[Patrickov]

I don't think that anyone allying with Russia or showing support for Putin at this time is a good idea.

Can't say it's a good or bad idea in the strategic sense, but I think those who do now are morally corrupt.

[Independent_Srpska]

It's like inviting the Vandals to protect you. But who'll protect you from them?

We know who, don't we?

The USA protecting Latin America from Vandals since the end of WW2...oil on canvas... colorized...

[Tainari88]

Hey @Tainari88, I am as studly as they come!! The Social Democrat part is accurate, though.

I don't think that anyone allying with Russia or showing support for Putin at this time is a good idea.

Have you ever heard of the phrase Godstud? Concentrate on your own problems? That is what the US needs to do with their divided nation that is split down the middle and not resolving bread and butter issues.

Are they going into a hot war with Russia? Over Ukraine? Yes or no?

They have decisions to make. What do the American people want to have happen with that situation in Europe?

Worrying about Latin America when they fucked everything up for years is not a good thing.

Best thing they can do is avoid a recession and if they lose the elections and the Republicans are back?

Beren can be the next Torquemada and go and find Bluto says types to inquire just how truthful they are...

And you are studly Godstud. I think you are nice, handsome man with a fine taste in motorcycles...

[Patrickov]

The USA protecting Latin America from Vandals since the end of WW2...

Much earlier than that, in fact. Look up Monroeism.

The place brought under US protection after WW2 is on the other side of the Pacific, i.e. Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc.

Even Vietnam, once fought the US and forced the US to have a taste of the bitter end, now know how good they actually are.

In any case, the US is the Roman Empire we are talking about, not Latin America (who are closer to the Gauls and the other people under Roman administration)

[Beren]

The USA protecting Latin America from Vandals since the end of WW2

The Soviets weren't such Vandals actually, they were cultured civilisators compared to Vandal Vandarovic's demolishion squads disguised as squadrons.

[Potemkin]

The Soviets weren't such Vandals actually, they were cultured civilisators compared to Vandal Vandarovic's demolishion squads disguised as squadrons.

The Soviets actually possessed an enlightened ideology, which they tended to impose rather brutally. They were like Charlemagne’s Empire imposing Christianity on the Saxons, or the Spanish conquistadors planting the Christian Cross in the soil of the New World. Putin’s regime, on the other hand, has no ideology other than Russian nationalism and expansionism for its own sake. He’s not even Peter the Great, who at least had a westernisation and modernisation project. Ideologically speaking, Putin is a nullity, just as Nicholas II was a nullity. His brutality is just brutality, not the birth-pangs of a new and better world….

[Beren]

Putin is a nullity

I wonder if he'd have made it to general in the KGB, but I'm sure he'd have never made it to the very top or even close to it. He should rather be happy that the USSR collapsed, maybe he actually is, because they'd have never appreciated his mediocrity that much.

[Rancid]

The Soviets actually possessed an enlightened ideology, which they tended to impose rather brutally. They were like Charlemagne’s Empire imposing Christianity on the Saxons, or the Spanish conquistadors planting the Christian Cross in the soil of the New World. Putin’s regime, on the other hand, has no ideology other than Russian nationalism and expansionism for its own sake. He’s not even Peter the Great, who at least had a westernisation and modernisation project. Ideologically speaking, Putin is a nullity, just as Nicholas II was a nullity. His brutality is just brutality, not the birth-pangs of a new and better world….

Putin, the man of history.

Yea, I think you are right. He's going to be viewed as a jackass like Mussolini. This deployment or whatever dumb shit in Nicaragua just shows how stuck in the past this guy is.


