[wat0n]

I can quote the article if you want. Or if you want other media outlets showing the same, I can do that too.

What does matter, is that RPGs were found in the hospital. That has specific legal consequences since it means they lost their special protections because they were used to store more weapons than just small arms and instead had to be treated like other civilian infrastructure. As such, they could be attacked as long as the incidental damage to civilians was lower than the expected concrete and direct military advantage of doing so, based on the information available to the IDF at the time. It is also possible those attacks were disproportionate i.e. that the expected concrete and direct military advantage of attacking them based on available intelligence at the time was not greater than the incidental damage to Gaza's civilian population, which would mean they were war crimes.

If you want to do that analysis in good faith, we can try, but keeping in mind that standard is vague and very subjective in practice, and that we'd be doing it based on incomplete information.

[Pants-of-dog]

Quote the article.

[late]

This is probably why no one wants to quote the text, either. Not exactly damning stuff here.

Diplomacy is not for the impatient.

This conflict has done enormous damage to the USA/Israel relationship. They no longer have control of the narrative, and there is passion among the young about the injustice.

This is just the beginning of the next chapter.

I see it as a good thing. The two countries are headed in very different directions. The longer this was allowed to grow, the worse the damage would be when the change happened.

This creates, at least in theory, the possibility of a meeting in the middle. But that won't happen soon. England made peace with Ireland. It was terribly hard, after generations of violence, but they pulled it off with a little help from a guy from Maine.

[wat0n]

@late those protests are way overblown. I've seen a couple already and there's always few people attending, despite living in a large and traditionally progressive city. This is also why their attempt to influence the primaries has largely failed. Younger people have also always been more critical of Israel, and tend to become pro-Israel as they age.

But, after this war, I agree many will want the US to play a much more active role in the peace process and seek an imposed solution that looks like an agreement, assuming Hamas is toppled from the government in Gaza. And I also think Israel will emerge weakened after this war, not just its reputation but (more importantly) economically and politically. Furthermore, the Palestinians will also be under much greater pressure to give concessions on their end as well.

Quote the article.

300 terrorists arrested, dozens killed in raid on Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital

RPG launcher found hidden next to hospital director's office alongside stockpiles of weapons on second day of IDF raid; Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists hiding in Gaza's largest medical facility

Yoav Zitun
Yoav Zitun | published: 03.19.24 | 16:31

Dozens of terrorists have been killed and around 300 others arrested by Israeli forces in Gaza City's Al Shifa Hospital since the IDF launched a raid on the Gaza Strip's largest medical facility, the army reported Tuesday evening.

New documentation from the scene reveals weapons including an RPG anti-tank missile launcher, an AK-47 rifle, cartridges and bullets discovered in an office next to the hospital director's.

The raid on the hospital in western Gaza City is being led by a 401st Brigade combat team, in cooperation with Shayetet 13 and Duvdevan Unit forces under the command of the 162nd Division and the Shin Bet.

"During the raid, we identified terrorists hiding in this area. We managed to eliminate several terrorists and find many weapons in the area. We will continue the operation until we finish it well and eliminate all the terrorists in the area," 932nd Battalion Commander Lt. Col. Dotan said.

The forces arrested dozens of prominent Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists at the hospital who were involved in directing terrorist activity in the West Bank, active in propaganda efforts and part of Islamic Jihad's rocket unit, the IDF said.

The suspects are being interrogated on-site by field investigators from Unit 504 of the Intelligence Corps and are subsequently taken for further investigation by the unit and the Shin Bet in Israel.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians reported Tuesday evening that Nuseirat police chief Abu Al-Nour Al-Bayoumi was killed in an Israeli airstrike near the central Gaza Strip refugee camp’s UNRWA headquarters alongside several other people.

According to reports, Hamas had tasked the refugee camp’s police chief with securing humanitarian aid truck convoys en route to Gaza City in the territory’s north.

Additionally, Gaza’s Liberators, a group opposing Hamas in Gaza, said that "Hamas police in Nuseirat had seized an aid truck, and the IDF attacked them from the air."

The IDF Spokesperson's Unit reported earlier on Tuesday that Warrant Officer (res.) Sebastian Haion, 51, from Rosh Haayin, a commander in the 401st Brigade, fell in clashes against terrorists in the Al Shifa Hospital.

On Monday, Staff Sergeant Matan Vinogradov, 20, a soldier from the Nahal Brigade's 932nd Battalion, from Jerusalem, was killed in fighting at the hospital.

During the raid on the hospital, many weapons and terrorist funds were found that were intended to be distributed to terrorist operatives from Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The raid revealed envelopes filled with cash, marked "Congratulations on the effort," meant for terrorists.

"The place that Hamas terrorists thought was their hiding place and safe place quickly became a death trap in the Al Shifa area," Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said on Monday.

