[wat0n]

1) Looks like I was talking about the other half...

That already puts Israel ahead in the use of precision guided munitions.

2) Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on Earth. You drop a 2 ton dumb bomb on a building, you are going to kill a lot of people. A lot of people left northern Gaza, a lot couldn't leave. That's how one gets close to Nazi levels of civilian deaths.

Precision bombing won't help with that. Mosul is also densely populated and even light bombs proved very destructive (and ineffective at killing ISIS fighters).

3) That's Whataboutism.

Not really. It shows that urban warfare will still lead to thousands of civilian casualties, even if taking all feasible measures to avoid them. Worse, these measures can actually lead to more and not less destruction.

And this comes from an American bombing done by a Dem President, the one you're holding up as the standard to follow right now.

You keep trying to avoid the obvious.

Doesn't work, does it...

Cope.

[late]

1) That already puts Israel ahead in the use of precision guided munitions.

2) Precision bombing won't help with that.

3) And this comes from an American bombing done by a Dem President, the one you're holding up as the standard to follow right now.

1) No, it doesn't. They dropped 2 ton dumb bombs on civilians, killing thousands.

2) It can, and in this instance, indications are that it did.

3) You are a layer cake of goofball. Standard to follow?? Protecting the seas has been policy since the end of WW2, but it goes back to Jefferson sending the marines to deal with the pirates at Tripoli.

You could argue that his policy towards Israel was a mistake, and contributed to the escalation of the conflict. If you didn't screw it up, I'd even agree with you..

[wat0n]

1) No, it doesn't. They dropped 2 ton dumb bombs on civilians, killing thousands.

Yes, it does.

Many armies don't have that much stock of precision munitions.

The 2 ton bunker buster bombs used by Israel and the US are not dumb bombs.

2) It can, and in this instance, indications are that it did.

Not really. It seems most targets were not in civilian areas to begin with. We're talking about airstrips, radars, missile installations and similar targets.

We'll have to wait and see if it becomes necessary to expand the campaign to hit targets inside cities.

3) You are a layer cake of goofball. Standard to follow?? Protecting the seas has been policy since the end of WW2, but it goes back to Jefferson sending the marines to deal with the pirates at Tripoli.

You could argue that his policy towards Israel was a mistake, and contributed to the escalation of the conflict. If you didn't screw it up, I'd even agree with you..

When America needs to bomb targets located in cities, regardless of the overall goal of the campaign, this invariably leads to many civilian casualties - as it happened in Mosul.

I don't understand what's so hard to grasp here.

[Negotiator]

The Biden administration really can do nothing but fail and then double down on failure.

I really have to point out that both Obama and Trump probably would have negotiated. Talked with people. Tried to find a compromise. At very least tried to calm the situation down. Like the USA has always done in the past. Both Obama and Trump knew how to do diplomacy, and have done it.

Biden instead handed Netanjahu the carte blanche to do whatever he wants in Gaza, and he's now paying the price for that. People all over the world are angry over the genocide in Gaza. People in the near east are only even more angry than the rest of the world over this. Both the USA and Israel are getting into more and more trouble.

And Saudi Arabia had a war with Jemen for how many years ? And Saudi Arabia recently has acquired a really strong military, one of the strongest in the world. So what will some more illegal bombings by the USA archieve, exactly ? Jemen is used to that. This wont stop the blockade. Not even by a long shot. Not even by the longest shot.

Gaza urgently needs a ceasefire. The situation there is absolutely horrible now. The USA should really finally stop blocking this.

Instead the USA very likely will double down on failure again, and may even start a war with Iran. Which would have already been a doomed enterprise in the past. Even Trump was wise enough to not do that. But now the USA has drained its military resources in Ukraine, and since Jan 1 Iran is part of BRICS. I'm sure that will increase the chances for the USA !

