Corbyn apologises to PLP for Labour's defeat - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15054959
skinster wrote:Like in 2017, before the Blairites forced the 2nd ref on Brexit? :excited:

Like in 1983 and 2019.

Patrickov wrote:To be fair, if Corbynites are so unpopular after a few elections either they will be swept out, or the ones who cannot sweep them out will form a new party which might win elections themselves.

Or they will become irrelevant within the Labour party for some time only to rise again in the future, which is what has recently happened with Corbyn's ascent to leadership.
#15054961
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:rise again in the future


A variety of factors, such as how society before profits serves the majority, how capitalism is ever-barbaric and how much more of a mess Tories make will like contribute to that rise in the next five years.

If Brexit was accepted at the beginning like those who voted for it demanded, rather than be dismissed or ignored by Blairites and their mates in the Tory party, this election last week could've been won by Labour. I believe the Blairites knew what their pushing of a second ref would result in and this is what they wanted, in an attempt to kill socialist-Labour.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you all are sounding so bitter when you won the election last week.
#15054966
skinster wrote:A variety of factors, such as how society before profits serves the majority, how capitalism is ever-barbaric and how much more of a mess Tories make will like contribute to that rise in the next five years.

You'll forgive me if I don't put much stock in your predictions considering how confident you were before the election, against all factual evidence.

Also, if Labour descends into infighting again rather than concentrating on actually winning elections, we could well be looking at a further sustained period of Tory dominance.

skinster wrote:If Brexit was accepted at the beginning like those who voted for it demanded, rather than be dismissed or ignored by Blairites and their mates in the Tory party, this election last week could've been won by Labour. I believe the Blairites knew what their pushing of a second ref would result in and this is what they wanted, in an attempt to kill socialist-Labour.

Sure, it's all somebody else's fault. Your side would do well to take some responsibility, but it won't.

skinster wrote:Anyway, I'm not sure why you all are sounding so bitter when you won the election last week.

I'll need some time to recover from loathsome Corbyn being in charge of one of the main parties, but more importantly I do want Britain to have a reasonably credible and mature opposition party.
#15054971
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:You'll forgive me if I don't put much stock in your predictions considering how confident you were before the election, against all factual evidence.


I did consider Brexit being an issue in this election and was wrong to consider this election to mean more than Brexit to most of the working class who voted for it, but there was other factual evidence that added to my confidence, such as the results of the 2017 election, the shambles of the Tory government throughout and during the election, the size of Labour membership, the running scared wherever Boris Johnson campaigned compared to the opposite happening where Jeremy Corbyn did the same.

Still, I'm not here to convince you, since you're a rightwinger anyway.

Also, if Labour descends into infighting again rather than concentrating on actually winning elections, we could well be looking at a further sustained period of Tory dominance.


I don't recall you saying this to the Blairites over the last few years. :lol:

Still, I don't understand how people like you don't get that there is a rightwing within Labour, albeit the minority when it comes to membership. One side has to win and I support the left doing it, whereas you support the Blairites.

Sure, it's all somebody else's fault. Your side would do well to take some responsibility, but it won't.


The left of Labour and ex-Labour called this second ref on Brexit as being bad news. People like Ian Lavery, George Galloway etc. were screaming it from the beginning and throughout the election. This is why it took a year for the treacherous Blairites to pressure Corbyn into adopting the position. How about your side accept responsibility? I mean, I say that, but you're glad the Tories won so what the fuck even is this debate. :lol:

I'll need some time to recover from loathsome Corbyn being in charge of one of the main parties, but more importantly I do want Britain to have a reasonably credible and mature opposition party.


I'm sure if Corbyn won you'd be doing all of this some more, as you have for the last few years. Stop pretending you didn't just win an election and celebrate, instead acting angry at Labour because it's not as rightwing as you'd like. The Blairites are in full force trying to make Labour a centrist party again, this was their plan all along. I'm sticking around within the membership to make sure this doesn't happen, mainly because of getting played by the Blairites within the party. It's now in principle for me to push Labour as far left as possible. :excited:
#15054974
I find these demands from the media for apologies absolutely disgraceful. When someone gets the Silver medal at the Olympics, do the commentators demand they apologise to their supporters for coming second. The same with these idiotic demands to take responsibility. Labour lost. yeah and so? There's meant to be losers in an election.

If Corbyn stood on policies he believed in, then he is to be praised, as I praise Osama Bin Laden, Al Baghdadi, Hitler, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin and Pol Pot for standing by their beliefs. These people who say Corbyn should have stood on policies he didn't believe in, just so as he could get elected reveal their own corrupt and contemptible natures. If Corbyn stood on policies he thought were right, but those polices were in fact wrong, then what are people complaining about? The electoral system is working as its supposed to. If on the other hand Corbyn's policies were right, then its the electorate that should be apologising not Corbyn.

As for the Labour right. If they think that Corbyn's so awful, why did they try and put him into number 10? If they were not happy with the twice elected leader, why didn't they leave and join another party. One things for sure the electorate sent a loud and clear message, they massively prefer Corbyn's Labour party to Anna Soubry's collection of pompous narcissistic careerists.
#15055155
skinster wrote:So then stop whining.

I'm not whining, I just find it amazing how naturally Corbynites, who were in charge of both the party and the election campaign, shuffle off responsibility for the disastrous election results onto others and the circumstances without any introspection. It took five days for Corbyn to take responsibility and apologise for the defeat, his fans must have been shocked he did so at all.

But if you do think up anything, do share, because so far you're saying a whole crybabyload of nothing.

