[noemon]

Russian influence on securing Swiss neutrality was never in doubt, but Modern Switzerland as a constitutional state ows much more to French and US influence. It's fair to say that represents a consensus among Swiss historians. I never even heard of the guy despite reading quite a bit of Swiss history.

Liberal France and the US were not present in the Congress of Vienna, Russia and Kapodistrias was. The rest of the powers just wanted to dominate Switzerland like Napoleon had done earlier. It was because of Russia and Kapodistrias that Switzerland is what it is today. That is actually the historical consensus among historians rather than the wishful ignorance of anti-Russian laymen.

So yes, I attribute this article mostly the diplomatic friendliness.

Why would Switzerland exhibit diplomatic friendliness for Russia in a Swiss-Greek Article of the Federation?

You have no credibility and as you admit yourself no knowledge of any of this either. Your ignorance is not 'diplomatic friendliness' mate, your denial is a disservice to the memories of those who actually did something so that you can enjoy the privileges you currently enjoy.

If you want to call these historical facts as lies, then you will have to come up with something better than that.

Kapodístrias arrived in Switzerland at a moment when the country was deeply divided and on the brink of civil war. Driven by extraordinary determination and strength of conviction, Kapodístrias managed, after ten months of dialogue and negotiation, to persuade the cantons to come together to lay the foundations for the creation of today's Swiss Confederation. Kapodístrias wrote constitutional drafts, resolutions, decisions and letters. Thanks to his unremitting efforts and persistence, Kapodístrias was also said to be "undeniably the most [...] decisive influence" among the envoys of the allied powers. After his first mission to Switzerland, each canton drafted a new constitution, the Diet (assembly of cantonal delegates) ratified the Federal Constitution, civil order was restored and Switzerland was recognised by the Allies.

An advocate of Swiss interests at the Congress of Vienna and the 1815 Treaty of Paris

During the Congress of Vienna (September 1814 – June 1815) attended by the diplomatic representatives of the victors of the Napoleonic Wars – the European great powers – Kapodístrias made the acquaintance of the Geneva statesman Charles Pictet Rochemont, who had a mandate to represent the Republic of Geneva. The two men became friends. With the Geneva representative François d’Ivernois, they worked together to rally Geneva to join the Swiss Confederation as a canton, consolidate its territory and thus establish a secure military border for the canton and the Confederation. Following the 1815 congress, Geneva joined the Confederation, giving the country its final borders which have remained unchanged to this day. The Vaud region is also indebted to Kapodístrias, who successfully argued for it to become a sovereign canton.

During the Second Paris Peace Conference (1815), which followed Napoleon's second abdication, Kapodístrias and Pictet distinguished themselves once again by securing by decree the powers' famous recognition of Switzerland's permanent neutrality, one of Switzerland's long-held aspirations and a major aim of the great powers, Russia in particular. The declaration was written by Pictet on Kapodístrias's request, who then transmitted it to the Allies' high representatives. During the two congresses, Kapodístrias was the most faithful, tireless and effective advocate of Swiss interests and a trusted guide and compass to Pictet de Rochemont, the most respected man in the Republic of Geneva.

Honour your history for what it is. The very least you can do.

[Rugoz]

Liberal France and the US were not present in the Congress of Vienna, Russia and Kapodistrias was. The rest of the powers just wanted to dominate Switzerland like Napoleon had done earlier. It was because of Russia and Kapodistrias that Switzerland is what it is today. That is actually the historical consensus among historians rather than the wishful ignorance of anti-Russian laymen.

The history of Swiss neutrality is too complex to attribute it to a single individual or even a single power. I obviously won't attribute it to any Swiss individual either.

Why would Switzerland exhibit diplomatic friendliness for Russia in a Swiss-Greek Article of the Federation?

It's a page on Swiss-Greek relations that praises Kapodistrias. It's also telling that the German version is somewhat more reserved.

You have no credibility and as you admit yourself no knowledge of any of this either. Your ignorance is not 'diplomatic friendliness' mate, your denial is a disservice to the memories of those who actually did something so that you can enjoy the privileges you currently enjoy.

