Australian Bushfire Crisis - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15059998
colliric wrote:Not true at all.

Black Saturday killed over 173 people and Ash Wednesday 75. This actually isn't even in the top 5 with only 29 fatalities so far. It's only 6th and it will most likely stay there. The Black Saturday and Ash Wednesday fires spread extreamly quickly (in a single day) so there was no time for people to escape, resulting in Victoria's last two major fires accounting for the majority of Bushfire related Fatalities in Australian history. Thee other States followed Victoria's lead in reforming fire safety as a result. People in Australia are now told to "Take Lot as an example, leave everything, run and don't look back!".... It use to be "Stay and fight if you can". As a result these Bushfires have had relatively low fatalities in comparison to the two single day disasters Victoria suffered in the 80s and the 00s. If you personally count 6th as being "one of the largest"(I don't), ok whatever, but at least admit it hasn't even cracked the top 5 yet!



Yes Australia's population is indeed rising. Thanks for noticing. Melbourne is growing at a faster rate and about to pass Sydney and regain its "biggest city in Australia" title which we lost to Sydney late in the 20th century. So more and more people have also naturally gone bush and there's more homes in bushfire prone regions as a result.



No actual figures on how many animals died from the 1974-75 Bushfires.... So who knows for sure???


I totally understand why you wish to pretend this is ordinary.

It is not.

No other fires in history have been this large AND destroyed as many homes AND taken as many lives AND had such a negative impact on wildlife.

Yes, some fires were worse than the current one on one of these metrics, but none have been so significant on ALL of these criteria.
#15060003
We don't know how many wild animals died in the many Bushfires of the past, since they simply didn't record such things back then.

This is arguably the first Bushfire on record where potential animal and wildlife casualties has been fully estimated. So there's simply nothing on record to compare that to.

The level of homes destroyed in this Bushfire is much more indicative of the fact Australia's population is generally rising all across the entire country. Human development is much more prevalent now than in Australia's past. There's much much more homes in these regions than ever before.
#15060040
Sivad wrote:...the 1974-75 fires were the biggest.

colliric wrote:...Our biggest burn remains the 1851 bushfires at 5 Million hectares and our second biggest is the 1951 Bushfires at 4 million.


The Montreal area experienced a catastrophic and freakish ice storm in 1998.

Our newspapers at the time, assured us that this was an every-100-years event, nothing to worry about.

It turned out to be a lie. But this lie helped calm consumers down during and after the crisis, and today, we burn more oil per person than ever. We are so calm.

Thanks, mass media, for all the calmness that allows us to stagnate.
#15060063
colliric wrote:We don't know how many wild animals died in the many Bushfires of the past, since they simply didn't record such things back then.

This is arguably the first Bushfire on record where potential animal and wildlife casualties has been fully estimated. So there's simply nothing on record to compare that to.


Wr can make estimates, and by those estimates, this is the most fatal.

The level of homes destroyed in this Bushfire is much more indicative of the fact Australia's population is generally rising all across the entire country. Human development is much more prevalent now than in Australia's past. There's much much more homes in these regions than ever before.


Provide evidence for this claim.
#15060408
Following the unprecedented wildfires that burnt through tens of millions of acres and killed a billion animals, Australia has been hit by torrential rainfalls that washed away topsoil left unprotected by the fires. And now the country is hit by huge dust storms that blow away vast amounts of soil.

The soil will get poorer, the vegetation sparse and dry. Each year it'll get a little worse as temperatures rise and extreme whether events get worse due to climate change.

But Australians are stuck in denial as they belch more and more coal into the atmosphere.

Image
#15060411
Atlantis wrote:the unprecedented wildfires


meanwhile, back in reality...


the '74 fire burned 11x the area, and then directly after torrential rains dumped 32" on Brisbane and a 200 mile wide inland sea was formed. None of this is unprecedented, it's routine weather.
#15060413
Pants-of-dog wrote:Provide evidence for this claim.