"In this process, we took another step toward dismantling Hamas, another brick, another blow. It will continue and intensify until we eliminate the Hamas organization and everything it represents. There will be no military rule and there will be no capability of a Hamas military force in the Gaza Strip. It will take as long as it takes, we will eliminate this evil."

Typical of what one could expect from media of a country currently in war.

[late]

@late those protests are way overblown.

Turnout for Vietnam protests (here in Maine) was disappointing. Stayed that way for years. And then, shortly before Nixon left office, I looked behind me and as far as I could see, there were people filling the avenue, and I could see 3/4 of a mile.

Patience.

[wat0n]

Turnout for Vietnam protests (here in Maine) was disappointing. Stayed that way for years. And then, shortly before Nixon left office, I looked behind me and as far as I could see, there were people filling the avenue, and I could see 3/4 of a mile.

Patience.

Well, I doubt this war will last as long as Vietnam did.

[late]

Well, I doubt this war will last as long as Vietnam did.

It's already lasted a lot longer.

[Pants-of-dog]

As we can see, there is one mention of an RPG being found in an office. It seems unlikely that this is any more credible than the small arms cache the IDF placed in the MRI room.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog sounds like, again, you don't like the facts and hence deny them.

It's just religious for you at this point.

[Pants-of-dog]

There is no indication that this RPG was used in the defense during the raid. It is illogical to have a weapon and not use it, which suggests that this is a plant.

Considering the fact that the previous cache was a plant, this would be consistent with past experience.

The fact that no news outlets other than Israeli ones are carrying this story suggests that there has been no independent verification.

The fact that the IDF is the one who found them also suggests a plant, since they are the ones on the hook if there were no weapons found,

And the fact that the IDF has verifiably misleading information on their website about Shifa hospital shows that they are not a good source.

Feel free to ignore all this and focus on personal attacks instead. It makes my argument look stronger.

[wat0n]

Mere storage of RPGs in a hospital is not just a war crime but also turns them into military objects.

Arms depots are valid military targets.

The fact that the IDF found them makes sense since it's the only one looking for them and exposing them to the public.

It is also not true the story has only been in Israeli media.

Your claim now just reduces to an ad-hominem, which is a logical fallacy.

[Pants-of-dog]

I do not think mere storage does that. If that were the case, any instance of someone equipped with an RPG seeking medical care would be considered the same as someone actually shooting from inside the hospital, so that seems like one of those misuses of terminology addressed by the genocide paper.

Also, the India Today article contradicts the Y Net news article, claiming the weapons were found in a vehicle, not in the hospital.

[wat0n]

Yes, mere storage does that.

Destroying arms storages is an act harmful to the enemy.

The India Times article refers to the RPGs found in the first Shifa raid. The Ynet article refers to the RPGs found in the second one.

[Pants-of-dog]

So, one counter argument is based on a misreading of law and the other is an article about an admittedly different event.

[wat0n]

No, it's not a misreading of the law.

This sounds like a tantrum now that you were presented with evidence of being wrong.

The fact that Hamas and the other armed groups placed RPGs in Al Shifa not one but two times now should tell you a lot about their shielding tactics.

[Pants-of-dog]

The misreading, in this case, is the confusion between using a hospital as a weapons depot for continued storage and simply having a weapon lying around that was removed from a patient and happens to be lying in a corner while the patient is on a gurney.

Having an RPG in a car parked somewhere on the complex is, for example, not permanent storage since cars are designed to move. This, it would be a misreading to define this as a weapons depot.

[wat0n]

Yeah, I guess some of those fighters just needed to take their emotional support RPG to the hospitals

[Pants-of-dog]

There is a war going on.

People use RPGs in wars.

They also run the risk of being shot in a war.

If someone with an RPG were to seek medical help in a hospital, the hospital would not immediately lose its protection as soon as the RPG was in the neighbourhood.

[wat0n]

There is a war going on.

People use RPGs in wars.

They also run the risk of being shot in a war.

If someone with an RPG were to seek medical help in a hospital, the hospital would not immediately lose its protection as soon as the RPG was in the neighbourhood.

The hospital would actually lose its special protection as soon as the RPG is within the compound. It would instead be treated like any other civilian infrastructure should.

The Geneva Conventions are explicit that the only acts harmful to the enemy that do not make a hospital lose its special protection is to serve wounded combatants as long as they only keep small arms with them.

The fact that a hospital would lose its special protection also does not mean it has no protections at all. It only means that any attacks on it would be subject to the usual proportionality requirements. It might as well be the case that the raids in Shifa are still illegal, but it's not obvious that they are since the conditions laid out in the GC for the loss of special protection were fulfilled.

[Pants-of-dog]

Again, thus is a misreading.