The Death of the British Labour Party - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15131164
Local Localist wrote:Jeremy Corbyn has been suspended from the party.


The irony is that Old Labour will bounce back after the Brexit and Covid clusterfuck. Perhaps Corbyn was the right man at the wrong time. As will be the case with Starmer. The question is does Starmer plan on being Blair mark II or does he plan doing what he said he'd do during his leadership campaign and that was to unite the party. Sacking Corbyn and Long-Bailey means we are becoming like America where both parties are identical as Blair was on the centre right. Great. Time for proportional representation.
#15131240
Pretty dumb to praise Islamic terror groups, which is what that man did, so I'm not really surprised that he ended up in hot water over that and the suspicion of antisemitism. While I do think the concept of "new antisemitism" is pretty much nonsense, Corbyn did say some suspicious things, which is probably why 54% of the population agree with the decision according to your own source.
#15131291
Local Localist wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/oct/29/uk-politics-live-ehrc-to-publish-report-into-labour-and-antisemitism

Jeremy Corbyn has been suspended from the party.

I'd pay my respects, but frankly, it died in 1994.


Corbyn could have been great if he did a lot of things better. The problem with Corbyn has always been not his core policies but his distraction to side issues that clearly go against what the people of UK want or expect to hear. Then again, the point of representative democracy is to vote for a package that Corbyn represents. And as a package those side issues weight him down like cement galoshes.
#15131333
Random American wrote:It's nice to see the left wing version of red baiting. Criticizing stupid statements out of a left-wing politician's mouth makes me as much a liberal as I am a communist for mocking a right wing politician.


I don't see how this is some kind of intelligent criticism:

Random American wrote:Pretty dumb to praise Islamic terror groups, which is what that man did


I'd need evidence of what he said for this, because it's a pretty lofty accusation, and also quite vague.

Random American wrote:Corbyn did say some suspicious things, which is probably why 54% of the population agree with the decision according to your own source.


Yes, Rupert Murdoch and other oligarchs controlling most of the media in Britain and Australia ran a consistent smear campaign against him, even after he stepped down as leader of the Labour Party, so I'm not at all surprised that the majority of the British public are still not particularly supportive of him.

Not that you are necessarily guilty of this, but it seems very convenient that Jeremy Corbyn, Rebecca Long-Bailey and any other democratic socialist that might present some kind of obstacle to Keir Starmer's neoliberal cabal can all just be dismissed as 'anti-semitic' for saying something vaguely anti-Zionist and ousted from their position.
#15131344
Local Localist wrote:I don't see how this is some kind of intelligent criticism:



I'd need evidence of what he said for this, because it's a pretty lofty accusation, and also quite vague.



Yes, Rupert Murdoch and other oligarchs controlling most of the media in Britain and Australia ran a consistent smear campaign against him, even after he stepped down as leader of the Labour Party, so I'm not at all surprised that the majority of the British public are still not particularly supportive of him.

Not that you are necessarily guilty of this, but it seems very convenient that Jeremy Corbyn, Rebecca Long-Bailey and any other democratic socialist that might present some kind of obstacle to Keir Starmer's neoliberal cabal can all just be dismissed as 'anti-semitic' for saying something vaguely anti-Zionist and ousted from their position.


I mentioned this before but it is not that simple. What i mean by that is there is certainly an element of anti-corbynism from outside and inside the party at play. Although that alone would not sink him. The main problem is that Corbyn likes and liked to dable in to side issues that at times are very not acceptable to the British electorate. Also there is some element of truth to the anti-semitism claims in general if you look at our local forum corbynists behaviours on the subject.

All this put together made Corbyn drown and loose election. I would argue that if he only stuck to his semi-socialist policies then he would have won because British electorate is more mature on the subject compared to America or Eastern Europe for example. Also it would be a lot harder for the anti-Corbynists to sink him if he just stuck to his semi-socialist policies and kept his mouth shut about things like supporting Hezbollah or the IRA etc
#15131346
JohnRawls wrote:All this put together made Corbyn drown and loose election. I would argue that if he only stuck to his semi-socialist policies then he would have won because British electorate is more mature on the subject compared to America or Eastern Europe for example. Also it would be a lot harder for the anti-Corbynists to sink him if he just stuck to his semi-socialist policies and kept his mouth shut about things like supporting Hezbollah or the IRA etc


My issue is that these are all just vague accusations. He did stick to 'semi-socialist policies', didn't he? The Labour Manifesto didn't pledge to nationalise banks, or to abolish private healthcare, or to do other things one would assume a socialist manifesto would do. As a matter of fact, I would contend that the main issue that sunk the Labour Party in 2019, at least judging by the way Boris Johnson hammered it home in the debate, was that the Labour Party wanted a second referendum on Brexit, which was a policy Corbyn adopted specifically to appease Starmer's faction. Again, about Corbyn not keeping his mouth shut while Labour leader, I've yet to see any evidence that he vocalised support for the IRA while he was in that position, or that he ever vocalised support for Hezbollah.
#15131351
Use of the term anti Semitism for prejudice against Jews is vile, dishonest and racist. Racist Jewish supremacists have deliberately chosen to use the term, because use of the term inevitably has the psychological effect of exaggerating the issues of those who identify as Jews and minimising the issues of other Semites. Use of the term inevitably diminishes the value of other Semitic life, notably Arabs.

