[noemon]

As for point 1, Armenia occupied large areas of Azerbaijan itself in 1988 by military force, and engaged in ethnic cleansing of Azeris. Hence the alleged ‘complexity’ of the issue.

And as for point 2, I think @Rugoz was referring to Nagorno-Karabakh rather than the ‘Zangezur corridor’.

The basic problem is that Armenia and Azerbaijan seem to be entangled with each other, just as Russia and Ukraine are and just as many of the Balkan states are. During Soviet times, this didn’t matter of course, but as soon as Gorbachev lifted the repressive hand of Soviet power, the genie was out of the bottle….

One of the main reason why Greeks have been paranoid about "Macedonia" is because Macedonia(the totality of it, that is Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian) was also one of those communist projects. Yugoslavia after severing the Serbian province of Vardarska from itself and renaming it to "the Republic of Macedonia" it sought to "integrate" both Bulgarian and Greek Macedonias with war of course into its "Macedonia Project". Greek communists were in agreement and had they been succesful, Macedonia would now be one of those mangled enclaves at war. Both Greece and Bulgaria would have had the same experience as Yugoslavia, Ukraine, Georgia and Armenia. Thankfully that was a near-miss. "Good thing" then that our British friends made sure we got a taste of that experience in Cyprus & Istanbul.

Now that these issues are erupting like spider bite boils and have been since 1991(the same year the "Macedonian issue" became part of modern Greek politics), Greek people are no longer looking like the crazies that people like Rugoz used to call us "ultra-nationalists" from what I recall, and you too in the beginning.

Fun fact the right wing conservative Prime Minister of Greece who sought to make a deal in 1991, had his government collapse immediately as his FM and other ministers resigned, the next socialist PASOK government that took over in 1992/1993 imposed a total embargo on the "Republic of Macedonia" until it changed its constitution, bank notes, street names and what have you and forced it to sign a treaty that was eventually fully implemented just a few years ago in 2017 but on whose basis the whole deal has taken place.

Communists went as far as creating entirely new national historiographies & museums for the provinces they cut and sewn back together. After all, there was only the "Soviet man".

Anyhow, I do not see why any of us in the western world should give a toss about what the communists did or go along with it.

Stalin made a personal decision to gift Armenia's Artsakh to Azerbaijan, I do not see why any of us should give any credence to his numpty decision in the present day.

[Fasces]

Azerbaijan claims soldier killed by sniper near Armenia border, Armenia denies

An Azerbaijani soldier was killed by a sniper near the border with Armenia on Saturday, according to Azerbaijan’s defense ministry.

The ministry said in a press release that the Armenian army opened fire on the Azerbaijani army at noon on Saturday using sniper rifles.

CNN is not able to independently verity these claims.

[Rugoz]

There is no difference, legally speaking. Intimidation which causes people to flee is no different than violence which causes people to flee.

Legally speaking, if part of purposeful policy, yes.

It is exceedinly simple - the people living there today, are the victims of the crime today. A genocide in 1990 doesn't justify a counter-genocide in 2023.

Obviously not, but I think it matters for how a permanent solution would look like.

The issue is only 'complicated' when it is politically convenient - Europe is increasing its oil and gas purchases from Azerbaijan as they decouple from Russia and Turkey has its own issues, while being a NATO member. It is easy to look for excuses for why the West is justified to ignore the unfolding situation in the Caucausus. It didn't stop them from preaching a position of moral superiority in comparable situations such as Kurdistan or Kosovo. Complexity here is just a synonym for hypocrisy.

Yugoslavia is in Europe's backyard, Kurdistan and Azerbaijan are not. Besides, there are far more egregious examples of this, such as the Rwandan genocide.

[Rancid]

So should the US get involved or not get involved?

[B0ycey]

So should the US get involved or not get involved?

How can they get involved without contradicting itself? Serious question.

Also, they won't want to alienate Turkey. The US has put all its cards on Ukraine and unfortunately this will be ignored.

[noemon]

The US should have already recognized NK as Armenian a long time ago. Now it's too late for that but the US can still broker a lasting peace if it seriously tried to.

