Haaretz: America vs. China? In This New Cold War, The Choice Is No Longer Obvious - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15110468
Code Rood wrote:I've been talking about the bold part for quite some time now. The international clique is almost done with the USA as the superpower. Pretty much anything of importance has been squeezed out of that place. The USA has served its purpose. The Stalinist wet dream, a Pan-Eurasian Kalergi Superstate, being ruled from Jerusalem, is what they really want.


You think countries are going to like China better than the US? LOL. Yeah Europe is going to align with a country that is trying to steal everything from them and infiltrate and control their government, citizens, and society. I'm sure Europeans will vote for that!
#15110478
Unthinking Majority wrote:You think countries are going to like China better than the US? LOL.

Code Rood didn't say that. He said that the International clique was ready to change bases, which is a totally different claim.

The International Clique has changed bases many times. When it left Austria for the USA in the early 20th Century, this allowed them to immediately destroy Europe.

So when they leave the USA, it might be time for caution there.
#15110482
QatzelOk wrote:Code Rood didn't say that. He said that the International clique was ready to change bases, which is a totally different claim.

The International Clique has changed bases many times. When it left Austria for the USA in the early 20th Century, this allowed them to immediately destroy Europe.

So when they leave the USA, it might be time for caution there.

This seems possible to me. A lot of the largest companies are international in nature. If the US tries to pressure them into ditching 3 billion consumers and the other side is willing to give them a lot more money, it seems clear what a lot of these corporations would choose.
#15110492
QatzelOk wrote:Code Rood didn't say that. He said that the International clique was ready to change bases, which is a totally different claim.

The International Clique has changed bases many times. When it left Austria for the USA in the early 20th Century, this allowed them to immediately destroy Europe.

So when they leave the USA, it might be time for caution there.


It's possible. A bit of a ways off from that, but possible. We're going to have another cold war but it will be different because China will have economic power that the USSR didn't.
#15110494
In the new cold war that is developing between China and America, there is no reason to come to attention obediently by the side of the latter nation. For years the media have been trying to scare us with terrifying scenarios of a global takeover by the frightening Chinese empire. Indeed, there are good reasons to be apprehensive about the domination of the Chinese political model – a centralist dictatorship that aims to maintain a tight grip on the lives of the country’s citizens. But that model could change, as political trends in China have in the past.


America's hegemonic status is on the wane because the Cold War is over, during which it was the leader of the free world. The new cold war between China and America inevitably leads to the resurgence of American power as many nations would need America's military support to fight Communist China. China appears to be accelerating its campaign to control the South China Sea and the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea. NATO has become obsolete in Europe but Asia still needs a new regional military alliance to fight the new cold war against Communist China and North Korea.
#15110591
Unthinking Majority wrote:It's possible. A bit of a ways off from that, but possible.

We're going to have another cold war but it will be different because China will have economic power that the USSR didn't.



The problem is, where does China'a economic power come from; and with the recent events and conflicts, will China be able to continue its development?

Also, will history repeat in that the two sides inadvertently move themselves into something more than just a cold war?

Note that I don't have an answer, although some would say I am guilty even for asking questions like this.
#15110702
Patrickov wrote:The problem is, where does China'a economic power come from; and with the recent events and conflicts, will China be able to continue its development?


If China continues to develop economically, the incomes of their population will keep increasing and domestic consumption will keep rising. Right now the west largely creates and consumes the goods China manufactures. Chinese companies will more and more create the products China also manufactures, and a Chinese population of 1.5 billion will increasingly consume them too. At that point, China will become less and less reliant on the West.

It wasn't too long ago that the US economy created, manufactured, and consumed the products they created too, and it made their economy rise beyond all other countries, and that was with a far smaller population than China.
#15110774
Unthinking Majority wrote:If China continues to develop economically, the incomes of their population will keep increasing and domestic consumption will keep rising. Right now the west largely creates and consumes the goods China manufactures. Chinese companies will more and more create the products China also manufactures, and a Chinese population of 1.5 billion will increasingly consume them too. At that point, China will become less and less reliant on the West.

It wasn't too long ago that the US economy created, manufactured, and consumed the products they created too, and it made their economy rise beyond all other countries, and that was with a far smaller population than China.


I don't know why people always resort to such vast exaggerations.

