Uighur treatment by China amounts to 'Genocide' says formal legal text - Page 21 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#15163093
Frigidweirdo wrote:Your "facts" aren't facts.

There's no evidence "400 thousand women" are being forcibly sterilised.

There's some anecdotal evidence of what China is doing, in other words this is people getting out and saying something. Whether what they're saying is "the truth", part of "the truth" or just something people have told them to say to try and give people ammunition is hard to tell.

China had the one child policy, which, surprisingly, didn't actually cover most of the country. If you were religious, or from an ethnic minority you weren't subject to the one child policy. It was mostly Han Chinese and it was mostly city or town people. In the countryside it was possible for a lot of people to have two children.

Was this genocide from the Han Chinese against themselves?

On the other hand we know the Chinese are doing a lot in Xinjiang that does amount to genocide. Importing Han Chinese, trying to export Uighurs out of the region.

We also know that Uighurs were going to places like Pakistan to learn how to be "terrorists" or "freedom fighters", whatever you choose to call them.

We know travel is restricted, when I went in 2014 travel was restricted to certain areas. We wanted to go to the first village in China to have Islam, we were allowed one hour there and weren't allowed into the village.

The hardest thing here is trying to figure out what is known, and what is what people want people to "know".

Clearly China wants Xinjiang, clearly it doesn't want terrorism in the region, I mean, who would? But clearly it is committing genocide, but it's not always clear how it is doing this.

The "re-education camps" are genocide because they're attempting to destroy culture.
An influx of Han Chinese is genocide because it's attempting to destroy the culture of the area.

For example. Beyond that it's a little difficult to know who is manipulating what. Both sides are manipulating, and what do we actually know from this?


What? I mean, you are choosing not to believe any evidence. Or think that it is fake.

Reality is that we have statements from Chinese government that admit they were doing it from before although right now they have become more careful. We have witness testimonies from dozens if not hundreds of former camp dwellers all available on youtube or any of the large medias. We have satellite images available from different sources of those camps. We have videos of the camps and even some guards from those camps have come forward at times on what is going on in them. The Chinese stupidly also published documents relating to their policies. A lot of those people escaped China and now live in other countries including the West.

How much more fucking evidence do you need?
#15163125
Frigidweirdo wrote:China had the one child policy, which, surprisingly, didn't actually cover most of the country. If you were religious, or from an ethnic minority you weren't subject to the one child policy. It was mostly Han Chinese and it was mostly city or town people. In the countryside it was possible for a lot of people to have two children.

Was this genocide from the Han Chinese against themselves?



I can tell you very firmly, yes.

And in fact, the CCP goes much further than that. They are actually keen to destroy whatever culture which might threaten its despotism, even if it's their own. This is already well proven in both the Cultural Revolution and the continuous struggle between the CCP and Han cultures in their fringe areas, such as Guangdong and Hong Kong.

When it comes to staying power they don't blink an eye on exterminating whatever they need.

China was quite notorious of destroying historical stuff that didn't suit their needs (which is why they had notoriously bad archaeological record prior to the Imperial age, and even after that, many of the best archeological stuff were in tombs). The combination of this with Communism, as well as the prospect of them taking the lead only makes things worse.

I firmly believe that, if something is not done, what we all in the world can only do is to wait for a horrible death in a nuclear war, all just because a certain fucking incompetent and arrogant race tries to claim their past glory.
#15163141
Patrickov wrote:I firmly believe that, if something is not done, what we all in the world can only do is to wait for a horrible death in a nuclear war, all just because a certain fucking incompetent and arrogant race tries to claim their past glory.


I don't think it will come to nuclear war, but it will certainly come to a massive war. It's inevitable.
#15163164
Oxymoron wrote:China does not really have a history of external wars especially unlimited types. I doubt this will happen

I seriously doubt that China will engage in a large-scale war. Xi prides himself on being a student of Chinese history, and he has the example of the Sui Dynasty to teach him the folly of that sort of policy.
#15163173
Potemkin wrote:I seriously doubt that China will engage in a large-scale war. Xi prides himself on being a student of Chinese history, and he has the example of the Sui Dynasty to teach him the folly of that sort of policy.

The smart sovereignty-seeking nation will get Big Ugly Empires to destroy one another or to commit suicide.

The Rest-of-the-World has got to do something to defang the WestTM before it's too late. It's obvious that Western plebs will never do anything to change the behavior of *the scoundrels they are slaves for.*

Jeffrey Epstein and the Federal Reserve have our politics all locked up and full of greed-caused atrocities that can't stop internally, as the USA slides from one mafia-appointed creep to another.

