[JohnRawls]

One problem: Mainlanders who actually view nation above respecting others' (and their own) rights still number far too many. In some sense Hongkongers are replaceable.

In a mathematical sense, China has enough minions to enter every Hong Kong household and round all of us up (obedient or not), then allocating other more well-off Mainlanders to come.

Of course the above is an exaggeration, but I believe China has a population replacement scheme in mind. The real test would be whether those "new" people would become rejecting their masters in due time (based on allegations that many protesters were born or immigrants after 1997)

Hong Kong will be free either as part of China or not as part of China eventually. It just depends what China will do in the future. If it democratisez then the issue is resolved but if it doesn't then i am afraid that China will just suffer the same fate that undemocratic illiberal wannabees suffer: The countries growth stagnates at a certain point(10-15k usd per capita or more), after that comes the rampant corruption and then some kind of massive change is required that can manifest in different forms.

[Beren]

EDIT: Trump is of course unreliable, but I find Democrats actually quite consistent on appeasing China whenever they are in power. Carter, Clinton and Obama era all saw good Chinese-American relations. This is why I have reservations on the scenario of Biden being elected.

All that crap is happening to you because of the trade war and growing tensions between China and the US under Trump, however, just keep your reservations of Biden, you stupid fucker.

[JohnRawls]

All that crap is happening to you because of the trade war and growing tensions between China and the US under Trump, however, just keep your reservations of Biden, you stupid fucker.

Uhm Beren, what if somebody took the independance and free elections from your country on top of basically telling you that you have almost no say and no rights? Would you support a candidate that is clearly against the entity that did this to you or would you endorse his opponent?

[skinster]

Uhm Beren, what if somebody took the independance and free elections from your country on top of basically telling you that you have almost no say and no rights?

What independence has rights have been removed? And here I call you a hypocrite for demanding the aforementioned but not giving a single fuck that the Palestinians have been denied it for 70+ years.

[JohnRawls]

What independence has rights have been removed? And here I call you a hypocrite for demanding the aforementioned but not giving a single fuck that the Palestinians have been denied it for 70+ years.

I do not deny the situation in Palestein vs Israel situation. Again, if you paid attention... I am pessimistic at a resolution happening in the conflict. So without there being a way for a resolution, i can only support Israel because it is much closer to European countries in many regards. If you provide a way for a solution then i will support it whole heartedly. I also wrote many times why i think that the current plans for a solution are not workable. Basically it will have to end by either the Arab countries pushing Israel in to the sea or Israel taking the rest of the territories.

[skinster]

I am pessimistic at a resolution happening in the conflict.

So you condone Zionist supremacy, not speaking against it.

So without there being a way for a resolution, i can only support Israel because it is much closer to European countries in many regards

Does Europe deny people the right to self-determination? Do authorities bulldoze houses of people based on their race etc? It is only European in the sense that it's the same as what Nazis did.

If you provide a way for a solution then i will support it whole heartedly.

Become a supporter of the BDS movement, which demands Israel align with Int Law and equal rights for all in the land of Israel/Palestine, not just one group.

I also wrote many times why i think that the current plans for a solution are not workable.

Which solution? When did you do this? Quote it.

Basically it will have to end by either the Arab countries pushing Israel in to the sea or Israel taking the rest of the territories.

What on earth are you talking about? Who's threatening to push Israel into the sea? Palestinians are asking for equal rights, that's it, because they don't have any.

[JohnRawls]

So you condone Zionist supremacy, not speaking against it.



Does Europe deny people the right to self-determination? Do authorities bulldoze houses of people based on their race etc? It is only European in the sense that it's the same as what Nazis did.



Become a supporter of the BDS movement, which demands Israel align with Int Law and equal rights for all in the land of Israel/Palestine, not just one group.



Which solution? When did you do this? Quote it.



What on earth are you talking about? Who's threatening to push Israel into the sea? Palestinians are asking for equal rights, that's it, because they don't have any.

If i don't support the Palestinian cause then it doesn't mean that i support everything that Israel does.
Europe does not deny self-rule principles, well, in 99% of the cases.

Regarding solutions: The situation has been fucked up for quite some time. As the country with power Israel should be actively seeking a resolution because eventually it will probably loose militarily be it in 50 years or 100 years or 200 years. I just don't see how that won't happen eventually.

The problem is that Israel is not really doing it and instead wants to mantaine the status quo. The best answer beyond rhetoric that I could figure out is that Israel is afraid. Afraid to make concessions, afraid that it will be considered weakness etc. Israel knows it is partially at fault for the situation, not just because the founding of Israel but also because the wars it fought. Situation has more or less improved a bit since the days of the cold war but this Paranoia still remains and it will remain until the generation of Netanyahu goes away. I am not sure what are the exact views of the next generation after Netanyahu but for him and his peers, it is impossible to get rid of the paranoia.

So the only acceptable solution for Israel is a peace that needs to be guaranteed by some entity like NATO. Or for example all 5 p5 nations will guarantee that they will declare war on any Arab country or Palestein If they launch even 1 rocket after the peace treaty is signed. Anything short of that is not acceptable.

Since that is not going to happen then peace is hardly possible unless a miracle happens. Lack of trust and paranoia is the cause. Israel has moved the goal post over time again and again makes the situation even worse.

