Australian Bushfire Crisis - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15058130
colliric wrote:Lol.

Despite him directly referring to those values in this specific sentence:


Now who's ignoring the science? Even from scientists on your own side, lol.

It is "not clear" despite the fact the person made it clear in a specific sentence.


No.

I posted all the relevant text so that people could read it for themselves and see that yiu deliberately conflated two separate sentences in order to attack environmentalists even though they had nothing to do with it.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/it- ... 53okc.html

This Aboriginal man explicitly stated his property was saved by burning traditionally and that the Ecologists, government and National Parks departments caused trouble for him and tried to stop him.


Show me any post anywhere where you have supported Aboriginal control of the land. Or show me anywhere where conservative Australian politicians have done so.

Until then, you are just using people like this to attack environmentalists and ignoring the fact that the entire state apparatus of Australia is ignoring Aboriginal land control.
#15058132
If i was hindsight :excited:

Its divine punishment from GOD for exporting all that coal, destroying nature and not having any climate policy compared to any other developed nation even the US has one,

HaLLeLujah.
#15058139
JohnRawls wrote:If i was hindsight :excited:

Its divine punishment from GOD for exporting all that coal, destroying nature and not having any climate policy compared to any other developed nation even the US has one,

HaLLeLujah.
This statement is, unfortunately, against his belief. He probably believes the divine punishment is about something else.
#15058190


I'm more worried about koalas. Over 50 per cent of the population has been lost so far and an Aussie woman said to the US nightly news show that there would be no more koalas in the worst case scenario.
#15058240
Pants-of-dog wrote:Wow.

I guess that Watson person did not read the articles.

Because he really got the number wrong.

It is actually 24.


Arson in Australia is defined as starting a fire delibrately no matter how you started it, including going "fuck this" and chucking a lit cigarette butt into the scrubs, lighting a fire when there is a total fire ban or leaving a campfire unattended.
#15058246
I can’t say I see much convincing in points about arsonists and the attribution of lack of burnings to a minority party ie The Greens in explaining why this fire is the worst in recent memory.
Even if established as true it doesn’t do much than leave the issue at speculation not showing the clear weight of such an asserted issue and the massive fires springing up across the east and south east of Australia.

And why earlier I mentioned the futility of speaking vaguely about climate change is that this doesn't give an explanatory concept as to most people its to abstract to grapple.
Hence the point more specifically about Australians own indian el nino.

Which I think the only way one could argue against is in skepticism of the methods that establish such a relationship to the point of denying the very notion of it.
The weather is the biggest determinant of fire hazard hence why in hot and dry conditions no matter what one enacts a fire ban. And the weather was ripe for this fire storm.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/this-is-not-normal-what-s-different-about-the-nsw-mega-fires-20191110-p5395e.html
In NSW, our worst fire years were almost always during an El Nino event, and major property losses generally occurred from late November to February. Based on more than a century of weather observations our official fire danger season is legislated from October 1 to March 31. During the 2000s though, major fires have regularly started in August and September, and sometimes go through to April.

The October 2013 fires that destroyed more than 200 homes were the earliest large-loss fires in NSW history – again, not during an El Nino.

This year, by the beginning of November, we had already lost about as many homes as during the disastrous 2001-2002 bushfire season. We’ve now eclipsed 1994 fire losses. Fires are burning in places and at intensities never before experienced – rainforests in northern NSW, tropical Queensland, and the formerly wet old-growth forests in Tasmania.

On Friday, the NSW Rural Fire Service sent out an alert that fires were creating thunderstorms – pyro-convective events. In my 47 years of fighting fires I don’t remember this happening much. Now it happens quite regularly. On Friday, the atmosphere was relatively stable and therefore shouldn’t have been conducive to these wildly unpredictable and dangerous events. Yet it happened. Unprecedented.

The drought we are facing is more intense than the Millennium Drought, with higher levels of evaporation due to higher temperatures. This has dried out the bush and made it easier for fires to start, easier for them to spread quickly, and as we saw on Friday, enabling spot fires to start twice as far ahead of the main fires as we would normally expect.

Warmer, drier conditions with higher fire danger are preventing agencies from conducting as much hazard reduction burning – it is often either too wet, or too dry and windy to burn safely. Blaming "greenies" for stopping these important measures is a familiar, populist, but basically untrue claim.

Together with 22 other retired fire and emergency service chiefs, I spoke out earlier this year. We felt we had a duty to tell people how climate change is super-charging our natural disaster risks. I wish we were wrong, but we’re not.


