Trump hands over Syria to Turkey then threatens to "totally destroy & obliterate" her economy if... - Page 14 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

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#15042598
Presvias wrote:Exactly right, two wrongs don't make a right, and civilian killing terrorists are no exception.


How many civilians have they killed in Turkey? That last incident I remember was the 2016 bombing by a Kurdish group, which killed 36 police and 8 civilians. Looks like the US was pretty successful in reining them in. And in that attack, civilians weren't even the target, so you might as well argue it's no different from the collateral damage Turkish attacks cause. Collateral damage that is orders of magnitude higher: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/worl ... buses.html.
#15042599
You're engaging in 'whataboutism', "no different from..". That's not good enough, they're terror attacks and they don't care if civilians died. Just rechecked the wiki timeline and it states multi civilian deaths from attacks in Turkey in 2019 - 15 and obviously loads before that.

Let's draw a parallel: Would you want a still-militant, non-disarmed INLA/Provo etc IRA to rule a state in Ireland, or would you want them to fully reform into a Sinn Fein type organisation, get all the paras to agree to a full ceasefire AND disarmament and then agree full peace treaties?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Btw just seeing BBC news, Russia are truly having a field day with all this just as I expected..
#15042604
Presvias wrote:You're engaging in 'whataboutism', "no different from..". That's not good enough, they're terror attacks and they don't care if civilians died. Just rechecked the wiki timeline and it states multi civilian deaths from attacks in Turkey in 2019 - 15 and obviously loads before that.

Let's draw a parallel: Would you want a still-militant, non-disarmed INLA/Provo etc IRA to rule a state in Ireland, or would you want them to fully reform into a Sinn Fein type organisation, get all the paras to agree to a full ceasefire AND disarmament and then agree full peace treaties?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Btw just seeing BBC news, Russia are truly having a field day with all this just as I expected..


I have already said I think they have the right to resist (not necessarily saying they should), how that will turn out, including how many civilian casualties there will be, also depends largely on Turkey's behavior. That has nothing to do with whataboutism, it's a fact of war.

It's certainly nowhere near the point where I think it's justified to drop the support for Rojava and hand over the Kurds in Syria to Turkey.
#15042631
Turkey Rejects U.S. Call for Immediate Cease-Fire in Syria

Vice President Mike Pence plans to meet with Turkish President Recep Erdogan in Ankara, following Erdogan’s rejection of US requests to broker a ceasefire with Syrian Kurds.

”We will never declare a ceasefire. We do not sit at the table with terrorist organizations,” Erdogan said.

Trump recently sent Erdogan a letter telling him “don’t be a tough guy.”

The Oct. 9 letter, obtained by Fox Business Network's Trish Regan on Wednesday after Trump referenced it during a press conference the same day, advised Erdogan not to be a "tough guy" or a "fool" when it comes to his country's fragile situation at the Syrian border.

The president has been criticized by some analysts and political observers who insist he gave Turkey the "green light" to invade Syria and fight the Kurds, U.S. allies in recent efforts to bring the Islamic State to heel. Trump has defended his actions to "bring our soldiers back home" and put a stop to the "crazy endless wars," saying the United States is "7,000 miles away."

"I didn't give them a green light," Trump said Wednesday, "and if anybody saw the letter, which can be released very easily if you'd like, I can certainly release it -- but I wrote a letter right after that conversation, a very powerful letter, that was never giving a green light."

Turkey's military offensive "didn't surprise me at all," Trump told reporters. "They've been warring for many years -- it's natural for them, they fight."

But "why are we protecting Syria's land?" Trump asked, adding that the war-torn country "doesn't want Turkey to take its land. But what does that have to do with the United States of America?"

In his letter to Erdogan, Trump said, "Let's work out a good deal!"

History "will look upon you forever as the devil if good things don't happen," the president wrote. "Don't be a tough guy. Don't be a fool!"

"You don't want to be responsible for slaughtering thousands of people, and I don't want to be responsible for destroying the Turkish economy -- and I will," Trump said. "I've already given you a little sample with respect to Pastor Brunson."

"I have worked hard to solve some of your problems," the president wrote. "Don't let the world down. You can make a great deal."

The president mentioned the letter during a press conference with Italian President Sergio Mattarella and stated he sent it to Erdogan, along with another letter from Gen. Mazloum Abdi, the Syrian Kurdish military leader who serves as commander of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).

In his letter, Trump said Mazloum "is willing to negotiate with you, and he is willing to make concessions that they would never have made in the past."