[Fasces]

Legally speaking, if part of purposeful policy, yes.

The Azerbaijani government deliberate cultivates anti-Armenian atttitudes, as I showed in links in the OP.

Yugoslavia is in Europe's backyard, Kurdistan and Azerbaijan are not.

Yet Europe and the US got directly involved in violation of Iraq's territorial integrity in the 1990s to prevent the collapse of the Kurdish pseudo-state and protect the interests of that minority group - a virtually identical situation to Nogorno, and in the same neighborhood.

So should the US get involved or not get involved?

The UN, ideally, should - and this is a situation where on paper a UN approved action is actually possible (Russia, USA, France, Britain, China) as theoretically all interest holders with veto power are 'against Armenian genocide'.

Russia, because Armenia is a member of the CSTO and a historic/former ally. Russia can't handle the assignment on its own because of Ukraine, but backing a UN force would prevent the CSTO from completely collapsing. The US, France and Britain - not only because they have recently accepted Armenian overtures to the West, but to be consistent with stated values of following a humanitarian liberal rules based order. China is the most ambivalent, but Iran sees Armenian territorial integrity as a necessity to maintain a land bridge with Russia and I doubt China would veto a chance to show off its shiny new toy soldiers in an uncontroversial way.

Deploying a UN backed forced to ensure that Armenian territorial integrity isn't violated isn't going to do any good for the 120,000 already displaced Armenians and the ethnic cleansing of the province but can prevent its escalation.

[Fasces]

Adding to the above, my big fear is that European political establishment and the US Democratic led Department of State do not want to be seen cooperating with Russia on anything, even on the cost of Armenia, because of the anti-Russian sentiment that is now prevalent among voters and leaders.

The tragic result of which is that the UN is basically broken because of Russia's actions in Ukraine.

[Rugoz]

Yet Europe and the US got directly involved in violation of Iraq's territorial integrity in the 1990s to prevent the collapse of the Kurdish pseudo-state and protect the interests of that minority group - a virtually identical situation to Nogorno, and in the same neighborhood.

"Virtually identical"? Saddam literally used chemical weapons on the Kurds.

[Fasces]

In your world, Rugoz, is there a right way and wrong way to genocide?

[MadMonk]

In your world, Rugoz, is there a right way and wrong way to genocide?

Right or wrong, no there isn't, but scale, context and method used matter.

Fuck them though. The West is willing to accept any fascist piece of shit as long as they don't challenge the existing order. Men like Erdoğan, Aliyev, Modi and al-Sisi can do no wrong in our eyes because they are now needed.

"He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch!". American foreign policy in a nutshell.

[Rugoz]

In your world, Rugoz, is there a right way and wrong way to genocide?

Killing and displacing people are certainly two different things in my mind.

Needless to say the Azerbaijani government would be fucked if it started gassing Armenians tomorrow. Hence it's a bad example for double standards.

I've already mentioned a far better one.

[wat0n]

There is no difference, legally speaking. Intimidation which causes people to flee is no different than violence which causes people to flee.

Hmm I would very much say there is. Civilians often flee war zones, does it mean there's been ethnic cleansing every time a state attacks another state and the civilians flee hostilities?

[Fasces]

Hmm I would very much say there is. Civilians often flee war zones, does it mean there's been ethnic cleansing every time a state attacks another state and the civilians flee hostilities?

Intentionality matters. The European Commission against Racism and Intolerance has documented the intentionality of xenophobic propoganda against Armenians common in Azeri discourse. The same European institutions defines ethnic cleansing as: "Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law."

Our main enemy is the Armenian lobby ... Armenia as a country is of no value. It is actually a colony, an outpost run from abroad, a territory artificially created on ancient Azerbaijani lands.

Azeri state policies, as discussed in this thread, the language used by senior leaders in the Azeri government, a history of racial pogroms aimed at Armenians, and the resulting attitudes of Azeri citizens are sufficient to me to demonstrate an intent to intimidate, which qualifies this as ethnic cleansing. The fact that this was preceded by blockades on food, gas and medical imports into the region - acts which disproportionately target civilian populations, not military ones - reinforces that. These people are fleeing at first opportunity because they expect targeted ethnic violence if they remain, and they are not wrong to think so. The fact that the refugees themselves say they felt intimidated and forced to leave reinforces that.