So BDS will not resolve this. It doesn't matter what kind of economic hardship Israel has to suffer. That is utterly irrelevant to Netanyahus generation. Basically physical safety and well being trumps prosperity. Then again, BDS is only slowing Israel growth at best.

So the only logical solution eventually will be either Israel taking all territory and everyone forgetting about the situation ever happening (This is very unlikely) or the Arab states pushing Israel in to the sea.

Something along these lines.

[Beren]

Uhm Beren, what if somebody took the independance and free elections from your country on top of basically telling you that you have almost no say and no rights? Would you support a candidate that is clearly against the entity that did this to you or would you endorse his opponent?

Let me ignore your bullshit and answer your question regarding this particular case only: I'd endorse Biden because Trump's policies don't do Hongkongers any good and only hurt them. As a matter of fact I'd pray for Biden's victory each day until November 3.

[skinster]

If i don't support the Palestinian cause then it doesn't mean that i support everything that Israel does.

Yes it does.

The problem is that Israel is not really doing it and instead wants to mantaine the status quo.

How is expanding further into Palestinian territory - today's news - maintaining the status quo?

The best answer beyond rhetoric that I could figure out is that Israel is afraid.

What a dumb answer.

founding of Israel

You can learn all aboot that here: https://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/terrorism-israeli-state/

So BDS will not resolve this.

Maybe not in 2020 but there's a future out there - which currently includes much Jewish opposition to Israel - and the BDS movement has had success in the recent past, amongst other actions. And if you think BDS is impotent, why are Western states trying to criminalize this movement?

So the only logical solution eventually will be either Israel taking all territory and everyone forgetting about the situation ever happening (This is very unlikely) or the Arab states pushing Israel in to the sea.

Why do you keep repeating Zionist-propaganda-in-projection-form? It wasn't Palestinians/Arabs pushing anyone into the sea, but Zionists when they stole Palestine:

[Patrickov]

What China does to Hong Kong is what Israel does to Palastine. The death toll is low here only because the people don't wrap bombs around their waist.

Telling us to submit to such a corrupt and ruthless regime is like asking Palestinians to lie down and die in the hands of Israelite. Someone is holding double standards here. Hypocrite.

[Donna]

What's happening is more comparable to a one-state solution being proclaimed in Palestine, reversing the processes of European colonization.

[skinster]

What China does to Hong Kong is what Israel does to Palastine. The death toll is low here only because the people don't wrap bombs around their waist.

What an absolutely retarded statement to make. The situation of Palestine is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, they have one similarity (British colonialism) where in Palestine's case they oppose it and in your case you love your oppressors.

Telling us to submit to such a corrupt and ruthless regime is like asking Palestinians to lie down and die in the hands of Israelite. Someone is holding double standards here. Hypocrite.

You don't have to submit to it, the British govt has offered you citizenship. If you hate China so much, why not leave, hypocrite?

[Patrickov]

What an absolutely retarded statement to make. The situation of Palestine is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, they have one similarity (British colonialism) where in Palestine's case they oppose it and in your case you love your oppressors.

The British treated the two places very differently.

You don't have to submit to it, the British govt has offered you citizenship. If you hate China so much, why not leave, hypocrite?

I was born here and so was my mother and grandmother. Now some robbers is snatching my home (by making it like the tyrannic and corrupt China), and you are asking me to leave in favour of them, robber?

[Patrickov]

What's happening is more comparable to a one-state solution being proclaimed in Palestine, reversing the processes of European colonization.

And replacing it with Chinese Communist colonisation, which is far more corrupt and ruthless.

[skinster]

I was born here and so was my mother and grandmother. Now some robbers is snatching my home (by making it like the tyrannic and corrupt China), and you are asking me to leave in favour of them, robber?

Your home is China, if you hate yourself / China that much, you do have an option of leaving to your British home in Britain, where they'll grant you more rights than your parents/grandparents had under their rule in HK.

[Donna]

And replacing it with Chinese Communist colonisation, which is far more corrupt and ruthless.

Aren't most Hong Kongers of Chinese ancestry and speak Chinese though?

[Unthinking Majority]

Hong Kong doesn't "belong" to China. It belongs to the people of Hong Kong. If they want or don't want to have closer ties to China that should be the decision of the people of Hong Kong, not China's or Britain's or America's.

[Patrickov]

Aren't most Hong Kongers of Chinese ancestry and speak Chinese though?

Colonialism in the sense of the mindset behind their policies.

[Donna]

Colonialism in the sense of the mindset behind their policies.

What about the actual British colonialism that occurred in the region?

[Patrickov]

Your home is China, if you hate yourself / China that much, you do have an option of leaving to your British home in Britain, where they'll grant you more rights than your parents/grandparents had under their rule in HK.

And legitimise the robbers' robbery? Is that your reason to settle in Britain not Pakistan? But since you speak for tyrannic nations, and apparently against most if not all British politicians, you really should consider leaving Britain yourself.

I have my principles. If they deport me I have nothing to say, but as long as I can control it I'd rather stay and endure.

The above point of mine is going to moot with the following news:
China vows to stop UK granting Hongkongers residency

In other words, the base of this suggestion may be no more.

Oppressing someone while not allowing them to leave... next step concentration camps?