[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu your experience has been mixed and you don't glorify work? I like that attitude. I think people should work but their work should be meaningful and reflect who they are inside and what they enjoy accomplishing. One spends a lot of time working. Make it enjoyable and rewarding. If it is drudgery and unrewarding? it will lead to profound dissatisfaction with life.

I sometimes took jobs for paying bills and sometimes wound up enjoying the job unexpectedly. Sometimes I took jobs I thought I would enjoy and wound up not liking them. Because it was not about what I thought it was about. But I always worked.

My husband had a co-worker who went through very difficult times in her life. Raising three kids as a single mother while going to graduate school and living in a ghetto in NYC and then moving to Colorado and having her daughter commit suicide and getting flesh eating bacteria while not having private insurance and losing all of her savings and going from excellent credit to bad credit. Having domestic violence in her life. Not having the ability to cope with a lot of personal problems. But she told my husband so very true about working in jobs one doesn't find satisfying like it should be for working people....she said to him in Spanish---At the end of the day you work and it is a challenge and a daily test of character, and if you make it through without going crazy or getting fired, you should feel good about it, after all? You are bringing home the food for the family's table. And that is also sacred.

She was right about that one.

Thanks for sharing, as ever, Tainari.

@ckaihatsu you have such interesting opinions. I hope you and I can discuss many of your views in depth someday eh?

Are we going to have to speak *Canadian* for this?


= )

[Julian658]

Police brutality is a symptom of the capitalist *state* -- the ruling class uses the state, and its monopoly on violence, to oppress and exploit the *working* class, including people of color.

What is a person of color? I do not like labels that have to do with the phenotype of humans. It is obviously the term in vogue on the left.

The question that begs an answer: Who gains more form the poor or the oppressed? The Republicans? Or the Democrats? Clearly this is more beneficial for the Democrats,.

I think the political responsibility that communists like myself have at *this* point is to lay-out what's worth fighting for -- hence my diagrams and discussion-board participation. It's also encouraging now to see the worldwide mass participation against police brutality. I hope this *political* front will also become *class consciousness*, in the direction of a workers-of-the-world socialism, because anything less, like the current knee-jerk reforms, will just get *diluted* over time.

The commie cops can also be brutal.

Yup, well, that's *you* -- ultimately everyone on earth should be *co-administrating*, so that we're all at the same level professionally, with *no one* in any subservient, wage-slave position.

Obviously I don't glorify work, but it can be a beneficial experience for some, being in a professional work environment, besides the pay, although I wouldn't *prescribe* it to anyone as such. My own experience has been 'mixed', shall we say.

I may say I hate to work, then I take a week off and if I am not traveling i don't know what to do.

[ckaihatsu]

What is a person of color? I do not like labels that have to do with the phenotype of humans. It is obviously the term in vogue on the left.

It's a *demographic* term, and *you've* used the terms 'black' and 'white', to refer to people.

What term would you *prefer* to use?

Also, it's not just a generic 'label' -- it has to do with how people of various demographics have been treated *historically*.

The question that begs an answer: Who gains more form the poor or the oppressed? The Republicans? Or the Democrats? Clearly this is more beneficial for the Democrats,.

You acknowledged the two-party ruling class -- it's a *power* structure, and the historically oppressed, people of color, are a continual *threat* to that white-supremacist elitist power structure.

The commie cops can also be brutal.

Again you mean 'Stalinist', or 'state capitalist'.

A post-capitalist workers-of-the-world global socialism would *not* have a state administration / state, so there would be *no* cops, because there would be nothing to *enforce*. There would no longer be 'power' because there would be no class divide, or material privileges for some with no-privileges for others.

I may say I hate to work, then I take a week off and if I am not traveling i don't know what to do.

May I suggest looking into 3D graphics? It's at a very good point right now, if you have any inclination. If you have Java on your computer you can run this free software, that I use primarily:

http://artofillusion.org/downloads


Warning: It's a real time-sink, and it's addictive if you happen to like this kind of thing.

Take a look at the gallery, and at the documentation:

http://artofillusion.org/artgallery

http://www.artofillusion.org/docs/AoI%2 ... tents.html

[Tainari88]

Thanks for sharing, as ever, Tainari.





