[Rugoz]

Even if the majority still want that, it will not matter if the rights of the minority are infringed upon - I think many people right now even say that Crimea and Luhansk & Donetsk never actually wanted separation from Ukraine and it is Russian propaganda that they want to be Russian, yet the Russians still used the existing friction points to acquire them.

Yes, it's interesting how effective Russian propaganda has been in propagating that myth. I think it's because many people actually do think language and national identity are inseparable.

[Rugoz]

Yes, it's interesting how effective Russian propaganda has been in propagating that myth. I think it's because many people actually do think language and national identity are inseparable.

I should add: Crimea is different. Here at least one can make the case that a majority could have been in favor.

Below an interesting excerpt. It also shows how fickle public opinion was on the issue:

However, some other studies argued that separatism retained a significant popularity in Crimea and that its potential secession remained a possibility (Katchanovski, 2006). For example, the 2001 Razumkov Center survey showed that 50 per cent of the respondents in Crimea favoured their region becoming a part of Russia, and an additional 9 per
cent preferred to see their region as an independent state (calculated from Krym, 2001). The separatist preferences
in Crimea increased significantly after the ‘Orange Revolution’ in 2004 brought a pro-Western and nationalist
president, Viktor Yushchenko, to power. Viktor Yanukovych, a relatively pro-Russian presidential candidate, failed to
gain power in Ukraine through the falsification of the election results, but he received overwhelming backing in the
region.

In the 2008 Razumkov Center survey, conducted soon after the Russian-Georgian war following an attempt by the
Georgian government to seize the de-facto independent secessionist region of South Ossetia, 73 per cent of the
Crimeans, who made their minds on this issue, backed the secession of Crimea from Ukraine with a goal of joining
Russia (calculated from AR Krym, 2008). In this survey, 85 per cent of ethnic Russians, 65 per cent of ethnic
Ukrainians, and 17 per cent of the Crimean Tatars wanted their region to secede from Ukraine (calculated from AR
Krym, 2008). When asked separately in the same survey, 47 per cent of the respondents in Crimea, including 49 per
cent of ethnic Russians, 45 per cent of ethnic Ukrainians, and 39 per cent of the Crimean Tatars, favoured the
independence of Crimea. The 2008 Razumkov Center survey showed that 59 per cent of the Crimean Tatars
supported Crimea becoming a Crimean Tatar national autonomy in Ukraine. Separately, 33 per cent of the Crimean
Tatars backed the unification of Crimea with Turkey.

However, the outright secessionist preferences in Crimea declined afterwards, and they were expressed by 38 per
cent of the respondents in the 2009 Razumkov Center poll. Thirty per cent voiced such views in the 2011 Razumkov
Center poll after Yanukovych won the 2010 presidential election with promises of closer political and economic
cooperation with Russia and making Russian the second state language in Ukraine (Iakist, 2011, p. 27). The 2011
Razumkov Centre survey showed that combined support for joining Russia and independence of Crimea decreased
among ethnic Ukrainians to 25 per cent, from 35 per cent, in 2009. Attitudes of ethnic Russians demonstrated a
similar decline of separatist preferences to 35 per cent from 43 per cent. Such separatist attitudes among the
Crimean Tatars remained the same in 2011 (28 per cent), compared to 2009 (27 per cent), but their support for
joining Turkey increased from 4 per cent in 2009 to 21 per cent in 2011 (Razumkov Center, 2011, p. 27).

Polls indicated that pro-Russian separatism in Crimea had significant but minority support during the Euromaidan.
The absolute majority of Crimeans backed the Yanukovych government and opposed the Euromaidan, which started
as a mass protest against backtracking by the Yanukovych government on the association and free trade agreement
with the European Union, and then turned into the anti-government protest and a rebellion in western and a number
of central regions.

https://www.e-ir.info/pdf/54893

[Rancid]

I think it's because many people actually do think language and national identity are inseparable.

Humans are very tribal. This is also why the bullshit historical arguments are effective as well.

[KurtFF8]

International law allows countries to protect their interests.

So while it is violent conflict, it's intent is to dissuade. Which means it's defensive in intent.

If we go to war against Yemen, it won't be pretty..