[Rugoz]

I really have to point out that both Obama and Trump probably would have negotiated. Talked with people. Tried to find a compromise. At very least tried to calm the situation down. Like the USA has always done in the past. Both Obama and Trump knew how to do diplomacy, and have done it.

US foreign policy towards Israel has always been irrational and against US interests. Obama and Trump did not change that.

[annatar1914]

@annatar1914 if the Houthis are deterred and stop messing with maritime trade, the mission will have been a success.

If you believe they should be destroyed, this should fall on who one would think is most interested in doing so, although I would supply them with arms to do so.

@wat0n :

If.

The Saudis will ultimately call upon their Blue-Eyed Slave Mamelukes to carry out the work. That's the way it is.

[Istanbuller]

Calculated moves by the US. They did this to divert attention from Israel's aggression on Gaza.

[late]

The 2 ton bunker buster bombs used by Israel...


Not really. It seems most targets were not in civilian areas to begin with.


When America needs to bomb targets located in cities, regardless of the overall goal of the campaign, this invariably leads to many civilian casualties - as it happened in Mosul.

I don't understand what's so hard to grasp here.

"In the first month of its war in Gaza, Israel dropped hundreds of massive bombs, many of them capable of killing or wounding people more than 1,000 feet away, analysis by CNN and artificial intelligence company Synthetaic suggests." (IOW, not bunker busters)
https://www.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html


You accidentally agreed with me there..

Sometimes we obey the rules.

No sh*t.

[wat0n]

@annatar1914 given the Houthis are unable to hit in Western territory, I doubt the US et al will be willing to put boots on the ground.

"In the first month of its war in Gaza, Israel dropped hundreds of massive bombs, many of them capable of killing or wounding people more than 1,000 feet away, analysis by CNN and artificial intelligence company Synthetaic suggests." (IOW, not bunker busters)
https://www.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html


You accidentally agreed with me there..

Sometimes we obey the rules.

No sh*t.

That is what CNN and others claimed initially, just like they claimed Al Ahli was bombed by Israel and killed 471 people, but it seems those 2 ton bombs were bunker busters.

[KurtFF8]

They are what we once called a proxy. They exist largely due to money and support from Iran, and the attacks are something Iran wants.

The oil rich countries are mostly Sunni, Iran is Shia. ISIS is Sunni.

When we took out Saddam Hussein, we took out the buffer between Iran and the Saudi. Iran has a lot of influence in Iraq now. Anyway, the point is that the Saudi are useless at anything they can't buy. They've been fighting guys that are poor and badly armed. The Saudi guys are mercenaries with really good equipment. The actual fighters don't have a dog in the fight, so they attack civilians. Ugly business.

So the 2 are quite different, but they have similarities. They both exist because they are funded by opposite sides in the struggle to dominate the ME.

Pretty much everything you've said here demonstrates how the Houthi militant forces are distinct from ISIS. For example, ISIS is not a proxy for any regional power as the Houthis have been accused of being.

I'm not aware of the Houthis carrying out any kind of similar tactics that ISIS has. The Houthi forces are part of a general internal struggle in Yemen, which cannot be said of ISIS which wants to establish a region wide caliphate. I don't see anything indicating that the Houthis have anything remotely resembling that kind of goal.

So your comparison of them to ISIS just match the reality.

[wat0n]

What is the Houthis' motto, @KurtFF8?

[late]

Pretty much everything you've said here demonstrates how the Houthi militant forces are distinct from ISIS. For example, ISIS is not a proxy for any regional power as the Houthis have been accused of being.

I'm not aware of the Houthis carrying out any kind of similar tactics that ISIS has. The Houthi forces are part of a general internal struggle in Yemen, which cannot be said of ISIS which wants to establish a region wide caliphate. I don't see anything indicating that the Houthis have anything remotely resembling that kind of goal.

So your comparison of them to ISIS just match the reality.

It's simply on the other side of the sectarian conflict. Like Iran's proxies, it gets funding.

ISIS changed over the years, not sure, but my impression is that it's not all that different now.