Now sure I accept that some people are genuinely too stupid to see this, but some use the term deliberately because of its racist effect and many more go along with its use out of cowardice. We see this racism in the bombs against Iraq inscribed with "This is for 9/11", We saw it in Donald Trump's missile attack against Syria. The hideous racist callous disregard for Arab and Phonetician life. For Arab Semite and Phoenician Semite life. Can you imagine the uproar if Donald Trump had risked Jewish life by launching a missile attack against Israel.
#15131365
Local Localist wrote:My issue is that these are all just vague accusations. He did stick to 'semi-socialist policies', didn't he? The Labour Manifesto didn't pledge to nationalise banks, or to abolish private healthcare, or to do other things one would assume a socialist manifesto would do. As a matter of fact, I would contend that the main issue that sunk the Labour Party in 2019, at least judging by the way Boris Johnson hammered it home in the debate, was that the Labour Party wanted a second referendum on Brexit, which was a policy Corbyn adopted specifically to appease Starmer's faction. Again, about Corbyn not keeping his mouth shut while Labour leader, I've yet to see any evidence that he vocalised support for the IRA while he was in that position, or that he ever vocalised support for Hezbollah.


They are not vague accusations. There are videos and recording of Corbyn supporting Hezbollah, IRA etc. And it is not just two of those instances and in that lies the problem. He could be always harassed by that. I doubt majority of the UK public supports HEzbollah and majority of the UK public probably outright dislikes the IRA for example.

As for anti-semitism. Once again, this is linked to Corbyns position of him supporting the Palestinian cause and disliking Israel in general. While he himself would never cross the line but it doesn't mean that his followers didn't and that could always be blamed on him. As I said, this is not exactly a baseless accusation if you noticed the behavior of people on this forum. If you really wanted to then you could find violations in their sayings or actions that could fall under anti-semitism. Even worse, if the higher leadership is not serious about tackling it. The reason that Starmer is so keen on apologising and taking responsibility etc is because he needs to get rid of this public perception not to fall in to same pitfalls as Corbyn.
#15131368
Local Localist wrote:I'd need evidence of what he said for this, because it's a pretty lofty accusation, and also quite vague.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ah-friends

He did call Hamas and Hezbollah "friends," and while did did walk back the statement as that links shows, it is easy to see why this wouldn't resonate with the public. No, I don't think Corbyn supports Islamic terrorism but that's beside the point. Don't show sympathy for a group just because they're anti-west.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170709225 ... mists.html
Also, he does seem to have pretty questionable ties. I get that this is a Tory paper, but I doubt this is all made up. It's not like it's Fox News.

There was a book that supposedly quoted him making even dumber statements, but I don't trust that source as it promoted the "new antisemitism" crap so I'm not going list it here or promote it's claims. As for questionable actors jumping in on this, unfortunately that can happen to a lot of people in the world of politics.

In my view though, you guys should focus more on economic policies instead of jumping to support the next thing that just happens to oppose the west. Opposition to neoliberalism is appealing, but unsavory comments and actors are not.
#15131389
The current government under Keir Starmer is friends, in fact very friendly, with racist Zionists, so spare that crap about Corbyn not condemning guerilla organisations defending their land from the racist Zionist land-grabbing entity.

The cries of racism - antisemitism - directed at Corbyn are all from Zionists. Zionists are racists, so what they think or say can fuck off.

Zionist lobbies have a firm grip on British politics, just as they do in the U.S. When are people going to start talking about the power behind Zionism and its meddling in governments all over the world? Never, if the current debates on PoFo are any indication. People just straight up refuse to talk about this issue, it's the racist elephant in the room and I can't help but laugh at how people voluntarily remain silent on this issue.

Anyway, I thought this was good news since it's been clear for some time that there's no space for socialists in The "Labour" Party. Corbyn should start his own party, he already has a millions-strong movement behind him. Not sure why he didn't do that months ago, to be honest.

And what Boycey said is correct about how the U.K. is just like the U.S. now with two main rightwing parties.