Are we going to have to speak *Canadian* for this?


= )

Are you from Canada?

What city or town did you grow up in?

I will tell you the cities I lived in or worked in the USA? NYC, North Brunswick New Jersey, San Diego California, San Francisco, California, Denver, Colorado, Las Cruces, New Mexico, Ogden, Utah also Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

The cities I visited or stayed for a short period? Because of my mother's work or my own? Are almost forty five states and two other foreign nations and about 29 states in Mexico, the Caribbean islands, etc. So? The Americas is my deal. But I never visited Canada even once. So I am an ignoramus about Canada. Lol.

Every weekend I used to visit a different city or town in Colorado until I knew almost all of them well. And also many cities in New Mexico. Santa Fe, New Mexico is only five hours drive from Denver, Colorado. I would go on a long weekend with my husband and family and visit there all the time. It was fun.

I like the Southwestern style of life. Lots of space, and a laid back atmosphere. I also loved the Indigenous people there.

I am pleased with my travels. I might go to Europe someday. It sure does have some cities I would like to know.

I also want to visit Africa. Especially Ghana and Senegal.

For some reason I get along really really well with Nigerians and people from the Congo. So easy for the African women and I to love each other. The easiest friendships have been with them. And their sons and daughters.

People and all their diverse ways of expressing themselves? Are the best. Who wants boring homogeneity in humanity eh Ckaihatsu. Certainly not me. I like how beauty doesn't discriminate. It doles out the beauty fairly even handedly to many cultures.

[ckaihatsu]

Are you from Canada?

No, it's because you said 'eh' at the end of your sentence.

What city or town did you grow up in?

I'm from Chicago. Been traveling lately.

I will tell you the cities I lived in or worked in the USA? NYC, North Brunswick New Jersey, San Diego California, San Francisco, California, Denver, Colorado, Las Cruces, New Mexico, Ogden, Utah also Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

Cool -- yeah, I've been through San Diego, San Francisco, Denver, and Oklahoma City, from that list.

The cities I visited or stayed for a short period? Because of my mother's work or my own? Are almost forty five states and two other foreign nations and about 29 states in Mexico, the Caribbean islands, etc. So? The Americas is my deal. But I never visited Canada even once. So I am an ignoramus about Canada. Lol.

Nice! Yeah, that's a *lot*. Would you ever visit Central America?

Every weekend I used to visit a different city or town in Colorado until I knew almost all of them well. And also many cities in New Mexico. Santa Fe, New Mexico is only five hours drive from Denver, Colorado. I would go on a long weekend with my husband and family and visit there all the time. It was fun.

I like the Southwestern style of life. Lots of space, and a laid back atmosphere. I also loved the Indigenous people there.

I am pleased with my travels. I might go to Europe someday. It sure does have some cities I would like to know.

I also want to visit Africa. Especially Ghana and Senegal.

For some reason I get along really really well with Nigerians and people from the Congo. So easy for the African women and I to love each other. The easiest friendships have been with them. And their sons and daughters.

People and all their diverse ways of expressing themselves? Are the best. Who wants boring homogeneity in humanity eh Ckaihatsu. Certainly not me. I like how beauty doesn't discriminate. It doles out the beauty fairly even handedly to many cultures.

Excellent. Good to hear. I don't think I'm *quite* as adventurous -- I tend to like to do my own thing with my time, but that can always change.

[Tainari88]

No, it's because you said 'eh' at the end of your sentence.





I'm from Chicago. Been traveling lately.





Cool -- yeah, I've been through San Diego, San Francisco, Denver, and Oklahoma City, from that list.





Nice! Yeah, that's a *lot*. Would you ever visit Central America?





Excellent. Good to hear. I don't think I'm *quite* as adventurous -- I tend to like to do my own thing with my time, but that can always change.

I say 'eh' at the end because of Spanish. Not English. Hee hee.

You are from Chicago. I visited that city for the first time in 2016 when I stayed in Michigan. Very good food and bad traffic at rush hour.