"History will look upon you favorably if you get this done the right and humane way," the president said, later adding: "I will call you later."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... rkey-syria
#15042677
Rugoz wrote:I have already said I think they have the right to resist (not necessarily saying they should), how that will turn out, including how many civilian casualties there will be, also depends largely on Turkey's behavior. That has nothing to do with whataboutism, it's a fact of war.

It's certainly nowhere near the point where I think it's justified to drop the support for Rojava and hand over the Kurds in Syria to Turkey.


I've never supported such, you may have done so, the west may have, but hey that's what happens when you work for american and now russian interests.

The people here that are so tied to their factional beliefs have lost sight of the bigger picture completely and think Turkey's gonna fail. Well hopefully it will, but Van could be right, they might let Turkey carry out its actions despite widespread criticism. It doesn't matter if all the chess pieces surround Turkey if they can't get to it, and that's Putin's dream..
#15042679
Atlantis wrote:Poor Erdogan, even his Muslim brothers are deserting him,



and his Chinese friends too.

China urges Turkey to halt military action in Syria-foreign ministry



Just because Egypt is predominately Muslim doesn’t mean they are automatically Erdogan’s allies. Erdogan seems to have close associations with the Brotherhood, the later being a serious menace in Egypt. It’s not like all Christians are the same. Just think about Protestants and Catholic terrorism in North Ireland as an example.

In fact the Egyptian establishment seems to be very supportive of Gulen, to the point of maybe giving him sanctuary if the Americans kick him out. Of course there is the tale of Ocalan to think about.
#15042680
Vanasalus wrote:Once I told to @noemon. Now, I repeat for you:

There is no easier, logistically unpainful and entertaining exercise in the world than moving imaginary armies around. ;)

As for the Turkish side... If memory is not failing me, Syrian+Iraqi+Iranian border regions are the task areas of 2nd Army headquartered in Malatya.

1st Army headquartered in Istanbul defends Thrace, straits, Istanbul and the rest of Marmara region.

4th Army headquartered in Izmir defends Aegean and Mediterranean shore regions.

If the reports in Turkish media are to be believed, there are 8,500 Turkish troops deployed for the operation. Thus I don't think 2nd army needed any help from other army headquarters at all.



Fair cop, gov. The European military is something of an imaginary army. In fact it is a lot like Tinker Bell: people have stopped believing in it so it is disappearing.
#15042729
foxdemon wrote:Fair cop, gov. The European military is something of an imaginary army. In fact it is a lot like Tinker Bell: people have stopped believing in it so it is disappearing.


Up to the Brexit vote, the UK has vetoed EU military cooperation for nearly half a century. They tried to keep on using their veto even after the referendum, but soon realized that this would create too much bad blood for the Brexit talks. So they gave up their veto. It only took a few months for the first EU military cooperation projects to materialize, but Rome was not built in one day either. Europe's combined defense spending far exceeds those of Russia and, with EU cooperation, redundancies can be eliminated to arrive at a defense framework that suits the EU's needs.

Having said that, the EU is not an empire like the US and doesn't need power-projection capabilities like the US. The mess in the ME is the responsibility of the US and not the EU. It would be very foolish for the EU to follow the ill-fated interventionist policies of neocon America. The EU needs to defend its borders and, if required, deploy UN-mandated peace-keeping missions in it's periphery. The EU does not have to police the world.
#15042786
Turkey's Erdogan 'threw Trump's Syria letter in bin'

In his letter to President Erdogan, Mr Trump wrote: "Let's work out a good deal! You don't want to be responsible for slaughtering thousands of people, and I don't want to be responsible for destroying the Turkish economy - and I will.

"History will look upon you favourably if you get this done the right and humane way. It will look upon you forever as the devil if good things don't happen.
"


I thought that he only talked like that. I wouldn't have though it possible that US diplomatic communication had degenerated to that level of crudeness.

I think at this stage, we would have to welcome any deep state to put an end to the misery.

Donald Trump's mixture of threats and locker-room banter infuriated Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. His staff told the BBC that he threw the letter into the bin and launched the Syrian operation the same day.


One can almost understand Erdogan's reaction here, even though he isn't squeamish when it comes to calling other countries' leaders Nazis.
#15042800
One can almost understand Erdogan's reaction here, even though he isn't squeamish when it comes to calling other countries' leaders Nazis.


Can you imagine a world in which a president of the United States threatens the leader of another country by saying "I don't want to be responsible for destroying the Turkish economy—and I will."

