The Death of the British Labour Party - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15131442
wat0n wrote:No, those are conspiracy theories.


You haven't watched any of them and are dismissing them as conspiracies. What an interesting thinker you are. :lol:

Some more not-meddling in American foreign policy. Here's that time Nethanyahu went crying to congress about Obama's nuclear deal with Iran.
#15131445
skinster wrote:You haven't watched any of them and are dismissing them as conspiracies. What an interesting thinker you are. :lol:

Some more not-meddling in American foreign policy. Here's that time Nethanyahu went crying to congress about Obama's nuclear deal with Iran.


The conspiracy theories are not new at all, in fact, they are over a century old :lol:
#15131452
An Israeli lobby worker in Britain filmed undercover talking about "taking down" British politicians for defending Palestinian human rights. Apparently it's a conspiracy when it comes from the racist horses mouths and is on film, according to wat0n.


I mean it's so much of a conspiracy that this thread is just a figment of all our imagination and the exact same thing didn't happen to Jeremy Corbyn or anything like that.

Zionists, you dig your own grave with your constant lies. One good thing that's come out of all of this is supporters of Labour who had no idea about Israel's meddling have awoken to what that racist settler-colony is really all about. It's pretty slow moving since it's been 70 years and ongoing oppression of Palestinians, but better late than never, I suppose.
Last edited by skinster on 30 Oct 2020 17:58, edited 1 time in total.
#15131453
wat0n wrote:No, those are conspiracy theories. I don't find it surprising though, it's a typical trait of antisemites ever since The Protocols was published.

Not really, it is no secret that Israel lobbies my government and has significantly influenced our foreign policy. They have more influence than I do over my government and I think Congress even tried to ban BDS actions.
#15131457
Random American wrote:Not really, it is no secret that Israel lobbies my government and has significantly influenced our foreign policy. They have more influence than I do over my government and I think Congress even tried to ban BDS.


Exactly. And in France because of the work of Israeli lobbies, it's now illegal to criticize Israel and support the BDS movement. The country that goes on and on about free speech. :lol:
#15131459
Random American wrote:Not really, it is no secret that Israel lobbies my government and has significantly influenced our foreign policy. They have more influence than I do over my government and I think Congress even tried to ban BDS actions.


There are all sorts of lobbies in the US, including over foreign policy. That doesn't mean US foreign policy is controlled by them :roll:
#15131461
wat0n wrote:No, of claiming it exerts control over the US or other Western countries.

Yeah, it's completely absurd to suggest that a lobby group set up with the explicit aim of influencing US policy towards Israel has any influence on US policy towards Israel.
#15131463
Heisenberg wrote:Yeah, it's completely absurd to suggest that a lobby group set up with the explicit aim of influencing US policy towards Israel has any influence on US policy towards Israel.


See my post above. This is as absurd as claiming AFL-CIO controls US labor policies simply because it has an explicit aim of influencing labor policies.
#15131464
skinster wrote:Exactly. And in France because of the work of Israeli lobbies, it's now illegal to criticize Israel and support the BDS movement. The country that goes on and on about free speech. :lol:

That's actually why I oppose hate speech laws and adopt a more absolutist view of free speech from government action. On the plus side, they can only ban action here due to the current interpretation of the 1st Amendment, not speech, though France wasn't so lucky, where several Palestinian activists were arrested for criticizing Israeli foreign policy. Some places tried to do that here by abusing anti-bullying laws, but had constitutional issues. Our constitution is outdated, but the First Amendment is very good in that regard by making it hard to ban certain types of political speech.
#15131465
^ The weirdest thing about it all is that it nearly always backfires. Solidarity for Palestinians and actions in that regard aren't going to stop just because the government attempts to criminalize it. Activists in France are accepting that getting arrested will be part of their job now.

wat0n wrote:There are all sorts of lobbies in the US, including over foreign policy. That doesn't mean US foreign policy is controlled by them :roll:


According to Stephen Walt & John Mearsheimer, that's exactly what AIPAC does.
https://www.academia.edu/9031239/The_Is ... ephen_Walt

Not that I expect you to read anything that goes against your racist Zionism, but that PDF on their book on AIPAC is an interesting read on Israel's very real meddling in American politics.
#15131468
skinster wrote:According to Stephen Walt & John Mearsheimer, that's exactly what AIPAC does.
https://www.academia.edu/9031239/The_Is ... ephen_Walt

Not that I expect you to read anything that goes against your racist Zionism, but that PDF on their book on AIPAC is an interesting read on Israel's very real meddling in American politics.


I've already read their paper. I recall it (for instance) explicitly misquoted their sources, such as Benny Morris' work.
#15131473
@skinster

I don't think that Starmer actually cares at all about Israel and Palestein. Starmer apologising for anti-semitism to get rid of the image that Corbyn created is not the same as being friends with Israel or Palestein.

There is a high chance Starmer doesn't want to even come close to the whole Israel vs Palestein argument because it would remind people of Labour problems.
#15131476
wat0n wrote:See my post above. This is as absurd as claiming AFL-CIO controls US labor policies simply because it has an explicit aim of influencing labor policies.

Believe it or not, it is possible for different lobbying groups to have different degrees of power and influence! Organised labour in the US has been in decline for decades.

To turn one of your own tricks back on you, replace "Israel lobby" with "Pharmaceutical lobby" or "NRA lobby", and I doubt you'd deny that these groups have enormous power to influence the US government.

But in the case of AIPAC, which has helped secure uncritical bipartisan support of Israel, and a guaranteed $3bn a year in military aid, and has been acknowledged by countless members of Congress as a major political force, it's suddenly a "conspiracy theory" to say they have influence over US foreign policy? Come off it.
#15131478
JohnRawls wrote:There is a high chance Starmer doesn't want to even come close to the whole Israel vs Palestein argument because it would remind people of Labour problems.


They should focus more on opposition to neoliberalism and better healthcare. That's probably going to be more appealing to the voters, but that's just my opinion, as a lot of the anti-western actors have their own vices and shouldn't really be praised either.
#15131480
Random American wrote:They should focus more on opposition to neoliberalism and better healthcare.

It'll be hard for Starmer to oppose neoliberalism given that neoliberalism courses through his veins. ;)
#15131482
Heisenberg wrote:Believe it or not, it is possible for different lobbying groups to have different degrees of power and influence! Organised labour in the US has been in decline for decades.

To turn one of your own tricks back on you, replace "Israel lobby" with "Pharmaceutical lobby" or "NRA lobby", and I doubt you'd deny that these groups have enormous power to influence the US government.

But in the case of AIPAC, which has helped secure uncritical bipartisan support of Israel, and a guaranteed $3bn a year in military aid, and has been acknowledged by countless members of Congress as a major political force, it's suddenly a "conspiracy theory" to say they have influence over US foreign policy? Come off it.


It is to claim they have a "firm grip" over US foreign policy, which is what skinster claimed. No, it does not - whatever support Israel gets from the US owes to US interests primarily, which is shown by the fact that Israel very, very rarely votes against the US in pretty much any topic in the UN.

@JohnRawls I agree, I'm fairly sure he doesn't want to get into that sort of argument again.

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