Also, lol:
Labour so swamped by member resignations, Evans pleads for help dealing with them
#15131396
skinster wrote:The current government under Keir Starmer is friends, in fact very friendly, with racist Zionists, so spare that crap about Corbyn not condemning guerilla organisations defending their land from the racist Zionist land-grabbing entity.

The cries of racism - antisemitism - directed at Corbyn are all from Zionists. Zionists are racists, so what they think or say can fuck off.

Zionist lobbies have a firm grip on British politics, just as they do in the U.S. When are people going to start talking about the power behind Zionism and its meddling in governments all over the world? Never, if the current debates on PoFo are any indication. People just straight up refuse to talk about this issue, it's the racist elephant in the room and I can't help but laugh at how people voluntarily remain silent on this issue.

Anyway, I thought this was good news since it's been clear for some time that there's no space for socialists in The "Labour" Party. Corbyn should start his own party, he already has a millions-strong movement behind him. Not sure why he didn't do that months ago, to be honest.

And what Boycey said is correct about how the U.K. is just like the U.S. now with two main rightwing parties.

Also, lol:
Labour so swamped by member resignations, Evans pleads for help dealing with them


It's funny how easily swapping "Zionist" with "Jew" exposes what your actual beliefs are here.
#15131401
Former British Ambassador Craig Murray wrote:Time to Stand Up and Be Counted
Today, nothing is more important than to say that we will not be silent on the dreadful oppression of the Palestinian people; the daily beatings, killings, humiliations, demolitions, expropriations and destruction of groves that are the concomitant of Israeli illegal occupation.

We will never be browbeaten into silence on the slow genocide of the Palestinian people.

Nobody with any grasp on the location of their right mind believes Jeremy Corbyn to be an anti-Semite. Nobody with any grasp on their right mind believes the Labour Party is now anything but the substitutes’ bench for the Neoconservative team. Under Keir Starmer, the Labour Party has failed to oppose the granting of legal powers to the security services to kill, torture, entrap, forge and fake with impunity. It has failed to oppose the limitation of prosecution of British soldiers for war crimes. The Labour Party now seeks to erase all trace that it might once have been a party that offered an alternative to the right wing security state.

As Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer pressurised Swedish prosecutors who wished to drop the case against Julian Assange, to persist in order that he might be rendered to the USA. He further persuaded them not to interview Julian here, which is standard practice when he was never charged but only wanted for questioning, and which would have reduced Julian’s ordeal by four years.

Starmer received £50,000 in personal donations from lobbyist Sir Trevor Chinn to fund his leadership bid.

It is perfectly plain that Starmer’s aim in suspending Corbyn is to drive the mass membership that Corbyn attracted out of the Labour Party, and make it a reliable arm of the right wing security state. He wants the Labour Party to be financially dependent not on its members, who have annoying principles, but on donors like Chinn.

The media and political elite have attained their aim; there is no longer any point in voting in Westminster elections. A right wing government supporting the neo-con status quo and the ever tightening security state is now firmly guaranteed and cannot be influenced by a Westminster election.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... ozwzXJ-nQw




wat0n wrote:It's funny how easily swapping "Zionist" with "Jew" exposes what your actual beliefs are here.


Only antisemites conflate the two.

Anything to say about Zionist meddling in British politics since you quoted my entire post?
Last edited by skinster on 30 Oct 2020 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
#15131402
wat0n wrote:It's funny how easily swapping "Zionist" with "Jew" exposes what your actual beliefs are here.

This could just be that they’re both nouns and so easily switched.
Last edited by Wellsy on 30 Oct 2020 16:55, edited 1 time in total.
#15131424
skinster wrote:Only antisemites conflate the two.

Anything to say about Zionist meddling in British politics since you quoted my entire post?


Conspiracy theories.

Wellsy wrote:This could just be that they’re both nouns and so easily switched.


Not really. It doesn't work well with giraffes

:)
#15131432
wat0n wrote:Conspiracy theories.


No, they're not. Not that you're interested in the truth, but for those who are, they can learn about that Zionist meddling from the following documentaries that include Zionists lobby group members themselves talking about the meddling they get up to. In the U.K. it was revealed last year from an undercover documentary that there was a bounty on Corbyn and any pro-Palestinian politician's head to the tune of a million dollars, paid for by Israeli lobbies.

In the U.K.




In the U.S.




#15131438
skinster wrote:No, they're not. Not that you're interested in the truth, but for those who are, they can learn about that Zionist meddling from the following documentaries that include Zionists lobby group members themselves talking about the meddling they get up to. In the U.K. it was revealed last year from an undercover documentary that there was a bounty on Corbyn and any pro-Palestinian politician's head to the tune of a million dollars, paid for by Israeli lobbies.

In the U.K.




In the U.S.






No, those are conspiracy theories. I don't find it surprising though, it's a typical trait of antisemites ever since The Protocols was published.

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