It's bizarre to appeal to international law when nations actually have an obligation to prevent genocide. So if we're to measure international law and the actors involved, you could make the argument that this group in Yemen is also enforcing international law norms.

You said that NATO and EU overlap. They don't in Cyprus. The US has had an arms embargo against Cyprus for decades to "satisfy" Turkey.

Only recently the embargo was lifted from Cyprus and placed on Turkey instead by Pompeo I believe, and even more recently the embargo on Turkey was lifted by Biden who used Cypriot and Greek national security as carrots for Sweden's NATO membership. Carrots should be American carrots and not undermine the national security of others.

Another very naughty thing to do.

I said that they largely do, obviously there are some exceptions and unique cases. And even in this exception of Cyprus, the West is still using them as a base to launch an aggressive war against Yemen.

[late]

It's bizarre to appeal to international law when nations actually have an obligation to prevent genocide. So if we're to measure international law and the actors involved, you could make the argument that this group in Yemen is also enforcing international law norms.

It's incorrect to say what we are doing in Yemen is genocide.

That may not have been your intent, but in your attempt to force the point, you were unclear.

Yemen does not have the imprimatur to intervene in the conflict in Gaza. They also lack the means to do that. What they are doing is attacking random ships, which is piracy.

[wat0n]

You are completely right, but it still remains a potential flashpoint because we know that there are potentialities for them to be subjected to violence from thugs - like what happened at the Odessa trade union, and what also is happening at some of the churches that remain in line with the Moscow Patriarchate.

Even if the majority still want that, it will not matter if the rights of the minority are infringed upon - I think many people right now even say that Crimea and Luhansk & Donetsk never actually wanted separation from Ukraine and it is Russian propaganda that they want to be Russian, yet the Russians still used the existing friction points to acquire them.

Well, if the rights of the minority are truly being infringed upon (and it's not just Russian propaganda) it's unlikely Ukraine will be able to join the EU to begin with.

[noemon]

I said that they largely do, obviously there are some exceptions and unique cases. And even in this exception of Cyprus, the West is still using them as a base to launch an aggressive war against Yemen.

Cyprus went to war to get rid of the British sovereign airbase.

Your ignorance is quite exceptional.

[Unthinking Majority]

It logically follows from your statement "Russia has no right to annex".

Noone challenges the right of Kossovo to be chopped off a Serbian province.

But they do challenge the right of the ethnic-Russians in Ukraine to self-determination even though these rights have been recognised to them by the international community and Ukraine under the Minsk agreements.

Kossovars had no such international rights recognised to them, but they did chop off sovereign Serbian provinces with US military & diplomatic support. Ethnic-Russians have such rights recognised to them officially internationally while Ukraine and the US are trying to deny them their recognised rights by military force.

It's all a bit too much in terms of hypocrisy. Apparently Russians have less rights than Albanians even though the Russian have international treaties backing those rights while the Albanians, nothing.

Self-determination rights arguably sure. That's different than Russian invading Crimea, holding an illegal vote by a conquering power while its citizens are under illegal military occupation, and then passing off the vote as legitimate with no oversight, then annexing them.

Ukraine knows Russia will never give Crimea back so why bother?

[noemon]

That's different than Russian invading Crimea, holding an illegal vote by a conquering power while its citizens are under illegal military occupation, and then passing off the vote as legitimate with no oversight, then annexing them.

Sure it's different, Russian went in to protect ethnic-Russians with clear rights established for them internationally in Minsk while the US went in Kossovo to "protect" Albanians.

Somehow the US chopping off Serbia for Albanians is considered valid while for Russia "things are different".



And they are different indeed, Russia has more internationally recognised rights in Crimea & Donbass than the US had in Kossovo.

[KurtFF8]

It's incorrect to say what we are doing in Yemen is genocide.

I didn't say that though.

Yemen does not have the imprimatur to intervene in the conflict in Gaza. They also lack the means to do that. What they are doing is attacking random ships, which is piracy.

False, what Yemen is doing is intervening to stop an ongoing genocide.

Cyprus went to war to get rid of the British sovereign airbase.

Your ignorance is quite exceptional.

How does this contradict anything I said?

Also what I said is true

The Cyprus government is facing growing criticism over British military bases on the island being used by UK and US forces to stage airstrikes on Iran-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen.