The last few Census counts..... You can go do the legwork yourself if you wish. I'm not going to bother giving you links if you refuse to accept basic logic concerning Australia's overall countrywide decades of population growth. I've pointed you in the right direction, told you where the evidence is, now go look for it in that direction. Lazy bastard.
#15060414
Sivad wrote:meanwhile, back in reality...


Nobody needs your alt-reality.

This season's wildfires are unprecedented due to record temperatures, record emissions, record animals burned, record everything. Why don't you just learn the facts instead of spreading you alt-facts. Nobody except for @colliric contests the fact that the fires are unprecedented.
#15060417
Oh fuck it:
https://www.3aw.com.au/you-cant-rebuild ... one-areas/

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... xperts-say

Melbourne's outer-surburban population growth is directly creating a higher Bushfire risk, because some suburbs increasing in population are in fire prone regions:
https://this.deakin.edu.au/society/is-m ... hfire-risk

Happy now?
#15060419
colliric wrote:
Happy now?


I doubt it. These jokers are impervious to facts, reason, evidence. They're ideological fundamentalists on a mission, there is no reasoning with that mentality.
#15060430
colliric wrote:The last few Census counts..... You can go do the legwork yourself if you wish. I'm not going to bother giving you links if you refuse to accept basic logic concerning Australia's overall countrywide decades of population growth. I've pointed you in the right direction, told you where the evidence is, now go look for it in that direction. Lazy bastard.


I find it amusing that you refuse to support your own argument, and then call me a lazy bastard because I will not do your work for you.

I do not know if you are blind to your own hypocrisy or of it was intentional, but it was amusing, despite your failed attempt to insult me.

And even if there are more houses now, it would not matter because the 1974 fires burned somewhere where there have always been relatively few homes while the recent ones burned in areas that have always been more populated.

colliric wrote:Oh fuck it:


It sure is easy to get you angry, apparently.

https://www.3aw.com.au/you-cant-rebuild ... one-areas/

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... xperts-say

Melbourne's outer-surburban population growth is directly creating a higher Bushfire risk, because some suburbs increasing in population are in fire prone regions:
https://this.deakin.edu.au/society/is-m ... hfire-risk

Happy now?


Quote the relevant text and explains how it supports your claim.
#15060434
Sivad wrote:I doubt it. These jokers are impervious to facts, reason, evidence. They're ideological fundamentalists on a mission, there is no reasoning with that mentality.


Instead of insulting Pofo members without reason, why don't you familiarize yourself with the facts? The facts have been laid out in this thread. It's only the bots, trolls, industry chills that keep on parroting your lies.

So far, the fires have emitted at least 400 million tons CO2. That is almost as much as Australia's annual emissions. For some of the forests to grow again will take 100 years, except that it won't grow again because of increasing wildfires year after year. The country will keep on getting dryer.
#15060444
Atlantis wrote:Instead of insulting Pofo members without reason, why don't you familiarize yourself with the facts? The facts have been laid out in this thread. It's only the bots, trolls, industry chills that keep on parroting your lies.

So far, the fires have emitted at least 400 million tons CO2. That is almost as much as Australia's annual emissions. For some of the forests to grow again will take 100 years, except that it won't grow again because of increasing wildfires year after year. The country will keep on getting dryer.

Look on the bright side though, @Atlantis - eventually there won't be any more Australians to annoy everyone. Clouds and silver linings, you know.... ;)
#15060483
That many people are affected doesn't in itself make a case for the relationship of the fire to changes in the global climate. All it marks is the sense of the tragedy of those affected, hence why the fire in 74-75 whilst clearly bigger in scale isn't something that is marked in the Australian memory as much as it was in such a remote place as to not affect as many people compared to other Australian fires in terms of people dying, damaging property and disrupting life.
Although such damage did occur.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12298682
But the most destructive event, which happened in 1974 and burned 117 million hectares, does not have a name because most of the land was in central Australia and so it did not impact many communities. "The 1974/75 fires had almost no impact and much of the damage was found by satellite after the fact," Prof Pyne told news.com.au.
...
AUSTRALIA, 1974

Death toll: 3 people in NSW

Damage: About 117 million hectares

During the summer between 1974 and 1975, Australia experienced its worst bushfire season in 30 years.