It is too dark and cold in the winter for my mental health. But the lakes are like oceans. Never expected those lakes to be that VAST.

No, never been to Central America. But I do have three invites to do there by people from there. Juanita Batzibal and Rigoberta Menchu from Guatemala, a friend's family from Nicaragua, and some very great people from Panama that I know. They all invited me to stay at their homes.

Honduras and El Salvador with a little boy are WAY too dangerous in general not knowing people well. Honduras capital Tegucigalpa has large parts of the capitol that are totally crime ridden and unsafe. El Salvador has gangs shipped out of Los Angeles that with their money and the many decades of the fallout of civil war done on the Salvadorans? They are in deep chaos. Can't visit it. But Salvadorans are the nicest people. Really wonderful. I like their food too. Pupuserias.

[Julian658]

It's a *demographic* term, and *you've* used the terms 'black' and 'white', to refer to people.

What term would you *prefer* to use?

Also, it's not just a generic 'label' -- it has to do with how people of various demographics have been treated *historically*.

I am often forced to use the terms for the sake of communication. Otherwise, I would do like the Cubans or the French who have decided to leave the classification of people according to phenotype behind. IN America there is more racial classification than in the old South Africa, NAZI Germany, or in the Old South during slavery. This classification causes division which is the natural byproduct of classification. Then you see black people applying the one drop rule they learned from the slave masters. That is why they now call an Asian person a person of color. Furthermore, in my youth the term colored was offensive (at least to me).

You acknowledged the two-party ruling class -- it's a *power* structure, and the historically oppressed, people of color, are a continual *threat* to that white-supremacist elitist power structure.

I agree, but the threat is much greater to the Democrats because they would have no purpose to exist. The Dems used to be the party of the middle class and blue collar worker. The Dems are now the party of the so-called minorities and as you say POC. This precipitated the resurgence of Donald Trump types in the world. For every action there is a reaction.

If you asked a black left winger in 2006: Would the USA ever elect a black president they would have said "Hell no, this is a racist country". Then Obama got elected and 8 years later the same person shrugs off the fact that Obama was elected. It means nothing these days, Whereas I see it as a monumental achievement.

If you asked a left winger about gay marriage 20 years ago they would have said, "not likely, too many homophobes". Now gay marriage is no big deal. So they moved into the Transgender issue and bathrooms to make noise.

Police brutality has been declining, but the racial PTSD is on the rise.

Harmony is difficult to obtain.

Again you mean 'Stalinist', or 'state capitalist'.

A post-capitalist workers-of-the-world global socialism would *not* have a state administration / state, so there would be *no* cops, because there would be nothing to *enforce*. There would no longer be 'power' because there would be no class divide, or material privileges for some with no-privileges for others.

Sounds great on paper.

[ckaihatsu]

I say 'eh' at the end because of Spanish. Not English. Hee hee.

(grin)

You are from Chicago. I visited that city for the first time in 2016 when I stayed in Michigan. Very good food and bad traffic at rush hour.

Yup, that's the one. Rather urban-*beautiful*, too. I do get a little *twinge* from being away from it, at times.

If you ever get back there make sure to check out the Blues Fest, right around this time of the year.

I did a panoramic photo of it, at one of the stages:

It is too dark and cold in the winter for my mental health.

Yeah, no shit -- that's a big reason why I left. The summers are great, but that's only *two months*, there.

But the lakes are like oceans. Never expected those lakes to be that VAST.

Just one lake, but yeah, it has presence, and the city melts away behind you when you're there.

No, never been to Central America. But I do have three invites to do there by people from there. Juanita Batzibal and Rigoberta Menchu from Guatemala, a friend's family from Nicaragua, and some very great people from Panama that I know. They all invited me to stay at their homes.

Very cool. And here I have trouble with people accepting my *cash* -- ! (grin)

Honduras and El Salvador with a little boy are WAY too dangerous in general not knowing people well. Honduras capital Tegucigalpa has large parts of the capitol that are totally crime ridden and unsafe. El Salvador has gangs shipped out of Los Angeles that with their money and the many decades of the fallout of civil war done on the Salvadorans? They are in deep chaos. Can't visit it. But Salvadorans are the nicest people. Really wonderful. I like their food too. Pupuserias.

