[Verv]

Is Biden or Trump black, or of a minority? If not, then your argument, or attempt at one, is irrelevant. Pathetic Verv. You're stooping low to support your idol, Trump.

My idol? And later you go on to call me a Trump cultist? You lean very heavily on these petty insults.

Of course, Biden & Trump are not minorities, but this does not change the fact that the bulk of American liberals believe that the justice system is fundamentally corrupt. Why would you put faith in a system that is incapable with being just to minorities with being completely fair and free of bias when dealing with big issues like this?

Or is the US system magically only corrupt when you want it to be?

Sounds like you're just being a troll.

I am not a "Democrat", as I am not even an American voter. I do, however, dislike Trump and think he was very bad for the USA.

I forget -- are you a Canadian or some other commonwealth guy? Are you roughly the equivalent of a progressive Democrat?

[Godstud]

My idol? And later you go on to call me a Trump cultist? You lean very heavily on these petty insults.

I do appreciate that you find being called a Trump supporter offensive, so my apologies if your intent is not to come off as a blind Trump cultist. It's just how you are talking at this time, that makes it appear like it.

Or is the US system magically only corrupt when you want it to be?

Flaws and all, it's better that the justice system attempts to operate in an attempt to serve justice, rather than not operate atall. I would not be confident in the results of said indictments, but it would at least shine a light on the unsavoury dealings within the government, or around it. Would I be confident that the parties would receive justice? No... not really.

I forget -- are you a Canadian or some other commonwealth guy? Are you roughly the equivalent of a progressive Democrat?

I am a Liberal(classic) Centrist.

[Verv]

I do appreciate that you find being called a Trump supporter offensive, so my apologies if your intent is not to come off as a blind Trump cultist. It's just how you are talking at this time, that makes it appear like it.

It is not an insult to be a Trump supporter. It is insulting, to any person, to say that they worship some person like an idol or that they are a cultist.

Playing it off like you just have some objective view of the situation, in which we are all behaving like cultists for the crime of denying the Russia hoax narrative and criticizing Biden is really poor form, Godstud.

I think it could be argued that it makes you look more radical & trollish than anyone else in the thread.

Flaws and all, it's better that the justice system attempts to operate in an attempt to serve justice, rather than not operate atall. I would not be confident in the results of said indictments, but it would at least shine a light on the unsavoury dealings within the government, or around it. Would I be confident that the parties would receive justice? No... not really.

OK, so you must be excited for the upcoming hearings that will deal with election fraud.

We both wait with bated breath.

Unless, of course, you believe that in a country like the US, the election process is always such a smooth, uncorrupt affair.

I am a Liberal(classic) Centrist.

I am also a centrist!

We have a lot more in common as expats & centrists than you think.

[QatzelOk]

I hope Centrists get vaccined first.

You guys deserve it. You worked so hard to be average.

[Rugoz]

It is not an insult to be a Trump supporter. It is insulting, to any person, to say that they worship some person like an idol or that they are a cultist.

It is very much an insult. There are cynics and opportunists that support him, but the real supporters are just dumb beyond belief.

[annatar1914]

It is very much an insult. There are cynics and opportunists that support him, but the real supporters are just dumb beyond belief.

Liberals go beyond thinking their political foes are demonic; they also deny them moral agency (along with most other people except for their noble selves) and perceive them as being like misguided children, much as they think of their own followers as children-to be led, and guided.

How dare anyone think or act otherwise!

Many people had very rational self interests involved in voting for President Trump in 2016, expectations they wished fulfilled. Now, it's debatable at least if they still had that rational and self-interested expectation in 2020, but they still made a debatable yet at least superficially rational claim to vote for Trump and against Biden, who they see as being against those interests.

But that actually reveals a bit more about the ''Liberal'' mind than the ''Conservative'' one, because the fear the President Trump would or could actually at least partly deliver on the expectations and self-interests of his voters. That would be very terrible indeed, to some people. Maybe even enough terror in their hearts to steal an election, to prevent such a tragic outcome?