I'm the only one that's shared and interpreted a piece of numerical facts in this thread so far, whereas anytime you say something supposed to be factual like how many votes Labour got under Blair and Corbyn it always better be checked.

I could also share some articles from the Guardian describing organisational and communications problems and other criticisms of the Labour campaign, but I'd be surprised if you were interested or cared at all. However, I'd still dare suggest any Corbynite consider whether how instrumental to letting the Tories get Brexit done as they wish and make post-Brexit Britain a rightist wet dream they were and what their actual legacy will be.
Last edited by Beren on 19 Dec 2019 19:24, edited 2 times in total.
#15055157
Rancid wrote:Corbyn basically destroyed all chances at stopping Brexit.

Stopping Brexit without Labour as a flagship for Remain was impossible indeed and Brexitters were playing their cards masterfully all along, due to which they're in charge completely, which will be Corbyn's actual legacy as party leader.
#15055163
Rich wrote:I find these demands from the media for apologies absolutely disgraceful. When someone gets the Silver medal at the Olympics, do the commentators demand they apologise to their supporters for coming second. The same with these idiotic demands to take responsibility. Labour lost. yeah and so? There's meant to be losers in an election.

If Corbyn stood on policies he believed in, then he is to be praised, as I praise Osama Bin Laden, Al Baghdadi, Hitler, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin and Pol Pot for standing by their beliefs. These people who say Corbyn should have stood on policies he didn't believe in, just so as he could get elected reveal their own corrupt and contemptible natures. If Corbyn stood on policies he thought were right, but those polices were in fact wrong, then what are people complaining about? The electoral system is working as its supposed to. If on the other hand Corbyn's policies were right, then its the electorate that should be apologising not Corbyn.

As for the Labour right. If they think that Corbyn's so awful, why did they try and put him into number 10? If they were not happy with the twice elected leader, why didn't they leave and join another party. One things for sure the electorate sent a loud and clear message, they massively prefer Corbyn's Labour party to Anna Soubry's collection of pompous narcissistic careerists.


The issue is that his policies need to take a 2nd stage to Brexit. It is the biggest political and economic undertaking the UK has taken in the last 60 years or so. Having been wishy washy about it caused problems in several ways. Well that and people not trusting in Corbyn as a leader.

Labour defeat was related to much more than just their core stances right now. If Brexit was not at play and Corbyn didn't have such a large baggage of things he said then it might have been different. What if.... are not really a proper way to judge politicians though.

For the CURRENT situation in the UK, Corbynites do not really stand a chance. That doesn't mean that Corbyn policies are wrong in themself. At points of time politicians need to be realistic at what they can and can't do. Currently Labour biggest objective should be to crush the Liberal Democrats and get the voters back. This requires shifting more to the right and closer to the centre. After that hopefully Brexit will be done, the leader of Labour will be somebody younger with less baggage compared to Corbyn so they will feel more comfortable moving more left again. Can it be done in 4-5 years? Actually, yes I think that it can be done.

Hopefully Boris will be able to negotiate something within 4-5 years so Brexit will be out of the way. This, in itself, will also weaken the Liberal Democrats severely. The deal of any sort will cause economic damage in short term (my opinion) and if its a year before election then it will be perfect for a Labour comeback along with a move more to the left again. At that point the Liberal Democrats will be weakened and probably start hurting Tories more than Labour.

If Labour doesn't shift right now and closer to the centre than Liberal democrats will come out less weaker. When Borises deal hits the economy in the short term then the election MIGHT really become unpredictable. Nobody really knows how bad it will get short term. If it gets really bad than its going to be Liberal Democrats vs Labour if it is bearable then perhaps 3 way.
#15055178
Rich wrote:These people who say Corbyn should have stood on policies he didn't believe in, just so as he could get elected reveal their own corrupt and contemptible natures.


There's nothing contemptible or corrupt about adopting policies you don't believe in to win elections. In fact as a good politician you're supposed to do whatever the fuck people want.
#15055231
AFAIK wrote:Corbyn's policies are very popular but he isn't due to all the baggage he has acquired after decades in politics. We just need a young fresh face to lead the party with the same values as Corbyn.


Such as supporting Argentina over the Falklands, supporting the mad mullahs in Iran, supporting proscribed organisations like Hezbolla and Hamas, supporting Russia over the Novichok poisonings, supporting Maduro's disastrous socialist policies in Venezuela, and of course, for nearly 40 years he vociferously supported the IRA.

Corbyn is an embarrassment, he is an utter disgrace. Which is why the electorate rejected his hard left Momentum doctrine. He took Labour to their worst electoral defeat since 1935, and says he may step down in April! The extreme left will always have a small hardcore of supporters. But they will never have the support of the country.
#15055236
skinster wrote:Corbyn just had a chance of winning (for the third time) but there was much power and deception that prevented that from happening, including from within his party.

Anyway, you seem unfamiliar with how the majority of Labour's membership are leftwing. And who vote for the leader.


Corbyn never had a chance of winning because he ignored Labour voters in traditional northern Labour strongholds who voted to leave the EU. That more than anything ensured a Tory landslide.
#15055246
@JohnRawls
John, you take it for granted in all scenarios that the UK will be worse off due to Brexit.
It might be but I am not sure.
The world is a big place and the UK has a long history and a reputation, not to mention their leading role in finance and services. The EU would be foolish to take an aggressive stand, they have already lost a big financial contributor, they might make matters worse for themselves.

On a side note, how long are those 28 Brexit party EU parliamentarians continue to draw their huge salaries and benefits ? How will Bojo thank Nigel Farage for his very significant gesture for the elections ?

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