Yeah, I've seen some documentaries. It's too bad -- and now the immigration thing is being held up to an extreme by Trump. Sickening, the history of U.S. imperialism in Latin America.

[ckaihatsu]

I am often forced to use the terms for the sake of communication. Otherwise, I would do like the Cubans or the French who have decided to leave the classification of people according to phenotype behind. IN America there is more racial classification than in the old South Africa, NAZI Germany, or in the Old South during slavery. This classification causes division which is the natural byproduct of classification. Then you see black people applying the one drop rule they learned from the slave masters. That is why they now call an Asian person a person of color. Furthermore, in my youth the term colored was offensive (at least to me).

I still think you're missing the point, though, Julian -- it's not about the *word choice*, or 'label', as much as it's about what that term *refers* to, meaning the *social history* of how blacks (etc.) have been *treated* in society. Since you acknowledge racism, just think of the *history* that blacks have been through *because* of slavery and racism.

The U.S. is relatively more *diverse*, from immigration, so there's more demographic categorization that has to be done, to refer to people's national and ethnic histories. It's not *automatically* a bad thing, to reference people's cultural histories, as long as we first *know* what those histories have been, and also that it's not necessarily *personal* to any given person.

I agree, but the threat is much greater to the Democrats because they would have no purpose to exist. The Dems used to be the party of the middle class and blue collar worker. The Dems are now the party of the so-called minorities and as you say POC. This precipitated the resurgence of Donald Trump types in the world. For every action there is a reaction.

If you asked a black left winger in 2006: Would the USA ever elect a black president they would have said "Hell no, this is a racist country". Then Obama got elected and 8 years later the same person shrugs off the fact that Obama was elected. It means nothing these days, Whereas I see it as a monumental achievement.

If you asked a left winger about gay marriage 20 years ago they would have said, "not likely, too many homophobes". Now gay marriage is no big deal. So they moved into the Transgender issue and bathrooms to make noise.

Police brutality has been declining, but the racial PTSD is on the rise.

Harmony is difficult to obtain.

Well, this is more of a *cultural* analysis, and you can have it, of course, but I still see the two parties, Democrat and Republican, as being the *ruling class*. They *both* benefit, power-wise, from doing the 'shell game' on the rest of us, every election cycle.

Yes, the reforms you're referring to are important, but that's in the domain of what I would call 'civil society' -- which has *zero* to do with workers power or overthrowing bourgeois two-party elitist class rule.


---

A post-capitalist workers-of-the-world global socialism would *not* have a state administration / state, so there would be *no* cops, because there would be nothing to *enforce*. There would no longer be 'power' because there would be no class divide, or material privileges for some with no-privileges for others.

Sounds great on paper.

Gotta start *somewhere*. Also, this is *reasoned-out*, so it's not just utopian-type daydreams.

You can think of it as 'civil society' expanding outward to encompass *everything*, with no more private property or ownership-elitist control of production goods (factories, etc.), and social production.

[Julian658]

Gotta start *somewhere*. Also, this is *reasoned-out*, so it's not just utopian-type daydreams.

You can think of it as 'civil society' expanding outward to encompass *everything*, with no more private property or ownership-elitist control of production goods (factories, etc.), and social production.

The last stage of communism looks a lot like the culmination of capitalism. I believe you are coming around to that point.

I thank you for been so eloquent in explaining the flaws of capitalism------that is the easy part. The dilemma is how to replace capitalism and so far no one knows (and that includes you).

BTW, we are becoming massively polarized and divided. This will either end in a far left socialist type state or a fascist authoritarian system. Either one will crash.

I also think that the Enlightenment has gone as far as it can go and we are now entering a phase of degeneration where good old fashion values will disappear. The nihilism will continue to grow and I envision people with money moving into exclusive isolated areas of the nation where there will be plenty of security and an impenetrable fence to keep others out.

The left has destroyed the American blacks with a constant message of victimhood. In fact, victimhood is what keeps people united on the left. It is brutally unhealthy to see oneself as a victim for a lifetime.