[noemon]

How does this contradict anything I said?

You're confusing Cyprus with Britain.

Also what I said is true

This is the same as "Cuba faces criticism for Gauntanamo".

On Tuesday, the Cyprus government’s spokesperson, Konstantinos Letymbiotis, emphasised the eastern Mediterranean island was not involved in any military operations, intimating that under the bases’ treaty of establishment, the UK was not obliged to inform Cypriot authorities about activity in the facilities. “The government is in constant communication with the UK within the framework established in relation to the bases’ use,” he said.

[Unthinking Majority]

Sure it's different, Russian went in to protect ethnic-Russians with clear rights established for them internationally in Minsk while the US went in Kossovo to "protect" Albanians.

Somehow the US chopping off Serbia for Albanians is considered valid while for Russia "things are different".



And they are different indeed, Russia has more internationally recognised rights in Crimea & Donbass than the US had in Kossovo.

I've never said anything about Serbia or Kosovo.

[noemon]

I've never said anything about Serbia or Kosovo.

It doesn't matter whether you said it or not.

What matters is that you are treating Russian self-determination as invalid while treating Albanian one as valid enough for you to either not care or to approve implicitly or explicitly.

[Unthinking Majority]

It doesn't matter whether you said it or not.

What matters is that you are treating Russian self-determination as invalid while treating Albanian one as valid enough for you to either not care or to approve implicitly or explicitly.

I hardly know anything about Albania or the Balkans or that situation. Not having a comment on it doesn't mean I implicitly approve, c'mon. If you want to compare them fine, just leave me out of it please.

[noemon]

You are the one calling Russia "different". Different against whom is the pertinent question.

[litwin]

Muscovite tsar pOOtin : “Sincerely speaking, I didn’t fully enjoy this (Carslon) interview,” I Post here your fav carslon-putin MEME, JOKE
POOtin actually said he expected more challenging questions

[late]

False, what Yemen is doing is intervening to stop an ongoing genocide.

They aren't working for the UN, there is no mandate.

They are also attacking ships at random. That has nothing to do with Gaza.

Which means saying it's false is BS. Now all you have to do is prove me wrong...

Which you can't do.

[KurtFF8]

They aren't working for the UN, there is no mandate.

They are also attacking ships at random. That has nothing to do with Gaza.

Which means saying it's false is BS. Now all you have to do is prove me wrong...

Which you can't do.

No country "works for the UN" so that's a non-point.

And while they certainly have made mistakes in their attacks (as most countries do in situations like this), they are specifically attacking shipping lanes to disrupt trade with Israel.

I've seen people here claim that it's piracy, but that's not quite what piracy means. They aren't in any way trying to confiscate these ships, they're trying to impose a blockade, and with very limited resources.

[Rugoz]

Self-determination rights arguably sure. That's different than Russian invading Crimea, holding an illegal vote by a conquering power while its citizens are under illegal military occupation, and then passing off the vote as legitimate with no oversight, then annexing them.

Right. The whole idea of Russia enforcing a people's right to self-determination makes no sense, since it has no intention to let people decide on the issue.

The only way a Russian intervention could arguably have been legitimate, from the point of view of self-determination, is if regional parliaments voted for secession and unification with Russia. But there was no relevant political party with such a program. I'm only aware of 2 parties: The Russian bloc, which got 0.31% of votes in the 2012 election, and Russian unity, which got 0.07%.

[late]

No country "works for the UN" so that's a non-point.

And while they certainly have made mistakes in their attacks (as most countries do in situations like this), they are specifically attacking shipping lanes to disrupt trade with Israel.

I've seen people here claim that it's piracy, but that's not quite what piracy means. They aren't in any way trying to confiscate these ships, they're trying to impose a blockade, and with very limited resources.

The UN has police actions, and observers, and aid people. Since they don't have a military, they have to have someone do police actions.

That's lame.

They aren't trying to do a blockade. What they are doing is trying to get ships to take a different course. Btw, attacking shipping is piracy:

"Piracy is an act of robbery or criminal violence..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy#Privateers

But, if they could rob, it is highly likely they would, or kidnap for ransom... they aren't exactly choirboys, and they have a history of kidnapping.