Anyway,

On pofo, there has been a tendency of our authoritarians (especially in the Ukraine war thread) to use maps to make points. The problem with their (disingenuous) use of maps is that they lack very important context and are often very misinterpreted. Of course, these authoritarians do this on purpose since they are dishonest pieces of shit. Example, the poster of the map below asks the viewer to assume that all of those US interventions by default were failed/bad/etc. Yet, if we look at for example, the Dominican in 61 & 65. If you actually knew anything, you would realize that those interventions are viewed favorable by the vast majority of Dominicans (it's the intervention from the 1910's-1920's that are viewed as fucked up and gave rise to the dictatorship). Dominican's have a very favorable opinion of the US. Something like 80%+ have a positive view of the US; this has been consistent. A friend of mine that grew up there, even notes how Dominicans hate Spain more than just about any other country. Those interventions put the DR in the path it is today, which is one of the largest and consistently growing economies in Latin America. The quality of life improvement, and build up of infrastructure from the time I was a kid to now is incredible (I didn't grow up there, but I visit often). Dominicans credit that in part to the stability after those interventions.

The drive by "point" made by the moron that posted the map below basically lacks the deeper information that is needed to draw a proper judgement from all of those interventions.

I'm not saying that US intervention is good. I've already stated that the US shouldn't play Russia's dumb shit stuck in the past game with Nicaragua earlier (especially given that Russia's trajectory is to grow weaker). The point here is that the moron that posted the map is a moron.

We know who, don't we?

The USA protecting Latin America from Vandals since the end of WW2...oil on canvas... colorized...

[wat0n]

Do you go to Thailand and tell the Thais to dump the King and the Monarchy and become liberal democracies?

You got to talk the talk and walk the walk. If an election doesn't come out in your favor? You do what? Pump money into the opposition? Manipulate from afar?

You leave the country alone for them to work on it. Why is it that is so hard for the US to do in this side of the world?

If someone or a group is getting tortured, and killed and there is violence like in Rwanda? You better intervene! To save lives.

If the Rwandans have free and fair elections and somehow they don't agree with Washington DC's ideas of what a political government in charge should look like? You do what?

It is simple.

Be consistent. Be respectful. Be democratic and be responsible. It is not hard. It just means don't act like an Empire without scruples. That is it. Not a difficult message to understand.

It's funny you mention Rwanda, since back in the day the world had the experience of watching Hutus hack Tutsis to death on the news. And indeed, no one did anything. Is that your proposed approach? Should we follow it every time, everywhere?

And actually, yes, I'd advice the Thais to do away with their monarchy if it doesn't work. Maybe they will, depending on how the current king does.

Hell, I'd even advice getting rid of monarchies altogether, but I understand the system works for some countries.

I also think ultimately this is actually the Nicaraguans' (and Venezuelans') fault for voting the likes of Ortega and Chávez to begin with. I feel sorry for them but this fact alone also makes me less prone to want to solve their problems for them.

[Beren]

This deployment or whatever dumb shit in Nicaragua just shows how stuck in the past this guy is.

It actually shows his pettiness. He's going to save Ortega's arse for what? Both of them should go.

[Tainari88]

The Soviets actually possessed an enlightened ideology, which they tended to impose rather brutally. They were like Charlemagne’s Empire imposing Christianity on the Saxons, or the Spanish conquistadors planting the Christian Cross in the soil of the New World. Putin’s regime, on the other hand, has no ideology other than Russian nationalism and expansionism for its own sake. He’s not even Peter the Great, who at least had a westernisation and modernisation project. Ideologically speaking, Putin is a nullity, just as Nicholas II was a nullity. His brutality is just brutality, not the birth-pangs of a new and better world….

Birth pangs of a new and better world? Ay Potemkin. The birth of a new and better world is about the same concepts I covered in this thread. Equality and respect.

Did you read 'The Conquest of New Iberia" by Bernal Diaz del Castillo Penguin edition? The chronicler from Andalucia for Hernan Cortez?

The Spanish truly did not want to march on to an unknown world with unknown challenges. But Cortez burned all those ships in Veracruz. because he knew his ass was grass if he went back to Havana....

He had La Malinche translating for him.

And strange animals from Europe and Asia...called horses. And swords and muskets. But what brought down the Aztecs was their treatment of their neighbors and their lack of resistance to European diseases. A catastrophe of microscopic sizes. Sort of like pandemics. Disease and conspiracies from disgruntled neighbors and tribes, who had to be giving the Aztecs their due or suffer the consequences....hmmm. Hubris does make an appearance.