[ckaihatsu]

The last stage of communism looks a lot like the culmination of capitalism. I believe you are coming around to that point.

No, capitalism features private property, while communism *doesn't*.

I thank you for been so eloquent in explaining the flaws of capitalism------that is the easy part. The dilemma is how to replace capitalism and so far no one knows (and that includes you).

No, you're *incorrect*. There has to be a *general strike* by international labor, to *disempower* corporations, and to *empower* a workers-of-the-world socialism.

BTW, we are becoming massively polarized and divided.

Who's 'we' -- ?

What's happening is that people are becoming more socially and politically *aware*, and they're more willing to address the state racism of unchecked racist police brutality and murder.

This will either end in a far left socialist type state or a fascist authoritarian system. Either one will crash.

Your glib prognostications / opinions don't hold any weight because they sound like dystopian daydreams -- *anyone* can just make up a bunch of shit, like you're doing, but it doesn't *mean* anything because you're too detached from *reality*.

There's no such thing as a workers-of-the-world 'state', because those international workers would not *require* a state once the bourgeois two-party ruling class is *overthrown*. But, yes, there *would* be a *workers* state for that transition of class warfare *to* overthrow the bourgeoisie.

I also think that the Enlightenment has gone as far as it can go and we are now entering a phase of degeneration where good old fashion values will disappear. The nihilism will continue to grow and I envision people with money moving into exclusive isolated areas of the nation where there will be plenty of security and an impenetrable fence to keep others out.

The left has destroyed the American blacks with a constant message of victimhood. In fact, victimhood is what keeps people united on the left. It is brutally unhealthy to see oneself as a victim for a lifetime.

What do you call the results of *police brutality*, if not 'victimhood'?

It's not pretty, but we can't escape the fact that the world is not perfect, and that people are routinely *victimized*, thus they're *victims*, and we can do better than to *scapegoat* the victims for their victimhood.

You once mentioned the term 'justice' but you're more-often sounding *anti-justice*, by scapegoating the victims of racist police violence.

[QatzelOk]

I think people should work but their work should be meaningful and reflect who they are inside and what they enjoy accomplishing. One spends a lot of time working. Make it enjoyable and rewarding. If it is drudgery and unrewarding? it will lead to profound dissatisfaction with life.

I agree with this, but with a caveat.

CAVEAT: Once food, housing, education, health care and other essentials are secured for the entire population, other non-essential products can only be produced if the production of these non-essential products is made enjoyable and rewarding.

Within the essential producting services listed above, the number of employees will be increased to the point where work in these essential fields is both enjoyable and rewarding. Overtime and burnout will be eradicated in all fields.

If the number of people required to make essential services enjoyable and rewarding leaves NO ONE ELSE to do the other non-essential work, then the non-essential work will simply not exist.

[Tainari88]

I agree with this, but with a caveat.

CAVEAT: Once food, housing, education, health care and other essentials are secured for the entire population, other non-essential products can only be produced if the production of these non-essential products is made enjoyable and rewarding.

Within the essential producting services listed above, the number of employees will be increased to the point where work in these essential fields is both enjoyable and rewarding. Overtime and burnout will be eradicated in all fields.

If the number of people required to make essential services enjoyable and rewarding leaves NO ONE ELSE to do the other non-essential work, then the non-essential work will simply not exist.

Q, I am taking a novel-writing course. In it, the instructor is talking about how storytelling and producing art is what humans do. They find nonstop meaning in art. All the art forms. Is art in terms of music, dance, sculpting, painting, writing theater, poetry, plays, novels, short stories, personal narratives, and interviews, shows about conversational topics really essential services? No. But they are meaningful, and they are so beloved. Even in economic hard times like the Great Depression, people kept attending movie theaters. Even in today's digital era of Netflix and stay-at-home entertainment people love non-essentials. Art is one of those things that if you can't have it then why bother with the essentials eh?

Let us take culinary arts? You can pop in a sweet potato and boil a bag of black beans in water and eat the black beans, sweet potato, and also some alfalfa sprouts and kale and some almonds. You eat it without anything else on them. No salt, no pepper, no butter or olive oil or sofrito for the beans and you don't do the extras that make it all just perfect. That is what the nonessentials are for many people. You don't need them, but they sure do make things wonderful.