All the West can do is to scream and smear any foreign nation that develops too much. This is not a useful function.
#15163190
Rancid wrote:@Oxymoron , @Potemkin,

Perhaps you are right. It will most likely be more economic warfare anyway.

The Chinese government is playing the long game. Don't forget, during the Cultural Revolution, Chairman Mao could have ordered the PLA to invade Hong Kong any time he wanted, and he would have won an easy and cheap victory. He chose not to do that. The Chinese government has a great deal of self-discipline.

you guys don't think they would invade Taiwan?

I seriously doubt it. They are playing a waiting game, just as they did with Hong Kong. Why risk everything on one throw of the dice, when you can win it all just by waiting long enough? These guys are planning decades, even centuries into the future. When China regains its rightful place among the nations of the world, they don't intend to ever lose it again. That means having the patience of a saint and having iron self-discipline. There will be no foreign adventurism for them, either on land or sea.

Having said that, if the Americans were to plonk some nuclear missile silos in the middle of Taiwan, the shit would hit the fan. Lol.
#15163196
Potemkin wrote:There will be no foreign adventurism for them, either on land or sea.

Let's hope you are right. The fact that they have bases in other countries doesn't seem to suggest they are not for foreign adventurism.

I think that nations, like people, once they get strong enough, and know they have power over others, they will wield it.
#15163202
Patrickov wrote:I can tell you very firmly, yes.

And in fact, the CCP goes much further than that. They are actually keen to destroy whatever culture which might threaten its despotism, even if it's their own. This is already well proven in both the Cultural Revolution and the continuous struggle between the CCP and Han cultures in their fringe areas, such as Guangdong and Hong Kong.

When it comes to staying power they don't blink an eye on exterminating whatever they need.

China was quite notorious of destroying historical stuff that didn't suit their needs (which is why they had notoriously bad archaeological record prior to the Imperial age, and even after that, many of the best archeological stuff were in tombs). The combination of this with Communism, as well as the prospect of them taking the lead only makes things worse.

I firmly believe that, if something is not done, what we all in the world can only do is to wait for a horrible death in a nuclear war, all just because a certain fucking incompetent and arrogant race tries to claim their past glory.


How can you tell me "very firmly, yes."??

Where do you get your information from? The CCP?
#15163203
JohnRawls wrote:What? I mean, you are choosing not to believe any evidence. Or think that it is fake.

Reality is that we have statements from Chinese government that admit they were doing it from before although right now they have become more careful. We have witness testimonies from dozens if not hundreds of former camp dwellers all available on youtube or any of the large medias. We have satellite images available from different sources of those camps. We have videos of the camps and even some guards from those camps have come forward at times on what is going on in them. The Chinese stupidly also published documents relating to their policies. A lot of those people escaped China and now live in other countries including the West.

How much more fucking evidence do you need?


Do you know how people control narratives? Do you know how easy it is to present a picture that isn't what it seems to be, so you can bash.

How much evidence do I need about forced sterilization?

Well, I might need evidence of who is being sterilized. Is it women who have already had two children? Is it women who haven't had children already? Women who have had three children? Four? Five?

Videos on youtube of "former camp dwellers" could be anyone. Could be people with a grudge.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071

One guard has come out "The guard said he did not know anything about rape in the cell areas. Asked if the camp guards used electrocution, he said: "Yes. They do. They use those electrocuting instruments.""

So, he says nothing about rape, says they use electrocuting instruments. But doesn't say anything else. The next word after this quote is "torture", linking the two, but is there a link?

But here's a clear example of what I'm talking about.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/wo ... r-BB1dlW03

"Women systematically raped and tortured in Uighur ‘re-education’ camps, says report"

Okay, a report says women are being raped in re-education camps.

"she was tortured and gang-shaped on three occasions, by two or three men each time."

"she was forced to strip other women naked and restrain them “so they cannot move”, before leaving them alone with Chinese men."

None of this points to whether these are Uighurs or not (Uighurs are "Chinese men") It all seems like the language is being presented in a manner to make people want to believe something.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071

"It is impossible to verify Ziawudun's account completely because of the severe restrictions China places on reporters in the country, but travel documents and immigration records she provided to the BBC corroborate the timeline of her story."

So, she might have been in the camp, but she might also be making things up, embellishing thing. She might want to get back at China.

"In separate testimony to the Uyghur Human Rights Project" Who is this "Uyghur Human Rights Project", what do they want, what are they willing to do and say to get what they want?