[Rugoz]

Liberals go beyond thinking their political foes are demonic; they also deny them moral agency (along with most other people except for their noble selves) and perceive them as being like misguided children, much as they think of their own followers as children-to be led, and guided.

Trump is an obvious con man, narcissist and pathological liar, yet so many Americans believe his bullshit. From that I unfortunately have to conclude that they are misguided adults, aka idiots.

Many people had very rational self interests involved in voting for President Trump in 2016

No doubt many people had. I called them cynics and opportunists in my previous post. Maybe those are not the correct terms.

[Godstud]

OK, so you must be excited for the upcoming hearings that will deal with election fraud.

If even one of them isn't based on the lies of Trump, I'd be surprised. I don't believe there was fraud, because in March Trump was calling the elections fraudulent if he wasn't winning. I'd think someone like you would see that as the ramblings of an idiot.

No evidence = No fraud. Trump saying so, and having his idiot Guiliana try to invent fraud, isn't kosher, in my books. The fraud that has been found is on such a small scale as to be insignificant.

Trumps AG, Barr, has even come out to say there was no evidence of fraud, in the election. That's pretty damning.

[B0ycey]

@Godstud

Just want to say I have come late to this thread and that you have done a fantastic job at exposing ignorance on here. I can't believe we have users who think Mueller came up with nothing because there was no connection to Trump specifically...yet. But what I find even more remarkable is that you present them the evidence and they still seem oblivious to it. People might not like the term Cultist but if you are going to ignore what is being presented to you or even worse say they can't be bothered to read it or what not, then to a casual viewer they just come across as gullible. What next? The Earth is flat because we won't look at those Nasa photos?

[QatzelOk]

Liberals go beyond thinking their political foes are demonic; they also deny them moral agency (along with most other people except for their noble selves) and perceive them as being like misguided children, much as they think of their own followers as children-to be led, and guided.

I agree with you on this.

But my definition of "Liberal" is "someone who believes in progressive capitalism."

Corporations are the new religions of the 20th Century, with mass media as their prayer.

They were able to depict communism, socialism, and third world independence as "the devil" by using their commercial control of media and socialization through suburban media-exposure.

[annatar1914]

@Rugoz , you're still not understanding. I think that it's because you don't want to understand;

Trump is an obvious con man, narcissist and pathological liar, yet so many Americans believe his bullshit. From that I unfortunately have to conclude that they are misguided adults, aka idiots.

Nothing in what he promised his voters in 2016 was too unreasonable to expect, from their perspective, and it's absolutely certain that in 2020 and afterwards, they will get nothing of what they want from Biden/Harris and a Liberal Democratic administration. You are very mistaken about them, if not him. Nobody else is stepping up for them, fighting for them, if even he is not.

No doubt many people had. I called them cynics and opportunists in my previous post. Maybe those are not the correct terms.

They aren't the correct terms. Many people who have voted for President Trump have ideals, ideals that reflect their worldview. They may not be your ideals and worldview, but they aren't ''stupid'' or ''evil'' for having the nerve to vote for Donald Trump. Desperate maybe, but not stupid or evil, because as I said before, it's certain that nobody else is representing them and fighting for them.

Liberals want these kinds of people to no longer exist, to disappear, and these people know it. They know the goal is (if they can't be persuaded and get ''woke'', to follow Liberal ideology) to replace them with people who Liberals think will follow them.

[annatar1914]

I agree with you on this.

But my definition of "Liberal" is "someone who believes in progressive capitalism."

Corporations are the new religions of the 20th Century, with mass media as their prayer.

They were able to depict communism, socialism, and third world independence as "the devil" by using their commercial control of media and socialization through suburban media-exposure.

@QatzelOk

The white Liberal ideal is to be like and regarded by non-whites as 'Atticus Finch' in ''To Kill a Mockingbird'';

Of course, most people white or non-white don't understand this diabolical and insane amalgam of masochism and arrogant satanic pride, this remnant of Yankee Calvinism, but it's definitely there...