You have no knowledge of it whatsoever. You know what your Greek guy presumably did and that's about it. I suggest you read through the entire history of Switzerland on Wiki (preferably in German because it's more detailed) before making grand claims about what happened because of what.

[noemon]

The history of Swiss neutrality is too complex to attribute it to a single individual or even a single power. I obviously won't attribute it to any Swiss individual either.
It's a page on Swiss-Greek relations that praises Kapodistrias. It's also telling that the German version is somewhat more reserved.
You have no knowledge of it whatsoever. You know what your Greek guy presumably did and that's about it. I suggest you read through the entire history of Switzerland on Wiki (preferably in German because it's more detailed) before making grand claims about what happened because of what.

It is quite evident that anti-Greek and anti-Russian German nationalism in Switzerland only tells you what you need to know as most countries do in the world. People generally have a false idea of Switzerland, thinking it modern, when in fact the Swiss are the yodels of Europe. Ultra-nationalist, sexist and racist, they are among the most reactionary people in the planet. Women were granted the right to vote in 1971 and in some cantons in 1991. A few years ago Swiss German racists were going mental at Germans from Germany, screaming that 'Germans are taking our jarbs'.

You clearly have an aversion to both Greece and Russia that prevents you from even acknowledging what the official Swiss history is telling you.

Swiss unity, Swiss neutrality, the Diet, Geneva, Vaud and the current Swiss borders have all been effected by Kapodistrias and Russia according to the Swiss themselves.

You can learn to live with it or you can be having temper tantrums every time I mention it in here, without miss.

[Rugoz]

Swiss unity, Swiss neutrality, the Diet, Geneva, Vaud and the current Swiss borders have all been effected by Kapodistrias and Russia according to the Swiss themselves.

Swiss unity arguably only existed after 1848 (there was a short civil war before that) and obviously Switzerland was a confederacy before 1848. The Diet (Tagsatzung) existed since the early days of Switzerland (14th century), it was reintroduced by Napoleon in 1803 after abolishing it in 1798.

The rest is true, though Kapodistrias and Russia weren't the only parties who effected it.

I'll just ignore the rant part.

[noemon]

I'll just ignore the rant part.

When you openly claim that the official Swiss German version of history is different than the English version of history in the same government website, you are openly admitting that your own nation is telling one thing to one group and another to another group.

My "rant" was the least you can expect after making such an argument.

I will just leave this here for those interested in actual recorded history to make their own conclusions:

Kapodístrias arrived in Switzerland at a moment when the country was deeply divided and on the brink of civil war. Driven by extraordinary determination and strength of conviction, Kapodístrias managed, after ten months of dialogue and negotiation, to persuade the cantons to come together to lay the foundations for the creation of today's Swiss Confederation. Kapodístrias wrote constitutional drafts, resolutions, decisions and letters. Thanks to his unremitting efforts and persistence, Kapodístrias was also said to be "undeniably the most [...] decisive influence" among the envoys of the allied powers. After his first mission to Switzerland, each canton drafted a new constitution, the Diet (assembly of cantonal delegates) ratified the Federal Constitution, civil order was restored and Switzerland was recognised by the Allies.

An advocate of Swiss interests at the Congress of Vienna and the 1815 Treaty of Paris

During the Congress of Vienna (September 1814 – June 1815) attended by the diplomatic representatives of the victors of the Napoleonic Wars – the European great powers – Kapodístrias made the acquaintance of the Geneva statesman Charles Pictet Rochemont, who had a mandate to represent the Republic of Geneva. The two men became friends. With the Geneva representative François d’Ivernois, they worked together to rally Geneva to join the Swiss Confederation as a canton, consolidate its territory and thus establish a secure military border for the canton and the Confederation. Following the 1815 congress, Geneva joined the Confederation, giving the country its final borders which have remained unchanged to this day. The Vaud region is also indebted to Kapodístrias, who successfully argued for it to become a sovereign canton.

During the Second Paris Peace Conference (1815), which followed Napoleon's second abdication, Kapodístrias and Pictet distinguished themselves once again by securing by decree the powers' famous recognition of Switzerland's permanent neutrality, one of Switzerland's long-held aspirations and a major aim of the great powers, Russia in particular. The declaration was written by Pictet on Kapodístrias's request, who then transmitted it to the Allies' high representatives. During the two congresses, Kapodístrias was the most faithful, tireless and effective advocate of Swiss interests and a trusted guide and compass to Pictet de Rochemont, the most respected man in the Republic of Geneva.

