[noemon]

Hmm, my videos showed thousand of Muslims practicing their religion freely.
Your video showed a handful of youths in a correctional center, with a silly headline and narrative built over it. Seems kinda nice compared to the shithole that is cessnock correctional. We cage 10+ year old repeat offenders in cells for weeks. No dancing and fun to be had.
Where's the problem?

Uyghur Muslims are forbidden from practising their religion in China, forbidden to teach it to their children and are interred in concentration camps against their will. Perhaps you do not see any problem with that but normal people do.

China's five officially sanctioned religious organizations are the Buddhist Association of China, Chinese Taoist Association, Islamic Association of China, Three-Self Patriotic Movement and Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. These groups have been overseen and controlled by the United Front Work Department of the Communist Party of China since the State Administration for Religious Affairs' absorption into the United Front Work Department in 2018.[6] Unregistered religious groups—including house churches, Falun Gong, Tibetan Buddhists, underground Catholics, and Uyghur Muslims—face varying degrees of harassment, including imprisonment and torture.[2]

[Igor Antunov]

I just showed you thousands of uighur muslims practising their religion in China.

And yes correctional centers for convinced criminals tend to incarcerate people against their will. That's the point. The proposition that they're in there for wrong-think is unsubstantiated and frankly ridiculous.

And no that was not a jail for hardened criminals. It looks like a youth center/vocational school. If they're at all similar then the incentives for voluntary attendance are financial and academic.

The one photo often bandied about with the guys in blue jumpsuits is an actual prison for convicted criminals. They're not in there for practicing their religion.

[noemon]

I just showed you thousands of Uighur muslims practising their religion in China.

You must be hallucinating.

The proposition that they're in there for wrong-think is unsubstantiated and frankly ridiculous.

It is substantiated both by the inmates and their jailers.

[Igor Antunov]

I'm not hallucinating, I promise.

And it's 'substantiated' by a heavily edited BBC report with subtitles and select guest appearances. Being caught with extremist material in Germany, Canada, France or Australia will land you in correctional system for charges of intent to commit terrorism. They must have been naughty boys and girls but not naughty enough to end up in an actual prison. My guess is because they're younger.

[noemon]

I'm not hallucinating, I promise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qndjrr7t9mA&t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU2EC6kKeek

China tolerating Islamic exhibitions during Eid does not mean anything; your images CCTV is funded in whole or in part by the Chinese government. Your stitched feel-good videos of abstract Muslims in China is just visual propaganda with no context whatsoever.

Uyghur Islam is not recognised in China, Uyghurs are not allowed to teach their religion to their kids and they are also massively incarcerated.

China's five officially sanctioned religious organizations are the Buddhist Association of China, Chinese Taoist Association, Islamic Association of China, Three-Self Patriotic Movement and Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. These groups have been overseen and controlled by the United Front Work Department of the Communist Party of China since the State Administration for Religious Affairs' absorption into the United Front Work Department in 2018.[6] Unregistered religious groups—including house churches, Falun Gong, Tibetan Buddhists, underground Catholics, and Uyghur Muslims—face varying degrees of harassment, including imprisonment and torture.[2]

And it's 'substantiated' by a heavily edited BBC report with subtitles and select guest appearances.

Both the jailers and the inmates explicitly corroborate the fact that the inmates are in there for wrong-think.

[Igor Antunov]

I doubt they are in there for posting hateful content on twitter cough Canada cough britain cough. BBC made sure to emphasize that reason, that's all. That guy mentioned he was a delinquent, so it implies he's in there for other stuff, some of it physical. They edit together what they feel like, throw away the rest.

Islam is recognized in China. Uighur's are free to practice Islam. See video for reference. And proportionally speaking the incarceration rate in China is very small. The majority of China's 1.5 million inmates are Han. Unlike the west where the vast majority are minorities.

[noemon]

I doubt they are in there for posting hateful content on twitter cough Canada cough britain cough. BBC made sure to emphasize that reason, that's all. That guy mentioned he was a delinquent, so it implies he's in there for other stuff, some of it physical. They edit together what they feel like, throw away the rest.

The guy did not mention "he is a delinquent". If that Uyghur guy in the video who is doing his best to parrot Chinese propaganda is a 'delinquent' then what does that make you?

Journo: "Did you come here of your own free will?"

Guy: "Yes, yes of course I did, I had extremist thoughts that had to be cured, a police officer in my town told me to"

Or the jailer:

"How is it a jail if people can paint?"