[Rugoz]

Nothing in what he promised his voters in 2016 was too unreasonable to expect, from their perspective, and it's absolutely certain that in 2020 and afterwards, they will get nothing of what they want from Biden/Harris and a Liberal Democratic administration. You are very mistaken about them, if not him. Nobody else is stepping up for them, fighting for them, if even he is not.

He promised to eliminate all US debt within two terms which is impossible short of outright default (needless to say he did the opposite, hugely increasing debt even before corona). He promised Mexico would pay for the wall. Already two utterly unreasonable things to expect.

He promised to reduce the trade deficit, but it's much larger now than in 2016, because he doesn't have a fucking clue about international macro and doesn't give a damn either way. He promised to increase taxes for the wealthy, he did the opposite. He promised the bring back manufacturing jobs, but employment in manufacturing increased at the same pace as under Obama (before collapsing due to covid).

But fair enough, if voters just expected lower taxes, less regulation, a more conservative SCOTUS and a tougher stance on China, those expectations were justified.

I wasn't referring to Trump's election promises though, but to Trump's alternate reality bullshit many Americans believe in. That's the really shocking and dangerous part.

They aren't the correct terms. Many people who have voted for President Trump have ideals, ideals that reflect their worldview. They may not be your ideals and worldview, but they aren't ''stupid'' or ''evil'' for having the nerve to vote for Donald Trump. Desperate maybe, but not stupid or evil, because as I said before, it's certain that nobody else is representing them and fighting for them.

Trump doesn't have ideals and is only fighting for himself. If voters have ideals and they think Trump is a useful tool to implement them, that makes them opportunists.

[annatar1914]

@Rugoz ;

He promised to eliminate all US debt within two terms which is impossible short of outright default (needless to say he did the opposite, hugely increasing debt even before corona). He promised Mexico would pay for the wall. Already two utterly unreasonable things to expect.

While it is not really debatable that he did not follow through on these promises, within the context of the worldviews of the people who generally voted for him, it really isn't unreasonable to fulfill those promises. If America could carry out the Manhattan Project, it can carry out these things.

He promised to reduce the trade deficit, but it's much larger now than in 2016, because he doesn't have a fucking clue about international macro and doesn't give a damn either way.

I suspect that that is also debatable, but as it's a problem within Capitalism, a guy like @blackjack21 would probably disagree with you on this, as Capitalists.

He promised to increase taxes for the wealthy, he did the opposite. He promised the bring back manufacturing jobs, but employment in manufacturing increased at the same pace as under Obama (before collapsing due to covid).

But fair enough, if voters just expected lower taxes, less regulation, a more conservative SCOTUS and a tougher stance on China, those expectations were justified.

Trump has two voter blocs; ''Conservatives'', and Nationalist/Populists. The N-P bloc of his voters is usually an independent working class voter, moderate in that they are often social conservatives and economic liberals. Trump alienated them after 2016. His Conservative base, composed of people like @Hindsite, he did very well by, as they are right wing Libertarian types who are often ''Christian'' Zionists.

I wasn't referring to Trump's election promises though, but to Trump's alternate reality bullshit many Americans believe in. That's the really shocking and dangerous part.

Please don't fool yourself. President Trump still has a very good chance of winning re-election using the mechanisms of the US Constitution. If he was cheated out of re-election (aside from the fact of losing more than a few of his original voters who made him win in 2016), he has a definite possibility of winning anyway. The election isn't over, not quite.

I knew he would fight and not concede. Why should he quit yet? Biden was counseled by Hillary Clinton to not ''concede under any circumstances'' if the shoe had been on the other foot;

Trump doesn't have ideals and is only fighting for himself. If voters have ideals and they think Trump is a useful tool to implement them, that makes them opportunists.

It's idealism and not so much opportunism when one is fighting for a way of life. Trump won't destroy that, it is reasoned, while the Liberals definitely are; it's what they do, like Termites on an old wooden house. But more than a few got burned after supporting Trump in 2016.