In 2019 China's export share of GDP was 17.4% and its import share 14.45%. Hence its "surplus export" was ~3% of GDP.
#15110803
Istanbuller wrote:China is irrelevant to Middle Eastern politics. It also has not that kind power to reach there.

Israeli diplomats would be very much idiot if they are comparing US support to any other country. Israel would be eaten alive without US support.


I highly doubt that, Israel does very well diplomatically. For example Saudia Arabia has interest in maintaining the status quo and having Israel allows them more leverage against Iran, both militarily and diplomatically. Not to mention that Israel posses a nuclear deterrent. But yes having the US as an Ally is irreplaceable.
#15110837
Rugoz wrote:I don't know why people always resort to such vast exaggerations.

In 2019 China's export share of GDP was 17.4% and its import share 14.45%. Hence its "surplus export" was ~3% of GDP.


They have 1.4 billion people. The population is poor but they still consume, although far less than the west. Also, imports don't necessarily mean the Chinese consume them. If the average person in China had the same incomes and therefore consumed as much as someone in the UK, China's imports would be insane, their domestic consumption would be insane.
#15110968
Wulfschilde wrote:This seems possible to me. A lot of the largest companies are international in nature. If the US tries to pressure them into ditching 3 billion consumers and the other side is willing to give them a lot more money, it seems clear what a lot of these corporations would choose.


Exactly.

You always have to remember that corporations (and banks) are psychopaths. They have no potential for empathy.

When the international banksters left Austria for New York City in the early 20th Century, they immediately destroyed Europe (with propaganda, wars, and ecomomic predation) because they wanted their new home - the USA - to have absolutely no competition. This way, their new base could assure them victories for their usurious practices to expand into.

Corporations abandoned the American worker with the same total lack of concern. Perhaps when the Federal Reserve moves to Shanghai, the USA will find itself destroyed by warfare to insure the total supremacy of the new home.

Perhaps COVID is an early part of this program to destroy China's competition (most Western countries) so that the banksters can move there and dominate using the Chinese army and economy.
#15110996
QatzelOk wrote:Exactly.

You always have to remember that corporations (and banks) are psychopaths. They have no potential for empathy.

When the international banksters left Austria for New York City in the early 20th Century, they immediately destroyed Europe (with propaganda, wars, and ecomomic predation) because they wanted their new home - the USA - to have absolutely no competition. This way, their new base could assure them victories for their usurious practices to expand into.

Yes, corporations only care about profit and making money for shareholders. That's their nature.

Corporations abandoned the American worker with the same total lack of concern. Perhaps when the Federal Reserve moves to Shanghai, the USA will find itself destroyed by warfare to insure the total supremacy of the new home.

Perhaps COVID is an early part of this program to destroy China's competition (most Western countries) so that the banksters can move there and dominate using the Chinese army and economy.

The thing is China is not a neoliberal country. It's economy and foreign investment is tightly controlled by the totalitarian regime. It's economy is not there to serve international business interests, it's there to serve the interests of China, to make China richer and more powerful vis-a-vis other countries. China would only allow foreign corporations to enter China if it would benefit the country.

Western countries are different in that corporate interests have a big influence on politicians and government & thus policy via lobbying & money. Therefore, much policy is geared to help corporations that care about profit but don't give a crap about America or Americans. The US system of government is at a big disadvantage vis-a-vis China in that regard. Corporate America and politicians are selling America down the river. Bernie and Trump are the only candidates I've seen who have made serious efforts to stop this.
#15110999
How does the US and West not get overtaken by China in terms of power? China has 1.4 billion people, that's a billion consumers, a billion potential soldiers. The US has 330 million people. China is a far bigger threat than the USSR was.

China's government has oriented the country to service the nation, to serve it's so-called national rejuvenation. Everything and everyone is there to make China stronger, and the totalitarian government has the power to orient any business or citizen to these ends. There is no rule of law or human rights.

China also doesn't follow any rules internationally, they will cheat wherever it will get them an advantage. Watching sports, like the Olympics, you'll know that those who don't follow the rules (ie: using steroids) have an advantage over those who do, and will usually win.
#15111067
Unthinking Majority wrote:
The thing is China is not a neoliberal country. It's economy and foreign investment is tightly controlled by the totalitarian regime. It's economy is not there to serve international business interests, it's there to serve the interests of China, to make China richer and more powerful vis-a-vis other countries.