I think there is room for all professions. But one has to see if a human being can find something satisfying in it?

Scientists and artists that are very creative find tremendous meaning in their work. All the time.

I like human culture. What is human culture? A whole lot of things. Almost everything you can think of. What I find terrible is when people are no afforded opportunities to pursue their passions, and interests and to be given the way to do it with the support of the government, their communities, their families, and their peers.

The more people opening the way for self-realization for all of us? The better it is.

I find you of extreme enjoyment to read and to think about. You give me deep pleasure reading your opinions Q.

I enjoy it because it comes from your experiences. That only you can enjoy and express. By repressing that or belittling it? I would have deprived myself of the pleasure of it.

I agree with your last lines. If something is sheer drudgery and not fulfilling but so many people have to do it to earn a living and it is non-essential work? I say robots do it or machines and free up humans for creative things and satisfying work.

Let people do work they like. It makes for a better society.

i think there are a lot of people who enjoy acting, dancing, painting, writing but they have to 'turn a profit' or give it up. I say the government should see the arts as endemically life-enriching and should subsidize the artists who have real talent and let them do what is the most human. Create art that many others can enjoy.

i hope you educate me about Quebec and Canada one day Q.

[Julian658]

What do you call the results of *police brutality*, if not 'victimhood'?

It's not pretty, but we can't escape the fact that the world is not perfect, and that people are routinely *victimized*, thus they're *victims*, and we can do better than to *scapegoat* the victims for their victimhood.

You once mentioned the term 'justice' but you're more-often sounding *anti-justice*, by scapegoating the victims of racist police violence.

Anyone can be a victim. The issue is whether people should embrace the victim status on a perennial basis to explain their own personal failures. This also speaks to the issue of PTSD once a person has ben victimized. American blacks have been brutalized for a long time hence there is a collective victimhood PTSD pattern. Any psychologist will tell you this is not healthy.

The issue of racism in America is complex in that many black leaders have displaced ALL the work to be done to end racism on the lap of the white population. That will not work, it is an impossible task that demand that whites must deal with blacks very carefully and with a white gloves approach 24/7. The latter is not a normal loving interaction among humans.

In the Netflix series "Breaking Bad" there is a Anglo and Hispanic police officer duo. Throughout the series these two tell each other ethnic jokes that suggest they are really close friends and that the difference in skin color has vanished. Close relationships often include ribbing and teasing. If this is off limits then there is no real close relationship. The interaction becomes a transaction that is very carefully planned to make sure there are no errors.

Nevertheless, victimhood can give a person a sense of power and the ability to demand.

[ckaihatsu]

Anyone can be a victim. The issue is whether people should embrace the victim status on a perennial basis to explain their own personal failures. This also speaks to the issue of PTSD once a person has ben victimized. American blacks have been brutalized for a long time hence there is a collective victimhood PTSD pattern. Any psychologist will tell you this is not healthy.

The issue of racism in America is complex in that many black leaders have displaced ALL the work to be done to end racism on the lap of the white population. That will not work, it is an impossible task that demand that whites must deal with blacks very carefully and with a white gloves approach 24/7. The latter is not a normal loving interaction among humans.

In the Netflix series "Breaking Bad" there is a Anglo and Hispanic police officer duo. Throughout the series these two tell each other ethnic jokes that suggest they are really close friends and that the difference in skin color has vanished. Close relationships often include ribbing and teasing. If this is off limits then there is no real close relationship. The interaction becomes a transaction that is very carefully planned to make sure there are no errors.

Nevertheless, victimhood can give a person a sense of power and the ability to demand.

I'll leave all of the personal / individual psychology stuff to *you*, Julian.

*My* concern is at the *societal* level, of course, namely the interests of *justice*.

You've already roundly rebuffed a social trajectory towards *equality*, instead favoring the default economic / wealth hierarchy of *the market*, and now you're consistently championing *no justice*, instead of justice of *some* kind.