[Godstud]

But my definition of "Liberal" is "someone who believes in progressive capitalism."

Your definition is something you made up, is imaginary, and not correct. Good to know.

Here's the actual definition of Liberal:
a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.

Stick with reality.

[QatzelOk]

YHere's the actual definition of Liberal:
a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.

my definition of "Liberal" is "someone who believes in progressive capitalism."

Wow. You are unable to see that these are the same definition. Sad.

The white Liberal ideal is to be like and regarded by non-whites as 'Atticus Finch' in ''To Kill a Mockingbird'

At one point, that was what the elite were asking schmoes to act like.

But they have been busy since then, and today there are hundreds of opinions and self-building projects that young people are supposed to pursue if they want to be "socially acceptable" to media viewers.

When I was a teenager, we used to call a lot of things "weird." (80s slang). This meant that we were seeing something or someone that "wasn't on TV or in movies."

The concept still exists, but it's not called "weird" anymore. But people do still get their social norms and ideals from commercial sources that are very centralized and strategic as means of controlling people's minds.

[Godstud]

Wow. You are unable to see that these are the same definition. Sad.

Wow. You pretend they're the same. Really sad, and stupid.

[Verv]

It is very much an insult. There are cynics and opportunists that support him, but the real supporters are just dumb beyond belief.

You cannot say that anyone is dumb unless you have a very good idea of what thier whole framework is. Even then, it is inappropriate to call them dumb as a person -- it is only appropriate to say that they have chosen to be dumb... Of course, this is shorthanded as 'they're dumb,' but still, it pays to drag it out a little... if not for their benefit, but for the benefit of your own soul.

... And, most importantly, to follow Rule 2 on Politics Forum dot Org.

(If we are dealing with a person who is literally mentally incapable of being intelligent, it is always completely inappropriate to call them dumb. Calling someone fat may be rude, but it can also be done to hope to shame someone to change, and thus can be seen as having some utility... To call someone incapable of change a bad name for their condition is merciless, cruel, and evil -- it is to simply revel in that person's condition, and make light of it.)

[Verv]

I consider myself a centrist because I generally support monarchical rule but I am open to well structured Republics that operate within the framework of a constitution that has been traditionally upheld.

I think most people, in history, are the same.

To be conservative is to not believe in representative government and only believe that tradition should govern.

To be liberal is to only believe only in democratic government and rule by the will of the people.

But now, because we live in a time in the West very much uncharacteristic of how it typically has been, it seems very conservative & regressive to be a centrist.

Yes, I am aware that this is a little ridiculous to say to anyone. It feels like hijacking what "centrist" means in any normal context.

But the goal here is to make people smile & think in new ways -- not to reinforce norms that have been failing us for the last several decades.

[annatar1914]

@QatzelOk ; you said in response to my comment about ''Atticus Finch'' White Liberal idealism;

At one point, that was what the elite were asking schmoes to act like.

But they have been busy since then, and today there are hundreds of opinions and self-building projects that young people are supposed to pursue if they want to be "socially acceptable" to media viewers.

But the same basic concept is the same; the same engine of anxious self-righteous feeling drives them.

When I was a teenager, we used to call a lot of things "weird." (80s slang). This meant that we were seeing something or someone that "wasn't on TV or in movies."

I grew up around that time, and I look back and it's obvious that while so much of our lives were still tied to the Real, not being so connected to Modernity as a Concept, there was so much that came from TV and the Radio that informed our lives. McLuhan was right; the ''medium IS the message'' in so many ways.

The concept still exists, but it's not called "weird" anymore. But people do still get their social norms and ideals from commercial sources that are very centralized and strategic as means of controlling people's minds.

That's why in the Pre-Modern world, acting and music and theater were frowned upon as things in themselves, Representation was never mistaken for Reality although that's what our forefathers were justifiably afraid that it would be to us.