It is outrageous anytime but most particularly with the leader of a NATO country in which 50 US nuclear weapons are stored. Outrageous and reckless.

I can see why Erdogan sees he has no choice but to act quickly before Trump changes his mind again.

My personal belief is that threats are best left unsaid especially when the one threatening is easily able to make good on them. The letter should have simply said that the US does not support any kind of invasion of the Kurdish areas and will move to protect them if necessary.

This letter looks like Putin's work. I have no doubt that he is simply giggling every time Trump plays into his hands. Even if he is not dictating Trump's actions, he could not have done better if he was.

The U.S. does not have to be the police of the world is President Trump's view too.


Well obviously not. Trump threatened to destroy Turkey's economy. If that is not policing I don't know what is. All Trump has proved is that he does not know how to do this stuff and is not smart enough to consult the experts.
#15042812
Atlantis wrote:Up to the Brexit vote, the UK has vetoed EU military cooperation for nearly half a century. They tried to keep on using their veto even after the referendum, but soon realized that this would create too much bad blood for the Brexit talks. So they gave up their veto. It only took a few months for the first EU military cooperation projects to materialize, but Rome was not built in one day either. Europe's combined defense spending far exceeds those of Russia and, with EU cooperation, redundancies can be eliminated to arrive at a defense framework that suits the EU's needs.

Having said that, the EU is not an empire like the US and doesn't need power-projection capabilities like the US. The mess in the ME is the responsibility of the US and not the EU. It would be very foolish for the EU to follow the ill-fated interventionist policies of neocon America. The EU needs to defend its borders and, if required, deploy UN-mandated peace-keeping missions in it's periphery. The EU does not have to police the world.


An EU army is now 110% an absolute necessity.

You should form a new alliance to supplant NATO and get other rational countries like Canada and NZ to join it.
#15042814
Drlee wrote:Well obviously not. Trump threatened to destroy Turkey's economy. If that is not policing I don't know what is. All Trump has proved is that he does not know how to do this stuff and is not smart enough to consult the experts.

Trump doesn't refuse to police, he's just policing badly. He opened the gates for the Turks to go after the Kurds in Syria, then he put sanctions in place against them, which is just bad policing. It's like real police letting a gang invade a district and sanctioning them later for their wrongdoings. What Americans buy this?
#15042826
An EU army is now 110% an absolute necessity.


Absolutely. A nuclear armed force relying on France for a great many weapons than they already have now that the UK has left. France should increase to at least 10 Missile Subs with MIRVs and at least five at sea at any given time. 5 X 16 missiles X 8 MIRV should do it. That would put 600+ warheads at sea at any time. I would recommend many more boomers and the attack subs to protect them. It should also develop far more advanced ground based cruise and medium range missiles.

You should form a new alliance to supplant NATO and get other rational countries like Canada and NZ to join it.


Yes. And plan a 600+ ship navy to project their power to thwart China and Russia simultaneously. And lets not forget far more fighter aircraft. (The EU may have enough of these if they just coordinate their air forces.)
#15042838
5 hours long negotiations between Turkish and US delegations, there is an agreement for ceasefire.

Ceasefire will last for 120 hours.

In this 120 hours, PKK will withdraw from the ~30 km wide security zone demanded by Turkey.

At this point, how many miles the length of this security zone is not clear. We have to wait for the formal written agreement to be published.

Also, who will have the control in this security zone is unclear at this moment.
#15042848
Hopefully, there will be enduring peace between all sides for the foreseeable future.

The less hypocritical (ie not involved in many foreign conflicts) EU states could step into the fold here to try and gently broker something.

I don't want Putin to get his way with all sides fighting and them making gains, and blindly + uncritically supporting any side does just that..IMHO.
#15042878
@noemon @Rugoz and others..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/18/syrian-kurds-accused-of-ethnic-cleansing-and-killing-opponents/amp/

Syrian groups backed by the West have been accused of driving people into the arms of Isil, executing prisoners and killing hundreds of people in recent inter-factional fighting.

The YPG, the Kurdish group being backed both by the United States to fight Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and by the Russians to fight US-supported anti-Assad rebels, is sending civilians into flight with its behaviour, according to a former US ambassador to the country, Robert Ford.


“In some cases, Syrian refugees flee it and don't go towards the Kurdish areas - they run away from them and into Islamic State territory,” Mr Ford told a Senate committee hearing.

He made the accusation at a time when both pro- and anti-regime forces in Syria are fragmenting under the pressure of the seemingly endless conflict.