I couldn't stop the invasion of Iraq when the US was very anti-Muslim, I can't stop this. Nothing you or I do will stop this. This isn't the point of this thread for me. The point is to try and look at this objectively and try and understand what is going on. More often than not it's about trying to understand the narratives, to understand what each side is doing with those narratives to get a better idea.
#15163216
Potemkin wrote:They are playing a waiting game, just as they did with Hong Kong. Why risk everything on one throw of the dice, when you can win it all just by waiting long enough?


They did not wait in Hong Kong. They had been eagerly pushing their agenda for more than two decades, only in the late 2000s they withdrew a little bit. In fact, under Xi Jinping they stopped waiting at all.

Potemkin wrote:These guys are planning decades, even centuries into the future. When China regains its rightful place among the nations of the world, they don't intend to ever lose it again. That means having the patience of a saint and having iron self-discipline. There will be no foreign adventurism for them, either on land or sea.


Nothing is rightful if the regime and, more importantly, the people's mindset, is not rightful.

Potemkin wrote:Having said that, if the Americans were to plonk some nuclear missile silos in the middle of Taiwan, the shit would hit the fan. Lol.


That's unnecessary. Don't the Americans have carriers? They don't even need a land to launch their missiles.
#15163218
QatzelOk wrote:The smart sovereignty-seeking nation will get Big Ugly Empires to destroy one another or to commit suicide.


China is a Big Ugly Empire, and if they can, will be way uglier than the United States.

At least the United States and / or some countries under their protection are somewhere that people dream of moving to.

China? You can't even criticise the government for their faults. Even if the Central Government don't give a damn, the local ones will be so eager to persecute you and your family to death (as in the case of Li WangYang, url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Lianhai]Zhao Lianhai[/url] or Chen Guangcheng). Arguably the Wuhan pneumonia got out of hand because of this (as in the case of Li WenLiang, although foreign leaders and deniers' responsibility are also as great if not more).

And the people there are so indulged in the so-called "national glory" that they endorse the atrocities committed by the government, and pay no respect to whoever rightfully against them.

The likes of you are no different from them, just that "national glory" is replaced by "socialism" and "anti-Imperialism". You are merely not the worst kind.
#15163233
Oxymoron wrote:China does not really have a history of external wars especially unlimited types. I doubt this will happen


China simply doesn't have a history of anything it is doing right now. It's in uncharted territory, it's the first country of its kind to actually be sustainable. Whether it stays sustainable is not clear, because of the massive amounts of money it's pumping into it's military, police, CCTV and social credit system, government officials, government buildings. It can pay for it all now because it has a large pre-65 year olds population, it has cheap old people to do lots of jobs and it has a low wage expectancy, like $500 a month is okay for a lot of people.

This will change, the one child policy came in in 1979, so the age group under the age of 42 is a shrinking work force, there simply aren't enough people to cope with the massive amounts of people 42-60 who will be retiring in the next 18 years.

And wages are going up and up and up and up. The Chinese economy doubled from 2011 to 2020. Wages will have doubled too, and the economy can expect to double again in the next 10 years.
#15163235
noemon wrote:The evidence is in this very thread. China placed 328k IUD devices to women in Xinjiang and permanently sterilised another 60 thousand women in Xinjiang in a single year.

IUD devices can only be removed by state authorities and are the first step to permanent sterilisation.



Uyghurs in Xinjiang were not subjected to the 1 one child policy because it has historically been an extremely underpopulated and underdeveloped area.

Now that the 1 child policy has been removed from the Han who are 1.3 billion people, it has been forcibly imposed to Uyghurs who are no more than 13 million in total. This means that the women of breeding age cannot be more than 4 million.

The idea that China gives privileges to minorities for the sake of them being minorities is absolutely ridiculous when one takes into account, its extremely racist mono-ethnic culture and it's factual bad treatment of minorities like the Uyghurs, the Tibetans and others.



This is bad form and makes the opposite point than intended. Uyghurs being desperate will seek any help they can get.

Kudos to them for trying, if they had other options instead of Pakistan they would take them in a heartbeat. And even this refers to a long time ago and a couple of isolated incidents.

The obvious fact is that they are self-aware as a people. And that explains why China is forcibly "re-educating" them which is a crime against humanity.


Well, I've done a quick scan of that thread, and I can't find the evidence you're talking about.

What is the policy in Xinjiang? Is there forced sterilization of women with no children? One child? Two children? What is it?

The problem here is that if you look at this from the Chinese perspective, it might look a lot different.

China has Xinjiang, the people of Xinjiang had a violent uprising in 2009.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_Ürümqi_riots

An estimated 197 people died, mostly Han Chinese.

China claims the rioting happened because of the World Uighur Congress, the Uighurs claim it wasn't.

But the reality here is one of religion. The Chinese govt has clamped down on all religions. Why? Because historically and even in contemporary History in many countries around the world, religion has been a NEGATIVE FORCE.