To international money, all that matters is that the Chinese system "delivers" more profit to the top than our current system is doing in North America.

And when you say that "their economy is there to serve the Chinese," you are implying that "our economy is there to serve us" is not true. And maybe it isn't. But most people here don't believe that all their money gets skimmed off by useless parasites, and they believe this because of non-stop propaganda (PR).

What makes you think that the international money-hegemons won't figure out a way to fool the Chinese into giving up their surplus labor JUST LIKE THEY FOOLED US?

Yes, corporations only care about profit and making money for shareholders. That's their nature.

And they are constantly looking for ways to manipulate people to give up their surplus labor and sovereignty. What makes you think they won't expand their production of false consciousness to embrace their new "Chinese empire enforcers?"

International Money might already be encouraging Chinese politicians to sleep with young gals (what is the age of consent in China, and how badly would their reputations be ruined... is the only question that Money would ask here)
#15111089
QatzelOk wrote:To international money, all that matters is that the Chinese system "delivers" more profit to the top than our current system is doing in North America.

Right, but what i'm saying is international money has a lot of control over western governments, but thus far not much over China's government. In fact, China has been intimidating corporations that criticize China policies.

The way China's government could be corrupted by corporations is by bribes, which is exactly why our government has been corrupted by corps. But China is still far more oriented towards its own economic national interests than the US. China doesn't want US-based corporations to become stronger, they want to steal all the IP they can from them to make China's own state-controlled enterprises richer and more powerful, and they want US jobs & contracts shipped to China to make their economy more wealthy.

And when you say that "their economy is there to serve the Chinese," you are implying that "our economy is there to serve us" is not true. And maybe it isn't.

I'm not implying that, please don't put words in my mouth. I said specifically that our government does a lot to serve the interests of corporations over national and citizen interests, and corporations only care about profit.

What makes you think that the international money-hegemons won't figure out a way to fool the Chinese into giving up their surplus labor JUST LIKE THEY FOOLED US?

And they are constantly looking for ways to manipulate people to give up their surplus labor and sovereignty. What makes you think they won't expand their production of false consciousness to embrace their new "Chinese empire enforcers?"

You seem most concerned about worker exploitation. I'm much more concerned about the threat China's skyrocketing economy/power and bad intentions poses to western nations. I think you and everyone else need to get your priorities in order. The bourgeoisie as a threat paled in comparison to Nazi Germany. The difference between Nazis and the CCP is the CCP doesn't want to dominate the world using tanks.
#15111127
Unthinking Majority wrote:RYou seem most concerned about worker exploitation. I'm much more concerned about the threat China's skyrocketing economy/power and bad intentions poses to western nations.


For me, all that matters is the level of exploitation and inequality. If China can produce a union that is less unequal and less exploitive than the NATO-USA-IMF model, then the world should embrace it and hope that the "other system" is quickly swept under the rug.
#15111134
QatzelOk wrote:For me, all that matters is the level of exploitation and inequality. If China can produce a union that is less unequal and less exploitive than the NATO-USA-IMF model, then the world should embrace it and hope that the "other system" is quickly swept under the rug.


China has no human rights or rule of law. It's a corrupt society ruled by elites, and they rule with an iron fist. They're no saviour. And their economy is propped up by IP theft. Go to any Chinese market, you'll find tons of counterfeit goods. They steal & exploit other people's R&D.

Capitalism & liberalism aren't perfect by any means, but at least someone who doesn't want to be ordered around by their bosses at work can leave and start their own business and be their own boss. Or if you don't want to put that amount of work in, there's lots of jobs where everything is already set up for you & you can take a wage.
#15111192
Unthinking Majority wrote:China has no human rights or rule of law. It's a corrupt society ruled by elites, and they rule with an iron fist.

The USA has removed the human rights of millions of people in other countries all around the world. Its own citizens enjoy the highest incarceration rate on Earth. And the 300 million soldier-consumers of the USA have made life very minimal for billions through warfare and economic predation (capitalism).

So what you say about China above... can be met with an equal criticism of much-richer USA.

So whomever can bestow more human rights and economic equality TO THE COUNTRIES IT RELATES TO is my choice for number one superpower-of-the-year.
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