Syrian Civil Defence workers evacuate a body following a regime air strike in Aleppo
Syrian Civil Defence workers evacuate a body following a regime air strike in Aleppo CREDIT: AFP
While the atrocities of the regime and its allies have been well-documented, and some opposition groups have committed abuses from the early days of the fighting, the recent surge of accusations is particularly embarrassing for the United States and its allies.

They have been trying to co-ordinate military support for selected groups with a drive for peace talks in Geneva.

Yet in the past few weeks alone, an Islamist group which has received high-end American weapons has fought with the main Saudi-backed group in the south of the country, in a mini-war estimated to have killed 500 people.

A leader of Jaish al-Islam, the Saudi-backed group, is one of the three main negotiators for the opposition in the Geneva talks. Yet the group has been accused of making sectarian threats and of not tolerating dissent in the areas it controls, like much of Eastern Ghouta near Damascus.

It is now being fought by another group that is parts of the talks, the Failaq al-Rahman Brigade. It is seen as linked to the “moderate” Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, but has joined forces with elements of the local branch of al-Qaeda, Jabhat al-Nusra, to challenge Jaish al-Islam's dominance.

Among the dead are Nabil al-Daas, the last gynaecologist working in the enclave, who was hit in cross-fire.


In the north, the fighting north of Aleppo between anti-Assad rebel groups, some of them supported by the United States, and the YPG-led Syrian Democratic Forces has continued despite the ceasefire that has held in some other parts of the country.

The role of the SDF has become the most complex of all the international dilemmas facing the international community.

It was forged with western help to fight Isil. It is led by the YPG, but also contains some smaller Sunni Arab rebel groups and a Christian Syrian militia, and after recent gains has reached 20 miles from Raqqa, Isil’s capital.

However, the YPG has also been accused of human rights abuses. Amnesty International accused it in October of forcibly evicting Arabs and Turkmens from liberated areas and demolishing the houses, or even villages - claims it strongly denied.

Meanwhile, the YPG’s parent organisation, the PKK, which operates north of the border, has resumed its war against the Turkish state - a Nato ally of the US - and filmed itself shooting down a Turkish military helicopter last week.

In the north-west of Syria, the SDF and YPG are not getting support from the Americans but from the Russians, who see them as a useful ally in the fight against the non-Isil rebels, including Jabhat al-Nusra.

In one particularly gruesome consequence of the fighting, the YPG paraded a flat-bed lorry carrying 50 bodies of rebels killed in fighting through the streets of the Kurdish city of Afrin last month.

In presumed retaliation, another rebel group affiliated to the Free Syrian Army this week filmed itself executing a man and a woman it said were YPG officials. The YPG denied the connection but the incident raised further questions about the intensifying violence despite ceasefire talks.

Mr Ford, who left the Obama administration out of disagreements over Syria policy and has long supported military backing for “moderate” rebel groups, questioned the backing for the YPG in the Syrian war.

However, he also said the US-led coalition was facing an increasing dilemma as Isil were pushed back, as it was not clear who had the capabilities to run the liberated areas.

He said there was a risk that Sunni Arab groups, fragmenting among themselves, would “start killing each other” without a political process to bring peace.

“There are no perfect angels in this war, but there are some that are worse than others,” he said.



Just putting that out there for you.

Say what you like about the IRA and I don't support them, but they were nowhere near that bad. That's evil..it's sickening. When you support Kurdish terrorism that's the ugly face of it.

Admin Notes: Added quote tags. Please add [quote] tags when quoting an article.
#15042880
Presvias wrote:Say what you like about the IRA and I don't support them, but they were nowhere near that bad. That's evil..it's sickening. When you support Kurdish terrorism that's the ugly face of it.


Yeah I'm sure from all the actors operating in Syria at this moment, the Kurdish people who are native to the area who are democratic, feminist, and reliable partners of the west are what should be termed "terrorists" according to you Presvias just because it is conducive to the narrative of actual Turkish terrorism in foreign countries. :knife:

You said that "its vile and sickening behaviour on the parts of the Kurds". What is? :?: Your 2016 article claims that some war-refugees have fled towards ISIL territory instead of fleeing into Kurdish held territory. Full stop. How is that vile and sickening Kurdish terrorism is beyond me but if you want to elaborate to sustain what can only be described as muddying the waters sure be my guest.

Not sure why you mentioned the IRA implying that I might have said something about them in your figure of speech, but for the record I have not.
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