[Rugoz]

When you openly claim that the official Swiss German version of history is different than the English version of history in the same government website, you are openly admitting that your own nation is telling one thing to one group and another to another group.

It is more nuanced, not different, but it doesn't matter, because the history presented in that article only represents a small slice of the total.

P.S. one obvious inaccuracy is to call the 1815 federal treaty the federal constitution. Even Wiki makes a proper distinction between the two.

[noemon]

P.S. one obvious inaccuracy is to call the 1815 federal treaty the federal constitution. Even Wiki makes a proper distinction between the two.

The Federal Treaty defined a confederation between 22 independent Cantons. From 1815 until the Swiss Federal Constitution of 1848, it acted as the Restorationist Constitution of Switzerland.

[Igor Antunov]

There's so much western media attention given to this relative nobody in Russia, you know it's just another propaganda campaign.

[Potemkin]

There's so much western media attention given to this relative nobody in Russia, you know it's just another propaganda campaign.

What puzzles me about the West is that it keeps trying to promote a liberal alternative in Russian politics, while simultaneously creating the objective conditions which make it impossible for that liberal alternative to ever be politically viable in Russia. They do what they did to Russia in the 1990s, then they expect the Russian people to elect guys like Navalny instead of guys like Putin. It's bizarre.

[noemon]

There is absolutely zero media talking about Navalny in the west.

He is nowhere to be seen in British media and nowhere to be seen in Greek media as well that I monitor on a daily basis.

[ingliz]

@noemon

Not closely enough, it seems.

It was only a few days ago that CNN was rattling on about the penal colony where he is being held, the poor conditions, and his deteriorating health.

[noemon]

@noemon
Not closely enough, it seems.
It was only a few days ago that CNN was rattling on about the penal colony where he is being held, the poor conditions, and his deteriorating health.

So if any western paper reports on Navalny's deteriorating condition in prison, then that means that what exactly?

Navalny is not a subject in western media, he barely gets a mention and most people in the west have not even heard of him. I know none of my friends in real life have ever heard of him.

Also where is the article and what is its date?

[ingliz]

3 days ago.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/04/07/navalny-hunger-strike-prison-lkl-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/around-the-world/





Admin edit: Video wrapped in url tags because it's not playing and is causing a lot of lag in the page.

[noemon]

3 days ago.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/04/07/navalny-hunger-strike-prison-lkl-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/around-the-world/

"CNN's Matthew Chance reports that Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny continues his hunger strike in prison despite his declining health"

And?

[Rugoz]

The Federal Treaty defined a confederation between 22 independent Cantons. From 1815 until the Swiss Federal Constitution of 1848, it acted as the Restorationist Constitution of Switzerland.

That's fair, as long it's not called the "Federal Constitution" (i.e. "Bundesverfassung" in German). The distinction is important, because it was the Federal Constitution of 1848 than turned Switzerland into a modern nation state, with representative government, two legislative chambers, guaranteed fundamental rights etc. The previous constitutions retained the confederacy (with the exception of the short-lived Helvetic Republic).

What puzzles me about the West is that it keeps trying to promote a liberal alternative in Russian politics, while simultaneously creating the objective conditions which make it impossible for that liberal alternative to ever be politically viable in Russia. They do what they did to Russia in the 1990s, then they expect the Russian people to elect guys like Navalny instead of guys like Putin. It's bizarre.

There's hardly a liberal alternative to Putin because Putin is fairly liberal by Russian standards. His liberalism ends where it threatens his power. The idea that Putin broke with the economic policies of the 1990s is a myth IMO.

It was a reckoning with a political rival and a paramilitary group rather than a purge in the NSDAP. Hitler had to do it mostly because the SA caused him problems with the Reichswehr, it wasn't really an ideological issue, even though Röhm meant to be a more radical Nazi. It was time to liquidate him and dissolve the SA anyway regardless of ideological differences. (I actually didn't know what you meant by "purge", your argument just sounded illogical to me.)