He emphasizes the word unprecedented. The point being that one has to discern whether this is honestly just a matter of quantity or this is fact discernibly something of a different quality. The ocean is made of water just as a small puddle is but one discerns their different quantities through qualities emphasized in their very name. Of course one could mistake the variance by only referring to them as water just as a fire in my backyard uses the same label as those raging now. But with the increasingly anomalous, unprecedented or irregular qualities of these bushfires one has to explain what changed and arsonists and assertions of a lack of control burns being an ideological product than a practical limitation of the increasingly hot and dry climate doesn’t explain much. They as facts don’t hold the explanatory power and hence they are only associatively mentioned and not properly explained how they played so significant a causal role in this mass scale of bushfires.

I’m no expert on the weather, fires and such but if The force of persuasion extends only as far as it has thus, a new strategy is in order as it seems ill fitted to the task.
#15058251
colliric wrote:Arson in Australia is defined as starting a fire delibrately no matter how you started it, including going "fuck this" and chucking a lit cigarette butt into the scrubs, lighting a fire when there is a total fire ban or leaving a campfire unattended.


From your source:

    Legal action taken against 183 people this bushfire season

    NSW Police have taken legal action against 183 people so far this bushfire season, including charging 24 people with deliberately lighting bushfires.

    Since November, police have also taken legal action against 53 people for failing to comply with a total fire ban and against 47 people for discarding a lighted cigarette or match on land.

    Legal action ranges from cautioning to laying criminal charges, police said on Monday.

    Bushfires have killed 18 people - including three Rural Fire Service volunteers - and millions of animals, destroyed over 1400 homes and burnt through over 4.9 million hectares of land since October.

    Two people remain unaccounted for, Premier Gladys Berejiklian said on Monday morning.

    "We hope that ends in good news," she said. "At this stage, we can't account for their safety."

    Among the 24 charged with the deliberate lighting of fires was 19-year-old RFS volunteer Blake William Banner, who was arrested in relation to seven different fires in the Bega Valley.

    None of those fires are threatening the South Coast.

    Strike Force Toronto - made up of specialist investigators from the Financial Crimes Squad's Arson Unit - is also investigating a fire at Georges Hall in Sydney's south-west over the weekend, which they say was deliberately lit.

    Detectives are also investigating a fire they believe was deliberately lit at Jindabyne on Friday.

So, this Watson person was deliberately misrepresenting the facts to make it seem like there hundreds of arsonists deliberately trying to start bushfires, when in fact there were a small fraction of that.

Also note how this Watsom person claimed they were arrested, while the actual news source says that legal action was taken, and that this action sometimes amounted to nothing more than a caution.
#15058304
Melbourne had some great rain the last two days, and not much smoke.

Chile and south America is apparently getting worse Australian Bushfire smoke than Melbourne is.

Hopefully it means we might get some more rain out where it needs to be.

jimjam wrote:Image


https://au.news.yahoo.com/the-ugly-trut ... 09252.html

Yeah it's Fake News mate. The photo's not a real picture of the fires.

@Pants-of-dog no point arguing with you, since you refuse to understand the local Australian definition of Arson. The Australian newspaper called all 183 arrests "arson arrests" because that is how Australians generally define Arson locally. We live in a Bushfire prone society. I put two sources. One is behind a paywall but the title says it all. Australians do not define Arson the same way you do overseas.
#15058306
Atlantis wrote:Smoke cover if the Australian wildfires were in the Iberian peninsula.

Image
To start, Eurasia does not have such a large bushland / dryland, and so sparsely populated for fire to spread so freely.
#15058307
No, the paper did not call then arrests because they were not all arrested.

Again, people can read the actual article and see how Watson deliberately misrepresented facts.

And again, out of the 183 people, only 24 deliberately started bushfires.
#15058308
colliric wrote:Melbourne had some great rain the last two days, and not much smoke.

Chile and south America is apparently getting worse Australian Bushfire smoke than Melbourne is.

Hopefully it means we might get some more rain out where it needs to be.



https://au.news.yahoo.com/the-ugly-trut ... 09252.html

Yeah it's Fake News mate. The photo's not a real picture of the fires.

@Pants-of-dog no point arguing with you, since you refuse to understand the local Australian definition of Arson. The Australian newspaper called all 183 arrests "arson arrests" because that is how Australians generally define Arson locally. We live in a Bushfire prone society. I put two sources. One is behind a paywall but the title says it all. Australians do not define Arson the same way you do overseas.
Given that the majority of Australia is essentially desert, there is simply not enough fuel for the fire to burn that intensively. In addition, some of the positions of the flame would have a genocidal effect had they been real.
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