About 15 per cent of Australia's physical land mass sustained extensive fire damage.

New South Wales was badly affected with widespread damage to infrastructure, including communications, roads, railways and property fencing. Farmers lost crops and livestock. The areas affected included those in the western part of the state in Cobar Shire, Balranald, Glendale and regions around the Lower Hunter. The overall damage cost was estimated at approximately A$5 million.


But instead of saying which fire swings a bigger dick, the qualitative differences need to not only be noted factually but explained in their significance.
So we see the example of the 74-75 fires being the result of vegetation growth, a lot more grass.
What does this mean in contrast to the recent and ongoing fires that were a result of dryness and severe drought conditions amidst one of the worst heatwaves across Australia? What is the relationship of one to the other? Because they seem to be two different fires and one is neither a golden bullet against or for climate change.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/22/australia-bushfires-factcheck-are-this-years-fires-unprecedented
But scientists says fire conditions today are fundamentally different, and fundamentally worse in many ways, when compared with some of the fires experienced in the past.

The centre’s director, Ross Bradstock, says the 1974 fires burned through largely remote country mostly in the state’s far west, devouring green, non-woody herbaceous plants. The conditions were created by above average rainfall which produced ample fuel in outback grasslands.

By contrast, the fires in the east of the state this year have been fuelled by a lack of rain. The extent of the fires is in significant part driven by the amount of dry fuel available, some of it in highly unlikely places, and the amount of dry fuel is linked to the record-breaking drought.

Rainfall between January and August 2019 was the lowest on record in some areas, including the northern tablelands of NSW and Queensland’s southern downs. Parts of both states experienced record low soil moisture. As temperatures and wind speeds increased but humidity remained low, conditions were primed for small fires to become major conflagrations.

Because it's not the case of burning up larger vegetation but also that it has occurred in areas thought resistant to fires ie rainforests.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/07/record-breaking-49m-hectares-of-land-burned-in-nsw-this-bushfire-season
“Some of the fires in the north of the state in November were going through rainforest. There are areas, say Kanangra national park, west of the Blue Mountains, that has not been burnt in recorded history.”


If we're to talk about climate change then we have to actually examine it in causal relation to the fires, how the climate has affected weather patterns and how the weather has made extremely favorable conditions for the present fires. The comparison has to be mediated by certain qualities for point of comparison and value of their qualities in relation to an understanding of the global climate trends and the particulars of the ongoing fire which was predicted as a result of the Indian Dipole which has been one of it's strongest positive's as of late.
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Also add the Statosospheric warming over Antarica.
https://publicnewsupdate.com/news/climate-change-is-making-australias-weird-weather-even-weirder/
Many of the biggest fires in Australia have occurred where forecasters anticipated the risk was the highest. One of the main signals of the extreme heat and drought of 2019 emerged when the Indian Ocean Dipole, the temperature gradient between the eastern and western parts of the Indian Ocean, reached record strength. This pushed moisture away from Australia in the spring. There was also a bout of sudden stratospheric warming over Antarctica, also reaching record levels. This heated air over Antarctica was channeled toward Australia’s surface with the help of the Southern Annular Mode, a westerly band of wind circling Antarctica.

The hot, dry conditions in 2019 also came after Australia’s third winter in a row with very low precipitation. That means there was precious little water on the ground to soak up heat, allowing the landmass to get hotter and hotter.

It turned out that the middle of the continent absorbed so much heat that it overwhelmed the moderating influence of the oceans on the coasts. “What we saw recently was essentially the hot and dry interior impinging on the coasts because winds from the pressure systems were bringing that sort of hot, dry … central Australian air or Western Queensland air onto those coastal areas, and that’s part of the reason why we had such extreme fires,” Howden said.

Earlier in the article
Why Australia’s weather is so erratic
Several factors contribute to Australia’s notoriously shifty climate. Australia’s landmass is large enough to include climate regions from the tropics in the north to deserts in the middle to temperate regions in the south.