Islam is recognized in China. Uighur's are free to practice Islam. See video for reference. And proportionally speaking the incarceration rate in China is very small. The majority of China's 1.5 million inmates are Han. Unlike the west where the vast majority are minorities.

Islam may be recognised in China in some form, but Uyghur Islam is not recognised in China.

China's five officially sanctioned religious organizations are the Buddhist Association of China, Chinese Taoist Association, Islamic Association of China, Three-Self Patriotic Movement and Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. These groups have been overseen and controlled by the United Front Work Department of the Communist Party of China since the State Administration for Religious Affairs' absorption into the United Front Work Department in 2018.[6] Unregistered religious groups—including house churches, Falun Gong, Tibetan Buddhists, underground Catholics, and Uyghur Muslims—face varying degrees of harassment, including imprisonment and torture.[2]

[Rugoz]

We're seeing the same thing happen with the Xinjiang "genocide" claims, but this time the newspapers often aren't even pretending to do the reporting themselves. Dig beneath the surface, and the original source almost always seems to be a State Department-backed NGO, Radio Free Asia, or God forbid, Adrian Zenz.

Those sources are not necessarily wrong. "state departement-backed" is such a meaningless accusation, you would have to attach a number to it. In any case, you are right that newspapers often just "quote" those accusations, but not exclusively so. Your Iraq comparison is also inaccurate, since a lot of news I read at the time weren't buying into the WMD claims or at least thought the evidence to be insufficient.

[noemon]

Most people in here thought the Iraq accusations of WMD's to be bollocks, it does not however magically make the mass incarceration of Uyghur Muslims any less true.

China has been doing it for much too long to simply be overlooked, western media have been complicit in overlooking extreme Chinese actions due to China's place within the western capitalist system.

It requires massive realignment of our own western systems to disentangle from China in a meaningful way that would make a difference.

Our media are either not reporting anything negative on China or are walking on massive eggshells when they do as they are directly threatened by China along with all our governments.

[Heisenberg]

Those sources are not necessarily wrong.

They are not necessarily wrong, but they are no necessarily right, either. The reports used to source the "1 million" figure are all based on anonymous sources or fanciful extrapolations from the imagination of Adrian Zenz. The director of the UHRP, which has been cited in this thread as a pillar of reliability and truth, admitted in an interview with Grayzone that the figures are based on "western media estimates", rather than actual evidence.

There's also the rather awkward fact for the "genocide" crowd that China invited something like 1,000 media and diplomatic figures to Xinjiang in 2019 to see these alleged "death camps" for themselves, and even the World Bank admitted in a statement that the allegations were unsubstantiated.

And, if China's "genocide" was as cut-and-dry as western media would like us to believe, I find it a bit fanciful that so many Muslim majority countries - including staunch US ally Saudi Arabia! - would not only vote down anti-China UN resolutions on this issue, but express their support for Chinese policy in Xinjiang. It's also notable that the history of Chinese policy in Xinjiang is never contextualised with the rather important fact that there has been a prolonged Salafist insurgency in the region, including suicide bombings against civilians.

Actually, the fact that the split is so clearly between the global north and global south should give any fair minded person pause. But of course, the unspoken assumption in all of this is that first hand accounts from non-white and non-western diplomats are lies, while the "research" of a German Christian fundamentalist - who hasn't visited China in a decade and can't read Chinese - is to be taken as gospel truth.

[Rugoz]

There's also the rather awkward fact for the "genocide" crowd that China invited something like 1,000 media and diplomatic figures to Xinjiang in 2019 to see these alleged "death camps" for themselves, and even the World Bank admitted in a statement that the allegations were unsubstantiated.

Ah yes, the infamous guided tours organized by communist regimes. Are you fucking kidding

while the "research" of a German Christian fundamentalist - who hasn't visited China in a decade and can't read Chinese - is to be taken as gospel truth.

You act as if Zenz is the only source, but he isn't. And your laboured attempts of character assassination are not as convincing as you think they are.

