president's body guards attacked some Americans. They were allowed to go home.

Diplomatic immunity is designed to protect real diplomats from arrest on trumped up charges or in time of war. It serves a real purpose. Every few decades something like this happens and we all get upset.

The US should pay the family a ton of money just as would happen here if someone was negligent and caused the death of others.

Did she have driving insurance? That is another string.....
#15040493
BigSteve wrote:I'll repeat myself: We need to do away with diplomatic immunity. But, until we do, diplomatic immunity should be absolute...

So you think that an American diplomat's wife should be subject to whippings or stonings in Saudi Arabia if she violates some tenet of Sharia? Diplomatic immunity serves a purpose. The US will address damages, but subjecting diplomats to foreign jurisdiction is a slippery slope. It should be addressed on a case-by-case basis by the Secretary of State if there is a good moral cause for waiving immunity.
Last edited by blackjack21 on 09 Oct 2019 00:04, edited 1 time in total.
#15040498
Honestly, the most annoying thing about this case is that you just know if the situation were reversed, and a British diplomat's wife had killed a kid in America, our government would waive her diplomatic immunity in about 30 seconds.
#15040526
snapdragon wrote:She's not entitled to diplomatic immunity. Send her back here to face charges.


Yes, she is...
#15040539
blackjack21 wrote:So you think that an American diplomat's wife should be subject to whippings or stonings in Saudi Arabia if she violates some tenet of Sharia? Diplomatic immunity serves a purpose. The US will address damages, but subjecting diplomats to foreign jurisdiction is a slippery slope. It should be addressed on a case-by-case basis by the Secretary of State if there is a good moral cause for waiving immunity.


SO did not make the statement you quoted and mistakenly attributed to him.

I did.

We need to do away with diplomatic immunity. Until that time, though, it needs to remain absolute...
#15040554
blackjack21 wrote:Fixed. I hope that didn't hurt your feelings too much. :)


Not at all.

If the spouse of a diplomat doesn't want to be subject to the laws of the country where they're posted, then the diplomat takes the post alone or he resigns/refuses it...
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