The continent is also situated between the Antarctic, Indian, and Pacific oceans. Along Australia’s coasts, these oceans act like buffers and help moderate the climate in cities like Sydney. But Australia is a continent, which means it experiences continentality, a phenomenon where inland areas far from water experience a wider temperature range than the coasts.

That’s not to say that oceans don’t influence the middle of Australia. The surrounding bodies of water undergo periodic changes in water and atmospheric circulation patterns: El Niño, the Indian Ocean Dipole, the Southern Annular Mode, and so on.

Depending on the phase of their cycles, these patterns can bring torrential rains, searing heat, high winds, or cool breezes. When several patterns align, they can easily push weather toward extremes, particularly in the middle of the continent. That’s a big reason Australia has the most variable rainfall of any continent, explained Howden.

“When we get a wet year in Australia, it’s actually detectable in terms of the sea level rise across the globe because there can be so much water sitting on the continent that you can actually lower the sea level a little bit,” Howden said.

Even in Australia’s driest year on record, cities like Townsville in Queensland saw massive rainfall and flooding.
Another factor in Australia’s weird weather is that it doesn’t have a large inland system of lakes and rivers. Some large lakes can form during periods of torrential rain, but those lakes aren’t very deep, which means they don’t store much heat and can evaporate quickly. That reduces their capacity to cushion surrounding regions against temperature extremes.

Australia also doesn’t have a large, snow-capped mountain range like other continental landmasses. Melting mountain snow can act as a reservoir for water throughout the year and keep rivers and lakes topped up. For Australia, this makes inland areas more dependent on rainfall and more vulnerable to drying out in droughts than areas that do have white peaks to supply water.

Together, these elements leave many parts of Australia ping-ponging between deluges and droughts as well as heat and cooler air.

The influence of these winds, temperatures and such on the variability of weather conditions in Australia and the risk of fires is of interest.
[ulr=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6752822/]Understanding the variability of Australian fire weather between 1973 and 2017[/url]
In addition to this interannual variability, the climate of Australia is changing over longer time scales. The State of the Climate 2018 report for Australia [26] notes that the average surface temperatures have increased by just over 1.0° C since 1910, with about 70% of this change occurring since the 1970s. There has also been about a 10–20% decline in cool season rainfall across southern Australia since the 1970s, while many parts of northern Australia have seen wetter conditions. Coincident with these changes, an increasing trend in seasonal values of FFDI has been noted across much of southern Australia [3,4]. These changes are believed to be closely associated with the observed global increase in greenhouse gases, but the signal is potentially modulated by the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation (IPO), an ENSO-like pattern of decadal (i.e. 10–40 year) SST variability that has been identified through statistical analysis of historical records [27] and linked to fire risk [15]. While the science of climate change continues to strengthen, Australian fire weather studies have less often investigated the link between observed increases in fire weather and climate change. However, a recent study based on gridded data across Australia found that changes in fire weather conditions in southern Australia are attributable, at least in part, to anthropogenic climate change, including in relation to increasing temperatures [3].
...
This discussion here strongly points to anthropogenic climate change as one of the major causes of long-term variability in fire weather in Australia, particularly in the southern portions of the continent, consistent with conclusions based on gridded data throughout Australia [3] complementary to the approach of this study based on station data. However, this is not an attribution study, and the evidence presented here remains circumstantial. A formal attribution study of FFDI in southeastern Australia presented by [75] did indicate that an anthropogenic climate signal was detectable in the FFDI record, while [76] are less clear about the link. As suggested here, the magnitude of the anthropogenic signal in [75] was smaller than the swings suggested by ENSO. We also note that anthropogenic climate change may also impact fire weather indirectly, for example by modifying the underlying climate drivers. For example, a future increase in the frequency of El Niño events and positive IOD events [46,47] as well as increasing positive polarity of the SAM index [77] have all been suggested under global warming scenarios. Additionally, a recent study by [78] found that the trend and variability of Southern Hemisphere climate modes are (amongst others) being driven by climate change. The dynamics of global warming and its interactions with modes of interannual and decadal variability and its effect on fire weather in Australia remain uncertain.