[noemon]

Since 2014,[1] the Chinese government under the Xi Jinping Administration has pursued a policy which has led to more than one million Muslims[2][3][4][5][6] (the majority of them Uyghurs) being held in secretive detention camps without any legal process[7][8][9] Critics of the policy have described it as the sinicization of Xinjiang and have called it an ethnocide or cultural genocide,[10][11][12][13][14][15] while many activists, independent NGOs, human rights experts, government officials, and the East Turkistan Government-in-Exile have called it a genocide.[16][17][18][19][20]

In particular, critics have highlighted the concentration of Uyghurs in state-sponsored re-education camps,[21][22] suppression of Uyghur religious practices,[23][24] political indoctrination,[25] severe ill-treatment,[26] and testimonials of alleged human rights abuses including forced sterilization and contraception.[27][28] Chinese government statistics show that from 2015 to 2018, birth rates in the mostly Uyghur regions of Hotan and Kashgar plunged by more than 60%.[29] In the same period, the birth rate of the whole country decreased by 9.69%, from 12.07 to 10.9 per 1,000 people.[30] Chinese authorities acknowledged that birth rates dropped by almost a third in 2018 in Xinjiang, but denied reports of forced sterilization and genocide.[31] Birth rates have continued to plummet in Xinjiang, falling nearly 24% in 2019 alone when compared to just 4.2% nationwide.[29]

“Leave no blind spots,” said two county and township directives in 2018 and 2019 “Contain illegal births and lower fertility levels,” said a third.

Officials and armed police began pounding on doors, looking for kids and pregnant women. Minority residents were ordered to attend weekly flag-raising ceremonies, where officials threatened detention if they didn’t register all their children, according to interviews backed by attendance slips and booklets. Notices found by the AP show that local governments set up or expanded systems to reward those who report illegal births.

In some areas, women were ordered to take gynecology exams after the ceremonies, they said. In others, officials outfitted special rooms with ultrasound scanners for pregnancy tests.

“Test all who need to be tested,” ordered a township directive from 2018. “Detect and deal with those who violate policies early.”

[Heisenberg]

Ah yes, the infamous guided tours organized by communist regimes. Are you fucking kidding

I think Fasces had it right in the other thread. You guys have an unfalsifiable belief that China is committing "genocide", and no amount of evidence to the contrary will persuade you. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

laboured attempts of character assassination

[noemon]

I think Fasces had it right in the other thread. You guys have an unfalsifiable belief that China is committing "genocide", and no amount of evidence to the contrary will persuade you.

You have a jailer telling the camera: "It's not a prison when people can paint".

One must go through severe mental acrobatics to justify this somehow.

There is very concrete evidence that China is treating the Uyghurs very bad.

Your unfalsifiable beliefs about "Iraq" and/or "christian-fundamentalism" somehow being relevant to the previous statement are rather ridiculous indeed.

[Rugoz]

I think Fasces had it right in the other thread. You guys have an unfalsifiable belief that China is committing "genocide", and no amount of evidence to the contrary will persuade you. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

If you think those guided tours amount to evidence you're simply gullible as fuck. If China invites UN inspectors and gives them the same freedom as the Iraqi regime gave UN inspectors, I will believe whatever they find.

Needless to say if China were a right-wing regime, or rather didn't use the "communist" label, you'd be totally on board with all the genocide accusations.

Besides, I never even said it was a genocide. It's an attempt to eradicate a culture or rather reduce it to "ethnic people dancing on Chinese state television", by brutal means. The West of course did similar things in the past. Nowadays the West does it more humanely, by the means of "integration" and "secularization".

[Rancid]

LOL @ Heisenberg

[Heisenberg]

Your unfalsifiable beliefs about "Iraq" and/or "christian-fundamentalism" somehow being relevant to the previous statement are rather ridiculous indeed.

Lol, come on, even you can do better than "no u".

If you think those guided tours amount to evidence you're simply gullible as fuck.

Of course, believing that China has "one million people in death camps" based on extrapolations from anonymous sources by one man several thousand miles away, is the opposite of gullibility.

Needless to say if China were a right-wing regime, or rather didn't use the "communist" label, you'd be totally on board with all the genocide accusations.

If inventing silly hypotheticals is the best you've got, then we have nothing more to say to one another. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

[noemon]

English translation of leaked Chinese document.



"post-80's generation untrustworthy individual".

"Harbors restive thoughts"

"Still maintains certain religious thoughts"

[Rugoz]

Of course, believing that China has "one million people in death camps" based on extrapolations from anonymous sources by one man several thousand miles away, is the opposite of gullibility.

"Death camps"? What's with all the straw men today .

[Rancid]

"Death camps"? What's with all the straw men today .

@Heisenberg is the only person in this thread that has said "death camps".