That presumes Röhm's socialist program was minor factor for Hitler's conservative allies. Possible. My point was that the "socialist" in NSDAP wasn't just a facade. Hitler was above all a rabid German racial nationalist and Jew hater. He had different priorities.

[Beren]

My point was that the "socialist" in NSDAP wasn't just a facade.

It actually turned out to be that, didn't it? The NSDAP was supported and financed by industrialists, monopolists, militarists (including the military itself), junkers, and other Conservatives and Reactionaries while socialistic elements got purged from it. As a matter of fact Hitler, so thus the NSDAP itself, never meant to be really socialist, and if you happened to be a socialist comrade, you got sidelined or could have even been purged/murdered for it. So if you joined the NSDAP as a Socialist because you believed it to be a real socialist party, you were wrong to do so. The NSDAP had never been a socialist party just because there were some Socialists in it for a while, it had always literally been socialist in name only.

[Potemkin]

It actually turned out to be that, didn't it? The NSDAP was supported and financed by industrialists, monopolists, militarists (including the military itself), junkers, and other Conservatives and Reactionaries while socialistic elements got purged from it. As a matter of fact Hitler, so thus the NSDAP itself, never meant to be really socialist, and if you happened to be a socialist comrade, you got sidelined or could have even been purged/murdered for it. So if you joined the NSDAP as a Socialist because you believed it to be a real socialist party, you were wrong to do so. The NSDAP had never been a socialist party just because there were some Socialists in it for a while, it had always literally been socialist in name only.

The 'socialism' part was intended to dupe the working class into joining the side of the reactionaries in the immediate aftermath of Germany's collapse in 1918. You have to bear in mind that "socialism" was not a dirty word in Germany back then; on the contrary, the German working class were mad keen on it - they had just overthrown the Kaiser in a revolution, and Bavaria had gone Soviet just a few months before the NSDAP was founded by Anton Drexler, and he founded it as a reaction against the Bavarian Soviet, which he hated. Hitler came along, joined the new party on the orders of his military superiors (they were using the ex-corporal Hitler to infiltrate small political parties on both the Left and the Right, to find out what these groups were getting up to), and then shook off the control of his military handlers and took over the party. As he later said, he found himself in agreement with its policy platform (nationalist, anti-semitic, anti-Marxist, anti-Versailles Treaty), and realised that the NSDAP was small enough, and its existing leadership weak and flabby enough, that he could take it over. Which he did. But the word "socialist" was just as useful to him as the word "nationalist" in the party's name - it suggested to the workers that they could have socialist policies without revolution, a welfare state without a Soviet republic. In other words, they could have their cake and eat it. Of course, as it transpired, they couldn't; but by the time they realised that, it was too late.

[Beren]

the NSDAP was founded by Anton Drexler

It was the DAP, National Socialism was Hitler's idea and contribution, not Drexler's. Hitler founded the National-Sozialistische D.A.P., which wasn't Nazi in name only and hadn't been Nazi before. Nazism was socialist in name only, though.


I don't mean to be a smartass here, it's just important.

[Potemkin]

It was the DAP, National Socialism was Hitler's idea and contribution, not Drexler's. Hitler founded the National-Sozialistische D.A.P., which wasn't Nazi in name only and hadn't been Nazi before. Nazism was socialist in name only, though.


I don't mean to be a smartass here, it's just important.

Granted, but Drexler initially wanted to call the party 'The German Socialist Workers Party', but Harrer objected to the term 'socialist', so Drexler settled for 'German Workers Party'. And, ironically, the word 'socialist' was put back in by the party's executive committee in 1920, against Hitler's objections, to increase the party's appeal to the working class.

I don't mean to be a smartass here, it's just important.

[Beren]

Granted, but Drexler initially wanted to call the party 'The German Socialist Workers Party', but Harrer objected to the term 'socialist', so Drexler settled for 'German Workers Party'. And, ironically, the word 'socialist' was put back in by the party's executive committee in 1920, against Hitler's objections, to increase the party's appeal to the working class.

Ironically, the DAP may have been more socialist than the NSDAP was.

I don't mean to be a smartass here, it's just important.

Sure.