Simply dealing with the personal (PTSD, etc.) issues of the victims of police brutality, etc., is *insufficient* because then the power relations go unchallenged, and so then there will be a never-ending stream of *victims* at the hands of a never-ending line of *exonerated* violent, racist cops.

Wouldn't it be more sane and rational to seek to end the *cause* of people getting PTSD, rather than to *individualize* and 'therapize' an endless queue of victims / patients -- ? (!)

[ckaihatsu]

Ford will use this uncanny, human-like robot Digit to deliver packages — take a closer look at the bipedal machine



https://www.businessinsider.com/agility ... rry-2020-6

[ckaihatsu]

Nuro’s driverless delivery robots will transport medicine to CVS customers in Texas



https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/28/2127 ... ot-houston

[QatzelOk]

...i think there are a lot of people who enjoy acting, dancing, painting, writing but they have to 'turn a profit' or give it up. I say the government should see the arts as endemically life-enriching and should subsidize the artists who have real talent and let them do what is the most human. Create art that many others can enjoy.

Like I wrote above, IF there is human talent still available after all the basics of life have been produced in safe and rewarding environments, then pleasant decicions can be made to decide where surplus talent goes.

The idea that artistic fields must pay the rent... is kind of a product of slave-owning societies. With slaves lying around, artists of particular classes could free themselves of other forms of labor, and the class division of slavery convinced people that "artist" was another dividing line between haves and have-nots - some people have to produce life-basics, while others get to do ballet every day.

Michael Bloomberg's "art" or Donald Trump's "art" (of the Deal) are as easily defended as any non-utilitarian work.

(note: ckaihatsu, those wonderful green-geneering machines you posted above looks like they could easily kill humans without endangering the billionaire who is controlling them)

[Julian658]

Like I wrote above, IF there is human talent still available after all the basics of life have been produced in safe and rewarding environments, then pleasant decicions can be made to decide where surplus talent goes.

The idea that artistic fields must pay the rent... is kind of a product of slave-owning societies. With slaves lying around, artists of particular classes could free themselves of other forms of labor, and the class division of slavery convinced people that "artist" was another dividing line between haves and have-nots - some people have to produce life-basics, while others get to do ballet every day.

Michael Bloomberg's "art" or Donald Trump's "art" (of the Deal) are as easily defended as any non-utilitarian work.

(note: ckaihatsu, those wonderful green-geneering machines you posted above looks like they could easily kill humans without endangering the billionaire who is controlling them)

Many singers and rock stars make a living by simply singing the songs they have written. The become extremely wealthy and all they have to do is sing these songs that made them superstars. More that once I have heard how tedious and boring it is for a famous singer to have to sing the same song every other day for 20 years. There comes a time when they hate doing it and they may actually stop singing that song or totally change the song.

Middle of the pack professional golfers earn a nice living by just playing a game 4 times a week in a different city for 8 month a year. There comes a time when they get sick of playing and practicing golf everyday.

There is no such thing as a productive job that one can enjoy for a lifetime. At some point work becomes work and it is done because there is such a thing as work ethic or the desire to provide for the family.

Bach, one of the great composers that ever lived often had to produce new music every week for religious services. This became a chore and he would often copy previously written music to get the job out of the way.

As for inequality: Welcome to the real world, humans are not equal. It is therefore impossible to reach equality.

[ckaihatsu]

As for inequality: Welcome to the real world, humans are not equal. It is therefore impossible to reach equality.

You're being *disingenuous* yet-again, Julian, or else you're *flip-flopping*, yet-again.

Earlier you showed that you *understand* what the political sentiment of equality *is*, but here you let your reactionary ideological position get the better of you, and you revert to your dystopian worldview regarding 'equality'.

Here's from previously:

In the Star Trek of the 25th century there is no currency and poverty has vanished. The only thing that divides humans is achievement.

Well, okay, and I see no *political* problem with this -- 'equality' should be about equal access to the *raw materials* and *infrastructure* of modern life and living. Beyond that would be *civil society*, without any class divide, so concerns at that point would be *social* and not really 'political' -- in the sense of overcoming elitism.

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