Northern Ireland, where Christians fight Christians.
Iran and Saudi Arabia (among many) with Muslims fighting Muslims.
Sudan and its civil war.

I could keep going and going and going, Christianity has been a force of evil around the world, as has Islam.

China wants to stop religion being an issue. You can be religious in China, but you cannot allow your religion to be a force of power. A destabilizing power, a power that decides what it wants to do and ferments violence.

And certainly we know the Uighurs were going to Pakistan to be trained.

https://www.dawn.com/news/648505/xinjia ... stan-china

China blamed Pakistan trained Uighurs in 2009.

https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... m-6098655/

And here we have Pakistan informing the Chinese of Uighurs training in Pakistan.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-28085994

You have the Kunming train station attack in 2014. 31 dead to Uighur terrorists.

What do you expect a country to do about internal terrorism?

Which countries have dealt with internal terrorism and not dealt with those doing it harshly?

The US had the Native Americans and almost wiped them out from society, most being banished to poor farming land and plied with alcohol.

Note: This isn't me defending China. This is me presenting the Chinese view of things. I don't need to post my opinion here. That's not what this is about. My opinion doesn't matter here. It's not going to change anything.
#15163242
Frigidweirdo wrote:Well, I've done a quick scan of that thread, and I can't find the evidence you're talking about.

What is the policy in Xinjiang? Is there forced sterilization of women with no children? One child? Two children? What is it?


As the newest Chinese apologist we would all be very interested if you brought Chinese documents showing us the following:

From the 328 thousand women that had an IUD operation in Xinjiang in a single year, how many had no children?

From the 60 thousand women that were permanently sterilised in Xinjiang in that same single year, how many had 0 children?

And what type of consent was demanded by China?

Frigidweirdo wrote:Note: This isn't me defending China. This is me presenting the Chinese view of things. I don't need to post my opinion here. That's not what this is about. My opinion doesn't matter here. It's not going to change anything.


I have seen your lot in every single comment section and forum across the entire english speaking world, you have come out in droves the past week.

You are a new brand of paid Chinese propagandists. That is not particularly a major problem in here as long as you obey the rules and you do not engage in spam and mindless repetition.

Your whataboutism has no effect on this community.

If Uyghur people are unhappy to stage protests and riots then normal countries discuss with the aggrieved and figure out common solutions. They do not detain the entire population in special internment camps for forceful "re-education".

When terrorists do terrorism, normal people imprison the terrorists, not their families, extended families and co-nationals.

@Fasces Are you saying that 600 thousand foreigners in China prove that China is open, welcome and a destination for global migrants? 600 thousand foreigners in the whole of China is a fantastically tiny amount of people.

Just because you migrated to China, it does not mean that China is a destination for global economic migrants. It isn't.
#15163251
Fasces wrote:Implying that the developing world isn't people.


If they can move to, say, Europe, Korea or Japan they probably won't choose China.

As I see, countries like England also full of Africans and South Asians, even some of your allies on PoFo are among them.

And if China is so good why don't Libyan and Syrian refugees go there (via, say, Iran, and if you guys have such a high regard of Iran I am sure they will help), but Europe instead?

And also why Latin Americans, despite all their suffering in the hands of the United States (according to the likes of you, again), flock to the United States but not Cuba or China?
#15163258
Fasces wrote:Implying that the developing world isn't people. African and South Asian migration in particular is becoming a huge source of immigrants.

Image

Image

Image


As much as I understand, after 2015 foreigners have been leaving China in droves and there are reports about it but no real statistics provided by anybody including China.

Also there has been increasing bans on foreigners leaving China starting for 2018. Which is kinda weird but okay.

At least I heard that much about the situation.

Note: I am not saying that you explicitly made the graph until 2015 for a reason but can you clarify a bit?
#15163354
Patrickov wrote:And if China is so good why don't Libyan and Syrian refugees go there (via, say, Iran, and if you guys have such a high regard of Iran I am sure they will help), but Europe instead?

If China is so bad... why is it that it is the WestTM that is creating so many Muslim refugees all over the world to the point of triggering a world war?

With all the spite this thread is trying to build against China and its internal dealings with its ethnic Muslims, I think we have forgotten that there are Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen that might need a band-aid or two .... because of the WestTM.
  • 1
  • 19
  • 20
  • 21
  • 22
  • 23
  • 25

Will @skinster insist on her demand of watching […]

I (still) have a dream

...Kids don't need to drive anywhere to play with[…]

Jared Kushner is inspired by the real estate pote[…]

Or maybe you are simply wrong. :roll: Ya[…]