How as humans we rarely see the flaws that are quite clear in the past and in the present eh? We just wait for catastrophes. And blame an unfeeling God for our plight eh?

How are you Potemkin? Are you going to ask me questions?

[Tainari88]

It's funny you mention Rwanda, since back in the day the world had the experience of watching Hutus hack Tutsis to death on the news. And indeed, no one did anything. Is that your proposed approach? Should we follow it every time, everywhere?

And actually, yes, I'd advice the Thais to do away with their monarchy if it doesn't work. Maybe they will, depending on how the current king does.

Hell, I'd even advice getting rid of monarchies altogether, but I understand the system works for some countries.

I also think ultimately this is actually the Nicaraguans' (and Venezuelans') fault for voting the likes of Ortega and Chávez to begin with. I feel sorry for them but this fact alone also makes me less prone to want to solve their problems for them.

What consequence would you give to the US for backing dictators on the Right mostly around the world? After they always spout about being lovers of self-determination and democracy? There aren't any monarchies in the Americas. None.
No, the US said they would protect the people in harm's way from brutality and genocide. Democracy and human rights. They did not intervene in Rwanda. Why not? They had no skin in the game there. But they did in oil rich nations or in nations where there is an economic interest. That is obvious. Again you missed my point about Rwanda. If they were moral they would have sent boots on the ground to stop the massacre. They did not. Why? Intervene not to manipulate and control. Intervene to serve and to protect. End of the story. Not hard to understand my angle.

Rancid, the DR and Haiti had a rough time of it historically. Espanola was one island with two nations on it. And Haiti and the DR have had rivalries and had to hammer out accords. In the end? The Dominican people had to be resilient and they had to work, invest time and energy into their own society. The Caribbean has a rough history and it is a study as Williams wrote in being pawns in the Cockpit of power politics in Europe.

The time for that kind of manipulation is done. Got to concentrate on dealing with droughts, climate change, and diseases being increasingly a threat because the permafrost is going to release a lot of trapped viruses and bacteria. Some have not been seen since the Ice Age. No time for thinking hubris has a place for peace in politics.

Potemkin is right. Putin is just a brutal null. He doesn't have any real aspiration to become a new version of a right-wing national union. He wants to just expand his power. Raw violent power. But since he has nukes and he doesn't care about the threat as long as he gets his way? He is going to continue.

He might wind up dead. A power vacuum ensues and who knows what will happen with the confrontation in Europe?

[Unthinking Majority]

I guess the idea is, you shouldn't have to ask for anything specific from them.

If all/most/part of Latin America is ok with being a Russian puppet, and let's Russia do whatever it wants and meddle around Latin America, then so be it. It's up to Latin Americans to kickout the Russians (of course they won't, but it would be up to them.) If a conflict arises, it will once again be another Russian war of aggression. We can properly smack them down then. Recall, Russia is no where near as strong as the USSR was. They are going through a demographic collapse. Russia simply cannot wage/sustain a second cold war long term. Nor could they sustain a hot war on another continent.

There is no need for the US to counter by doing exactly what Russia is doing. Instead, foster good relations. Russia has proven itself a paper bear with a downward trajectory anyway.

I dunno. The US has screwed up relations with no many Latin American countries, it will take a long time to repair.

I just can't see the US letting Russia station troops in Nicaragua, which is on the US's doorstep. They would rather pull a Ukraine in Nicaragua.

Anyways, this is not a good development either way. Putin is going to cause WW3. He's so stupid.

[Beren]

Ortega should be careful because unlike Putin he could be sent to the Hague.

[Rancid]

I just can't see the US letting Russia station troops in Nicaragua, which is on the US's doorstep.

Perhaps. Has there been any sort of statement from the US on this?

[wat0n]

What consequence would you give to the US for backing dictators on the Right mostly around the world? After they always spout about being lovers of self-determination and democracy? There aren't any monarchies in the Americas. None.
No, the US said they would protect the people in harm's way from brutality and genocide. Democracy and human rights. They did not intervene in Rwanda. Why not? They had no skin in the game there. But they did in oil rich nations or in nations where there is an economic interest. That is obvious. Again you missed my point about Rwanda. If they were moral they would have sent boots on the ground to stop the massacre. They did not. Why? Intervene not to manipulate and control. Intervene to serve and to protect. End of the story. Not hard to understand my angle.

Did I say they did? No, I did not. The US is advancing its interests just like every state does.

It did sometimes leave good things after the fact, whether you like it or not, but that was incidental to the overarching motivation of advancing its own interest.

That's more than what most can say, Putin included.

[Igor Antunov]

Perhaps. Has there been any sort of statement from the US on this? :?:

No doubt happening behind closed doors.

Erdogan is meeting Putin again soon. Interesting given they met recently after which Turkey started blocking swedish/finnish nato prospects. I'm thinking US will do a flip on scandinavia in return for Russia not to build missile bases in nicaragua. A handful of kalibr cruise missiles directed at a few panama canal ship locks and the US east/west coast shipborne container trade is devastated for years to come.

Alternative for US is another highly unpopular regime change occupation in Nicaragua. However they have to do it fast before Russians arrive. Once Russians arrived in Venezuela Us had to deal with the Chavez regime and its consequences.

The spiciest consequence? Putin will have to trade American backed kurdish areas of syria to Turkey. Assad will have to deal with it, won't affect his bottom line.

Also the union state project is completed as of today, ALL economic and political proposals have been signed and ratified by both Belarus and Russia, after 20 years of efforts. As far as you chaps are concerned, Belarus is now Russian clay.

[Potemkin]

Birth pangs of a new and better world? Ay Potemkin. The birth of a new and better world is about the same concepts I covered in this thread. Equality and respect.

Did you read 'The Conquest of New Iberia" by Bernal Diaz del Castillo Penguin edition? The chronicler from Andalucia for Hernan Cortez?

The Spanish truly did not want to march on to an unknown world with unknown challenges. But Cortez burned all those ships in Veracruz. because he knew his ass was grass if he went back to Havana....

He had La Malinche translating for him.

And strange animals from Europe and Asia...called horses. And swords and muskets. But what brought down the Aztecs was their treatment of their neighbors and their lack of resistance to European diseases. A catastrophe of microscopic sizes. Sort of like pandemics. Disease and conspiracies from disgruntled neighbors and tribes, who had to be giving the Aztecs their due or suffer the consequences....hmmm. Hubris does make an appearance.

How as humans we rarely see the flaws that are quite clear in the past and in the present eh? We just wait for catastrophes. And blame an unfeeling God for our plight eh?

How are you Potemkin? Are you going to ask me questions?

Not bad at all, @Tainari88 - only three hours to go before I officially wake up. Lol.

I’ve read Prescott’s book (which is very well written but incredibly dated), and a modern book on Cortez (whose author I forget) but not yet Bernal Diaz’ memoir. It’s been on my ‘to do’ list for a couple of decades. Maybe now’s the time, eh?

But historical progress is often painful and, in its immediate workings, brutal and unjust. Very often, human blood is the oil which lubricates the engine of history. This brutality and injustice leads to internal contradictions in the ‘new world’ which has been created, which in turn leads to further conflict and change, which leads to more suffering and brutality, and so on. But slowly, little by little, step by step, progress is being made….

[Beren]

I'm thinking US will do a flip on scandinavia in return for Russia not to build missile bases in nicaragua. A handful of kalibr cruise missiles directed at a few panama canal ship locks and the US east/west coast shipborne container trade is devastated for years to come.

Well, if I were Putin, I'd ask them to give up on Ukraine completely for not doing so much harm for them.

[Godstud]

So now Russia is invading Nicaragua? That makes sense.

Well... it makes as much sense as them invading Ukraine.