Why are we trying so hard to make excuses for this? What is the acceptable number of dead before you'd be comfortable calling it what it obviously is?

[Rich]

The eternal sunshine of the spotless liberal mind.

Here's some liberals setting the world to rights hunting down those evil German Nazis for their crimes against those innocent Italians. Some questions just don't seem to occur to the Liberal.

1 Italy weren't they on the other side in WW2 at one point?

2 Didn't Italy do a bit of fascism on the side themselves?

3 What about the Italian occupation of Libya? And what about their involvement in the Spanish Civil War? And what about the occupation of Albania and the invasion and occupation of Ethiopia, Yugoslavia and Greece?

4 Might not Italy have committed a few atrocities themsleves?

5 Why have I never heard of any Italian equivalent of the Nuremberg and Tokyo war crimes trials?

6 Shouldn't the Italians spend a little more time chasing Italian war criminals and little less on Germans?

Like West World's Hosts the Liberal mind is not darkened by inconvenient facts.

[Fasces]

UN team in Nagorno-Karabakh, a first in 30 years, as ethnic Armenians flee

A United Nations mission has arrived in Nagorno-Karabakh during a mass exodus of ethnic Armenians from the region after Azerbaijan recaptured the breakaway enclave last month.

An Azerbaijani presidency spokesman said the UN mission arrived in the region on Sunday morning, mainly to assess humanitarian needs.

The mission, led by a senior UN aid official, is the global body’s first access to the region in about 30 years.

Armenia has asked the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to order Azerbaijan to withdraw all its troops from civilian establishments in Nagorno-Karabakh and give the UN access.

The ICJ in February ordered Azerbaijan to ensure free movement through an area known as the Lachin Corridor leading to and from the region.

The World Health Organization on Sunday said well over 100,000 ethnic Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh had travelled to neighbouring Armenia.

UN Aid teams are a good sign, but the zone is depopulated - can't really assess the humanitarian needs of a population that is wholly somewhere else. At best they'll be providing services for Azeri settlers moving into the abandonded homes and communities left behind. UN peacekeepers are needed on the Armenian border, frankly.

For the folks saying that there is no evidence of Azeri intent against the Armenian community, I think the article reminds us of an interesting point - this escape comes after a year of economic and military blockade that was only alleviated a few months ago by ICJ order. There is no garauntee that without international pressure the Lachin Corridor would be available for these refugees. Nonetheless, a quick of the order shows that Azerbaijan has widely ignored the ruling - except for the provision that facilitates ethnic cleansing.

[Fasces]

UN Security Council approves sending a Kenya-led force to Haiti to fight violent gangs

Meanwhile

‘It’s a ghost town’: Unofficial UN Group arrives in Nagorno-Karabakh to find ethnic Armenians have fled - ‘What is left for the UN to monitor?’ asks one refugee who crossed the border to escape

[MadMonk]

https://x.com/HovhanNaz/status/1708874727421263996?s=20

The Russians are playing the same game, selling the Armenians down the river. One can almost believe that there are no good guys left.

[annatar1914]

https://x.com/HovhanNaz/status/1708874727421263996?s=20

The Russians are playing the same game, selling the Armenians down the river. One can almost believe that there are no good guys left.

@MadMonk :

Bullshit. Armenia brought a Russia hater in Pashinyan into office, who threw Artsakh under the bus himself and who laboured from the start to expell, not use, Russian troops. Pashinyan wants to end relationship with Russia and Iran, and this debacle is the result. Armenia needs to get rid of this traitor.

[wat0n]

Given the little resistance Azeri troops faced, I highly doubt this is reversible. Even if they withdraw from all towns and cities in the NK, why would ethnic Armenians ever go back? The precedent was already established.

I doubt many would have stayed even if both states had agreed to a deal on the matter.