So the work that needs to be done really is to contextualize the recent weather across Australia in relation to changes in the overall weather and how it relates to ENSO, IOP and SAM which are significant influences upon wet and dry conditions in Australia and hence the risk of fire.
#15060543
Potemkin wrote:Look on the bright side though, @Atlantis - eventually there won't be any more Australians to annoy everyone. Clouds and silver linings, you know.... ;)


I think they'll just emigrate to fuck up some other place. Anyways, climate change deniers are a global problem. It's endemic in the Anglosphere.
#15060575
Atlantis wrote:Following the unprecedented wildfires that burnt through tens of millions of acres and killed a billion animals, Australia has been hit by torrential rainfalls that washed away topsoil left unprotected by the fires. And now the country is hit by huge dust storms that blow away vast amounts of soil.

The soil will get poorer, the vegetation sparse and dry. Each year it'll get a little worse as temperatures rise and extreme whether events get worse due to climate change.

But Australians are stuck in denial as they belch more and more coal into the atmosphere.

Amen, Atlantis.

Image
This type of garment is called a "hoodie" or - where I live - a kangaroo.

I have been wearing a blue kangaroo for the last month to show my solidarity with all the other species (who've lived in Australia far longer than the humans) that have to suffer the indignity of living among suicidally-stupid humans who are diving headlong into extinction, and bringing those poor, blue kangaroos down with them.
#15060902

Image

Gist: the above is data on the increase in the average temperature of Australia’s climate. Data before 1910 has a wide margin for error due to being based on partial data before standardized measurements by weather stations beginning in 1908.

The fire bug issue is brought up in emphasizing as opposed to the nearly 200 arsonists in headlines, the actual number of arsonists can’t plausibly be linked to the recent fires and hence the scant details in actually linking them. As such arsonists tend to be where people dwell and in things like bins. And such fires tend to be noticed and dealt with unlike fires started by lightning strikes on dry bushland where it isn’t as readily visible and is harder to get fire fighting resources to. And whilst more fires have been started by arsonists than by lightning strikes, the lightning strikes have tended tk create the bigger fires for reasons just mentioned. So data on causes of fire doesn’t in itself correlate to the significance of the fires size and impact.

Many have correctly noted what I mentioned earlier in regards to influences on Australias climate, the ID and SAM. Which have always cause dryer seasons and drought and as such xlimate change can’t be cited as a direct cause if the fires. But it is true that climate change has played a role in exacerbating the strength of the ID and SAM as they are based in sea and air temperatures. And a big part of the inference on the existence of climate change has been based on rising sea levels that are due to its expansion because of the heat absorbed by earths oceans. There is research that has examined the increased intensity of climate changes increased average temperatures primarily due to increases in carbon, and the ID. So whilst some skeptica will acknowledge the very thing I mentioned earlier, that the ID was particularly powerful this last year and it was predicted that Australia would experience more extreme weather, they tend to ignore the actual inference of climate changes influence on it and how its made it worse and thus why more extreme weather is predicted with climate change for Australia. Climate change doesn’t directly cause fires or drought but it does have influence upon the processes which do and it seems to have done so with the increase in the average by a degree. At this point climatologists are shitting themselves about how bad ir could get with a further increase in the average global temperature by more degrees.

To have avoided this increase, climate change action was needed back in the 80s when the issue first emerged but now politicians are simply avoiding any political responsibility for the international problem. Instead they attempt to downplay Australias role in climate change by citing percentages to make it sound insignificant and thus futile to do anything to stop the “unstoppable”. The unstoppable being the changes which have already occurred, the increase i. The average temp of the globe. Fires like the one we just seen aren’t going to be irregular if they’re possible now. We aren’t reversing the global average temperature and so action is needed bow so that 30 years from bow, the effects of good policy is actually felt. Rather than a repeat of the inaction since the 80s that has us in the current situation.
Last edited by Wellsy on 23 Jan 2020 03:52, edited 1 time in total.
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