[annatar1914]

@annatar1914 given the Houthis are unable to hit in Western territory, I doubt the US et al will be willing to put boots on the ground.



That is what CNN and others claimed initially, just like they claimed Al Ahli was bombed by Israel and killed 471 people, but it seems those 2 ton bombs were bunker busters.

@wat0n :

The West cannot allow Islamist savages to dictate geopolitics and divert shipping vital to maintenance of civilization. Last time that happened it resulted in the Dark Ages in Europe in the wake of the Islamic conquest of the Middle East and North Africa. Then later, the Ottoman Empire constricted trade leading to the forced Western discovery of the New World. After over 500 years that Western wealth and capital from that discovery has now been used up, and Islam sits on the last of the easily recoverable oil in the world.

We're back to where and when this all started.

[wat0n]

@wat0n :

The West cannot allow Islamist savages to dictate geopolitics and divert shipping vital to maintenance of civilization. Last time that happened it resulted in the Dark Ages in Europe in the wake of the Islamic conquest of the Middle East and North Africa. Then later, the Ottoman Empire constricted trade leading to the forced Western discovery of the New World. After over 500 years that Western wealth and capital from that discovery has now been used up, and Islam sits on the last of the easily recoverable oil in the world.

We're back to where and when this all started.

It's not, though. It seems the West aims to destroy the Houthis' ability to do that and deter them from doing it again.

The ultimate defeat of the Houthis, however, isn't in the cards. That would require a ground war that the West won't fight on behalf of Saudi Arabia.

[annatar1914]

It's not, though. It seems the West aims to destroy the Houthis' ability to do that and deter them from doing it again.

The ultimate defeat of the Houthis, however, isn't in the cards. That would require a ground war that the West won't fight on behalf of Saudi Arabia.

@wat0n :

It appears that your two comments are mutually contradictory. I don't doubt that this reflects the feckless incoherency of Western elites in dealing with modern hypercomplexity, but it means that this leadership will lose and be replaced.

[wat0n]

@wat0n :

It appears that your two comments are mutually contradictory. I don't doubt that this reflects the feckless incoherency of Western elites in dealing with modern hypercomplexity, but it means that this leadership will lose and be replaced.

How is it feckless?

It's just deterrence.

One thing the West will do is shut up about Saudi Arabia intervening in Yemen, and will send it arms instead. It's how proxy warfare works.

[annatar1914]

How is it feckless?

It's just deterrence.

One thing the West will do is shut up about Saudi Arabia intervening in Yemen, and will send it arms instead. It's how proxy warfare works.

@wat0n

The House of Saud thought that that option would work, and it didn't. They'll get their man Trump in the White House and the boots will be on the ground, as there are no other options than regional war. There's no reason to waffle or whine about it, soon the " delaying of the decision" as Carl Schmidt put it will be over and war between Iran and her allies with the West and Israel will be a reality.

[KurtFF8]

What is the Houthis' motto, @KurtFF8?

Not relevant.

It's simply on the other side of the sectarian conflict. Like Iran's proxies, it gets funding.

ISIS changed over the years, not sure, but my impression is that it's not all that different now.

It's not actually that simple, if it were: then the politics of the region would be pretty straight forward. But there are a lot of factors that make the Houthi's fundamentally different from a group like ISIS.

[wat0n]

@KurtFF8 I would say the Houthis' motto is very much relevant if one wishes to understand their goals.

@wat0n

The House of Saud thought that that option would work, and it didn't. They'll get their man Trump in the White House and the boots will be on the ground, as there are no other options than regional war. There's no reason to waffle or whine about it, soon the " delaying of the decision" as Carl Schmidt put it will be over and war between Iran and her allies with the West and Israel will be a reality.

I don't really see thing happening unless Iran intervened directly on behalf of the Houthis.

[annatar1914]

Some of you might begin to understand the situation:

Some of you will refuse to see.

Edit:

Optics on this don't look too good either: