[Rancid]

Muscovite tsar pOOtin : “Sincerely speaking, I didn’t fully enjoy this (Carslon) interview,” I Post here your fav carslon-putin MEME, JOKE
POOtin actually said he expected more challenging questions

The thing about the second image is that basically the American Right that supports Putin believes a few things about Puitn.

- He is a godly/christian (he's not, religion is just a tool for him)
- Hates woke culture (I'm sure he does)
- Putin was sincere when he said this was all about NATO expansion (which wasn't on the table for Ukraine anyway... or sweden... or findland..)

Tucker was hoping that Putin would feed into this line of thinking since it would reinforce the American Right's perception of Putin. Instead, he went down his usual bad read of history as a justification.

I wonder why Tucker didn't make it into the CIA.

Anyway, there is this guy, Niel Anders Puck (Geopolitical analyst, wrote a book, but it's not translated to English, so I just watch occasional youtube videos from him). He was going over the idea of "what would be difficult questions for Putin?". He made a great point, which was, a better way to interview Putin (which no one will do of course), is to ask Putin questions that matter to the Russian public. Not to the European public, not to the American public, and not even to the Ukrainian public. At least not directly/specifically.

Questions like "How was it possible for Wagner to march on Moscow?" or "Why aren't mobilized troops getting leave?" or "It's been 2+years since you've started your SMO, do you feel it is a success?" Those are questions that would be more challenging to answer, and he probably couldn't rely on by falling back on his usual (bad) historical based points.

[litwin]

The thing about the second image is that basically the American Right that supports Putin believes a few things about Puitn.

- He is a godly/christian (he's not, religion is just a tool for him)
- Hates woke culture (I'm sure he does)
- Putin was sincere when he said this was all about NATO expansion (which wasn't on the table for Ukraine anyway... or sweden... or findland..)

Tucker was hoping that Putin would feed into this line of thinking since it would reinforce the American Right's perception of Putin. Instead, he went down his usual bad read of history as a justification.

I wonder why Tucker didn't make it into the CIA.

Anyway, there is this guy, Niel Anders Puck (Geopolitical analyst, wrote a book, but it's not translated to English, so I just watch occasional youtube videos from him). He was going over the idea of "what would be difficult questions for Putin?". He made a great point, which was, a better way to interview Putin (which no one will do of course), is to ask Putin questions that matter to the Russian public. Not to the European public, not to the American public, and not even to the Ukrainian public. At least not directly/specifically.

Questions like "How was it possible for Wagner to march on Moscow?" or "Why aren't mobilized troops getting leave?" or "It's been 2+years since you've started your SMO, do you feel it is a success?" Those are questions that would be more challenging to answer, and he probably couldn't rely on by falling back on his usual (bad) historical based points.

I wonder why Tucker didn't make it into the CIA.
+1, MANY our commie nuclear traitors got away with what they did , Tucker thinks i do for Moscow empire much less....

[Verv]

Well, if the rights of the minority are truly being infringed upon (and it's not just Russian propaganda) it's unlikely Ukraine will be able to join the EU to begin with.

I do not think that the EU values democracy - they value pluralism and postmodern liberalism.

These are not countries that respect the rights of free speech or free inquiry, and many of them have even normalized withholding valuable data on crime or achievement gaps based on race or immigrant background just to keep their own policies from being criticized.

While I do not approve of hyper-reactionary positions on these things, it's just so distasteful. You cannot entrust democracy and human rights to people that think of democracy & human rights as only expressed by the fulfillment of their own policy goals, and not through simply the practice of liberty in the public sphere by the citizenry.

So I am skeptical about the idea that the EU would try to safeguard the rights of the Russian minority... Especially when this is all clandestine trampling on them. Like, the Ukrainian government is not part of any official movement to hurt the Russian minority in an extralegal way, but there are connections between the CIA, the Ukrainain government, and the private hooligans that were mobilized to do these things.

... IDEALLY, ideally, none of this would be important because there would have been no coup in 2014 and the whole situation would just have been handled above board. But I think that was ultimately impossible just because of how corrupt the Ukraine was at this time.

[wat0n]

If anything, I would think that'd be a stronger argument for saying the EU wouldn't allow Ukraine to join if it oppressed its Russian minority, @Verv.

[Unthinking Majority]

Right. The whole idea of Russia enforcing a people's right to self-determination makes no sense, since it has no intention to let people decide on the issue.

The idea that Putin cares about "self-determination" for these people is absolutely ridiculous given what he has done to democracy in his own country over the years. He wants more power and to dominate, that's what he cares about.

[Verv]

Yes, it's interesting how effective Russian propaganda has been in propagating that myth. I think it's because many people actually do think language and national identity are inseparable.

What was persuasive to me was various sources pointing out that these areas just really had a lot of people who did not want to be part of the Ukraine at all, and just the fact that by immediately leaving the Ukraine and joining Russia they would have access to better services and a better economy, so it was no wonder...

Plus they were arbitrarily given to the Ukraine at different points - it is really the Western Ukraine that can be said to have some robust Ukrainian identity that takes on an ethnic and historical dimension, right.

[Verv]

The idea that Putin cares about "self-determination" for these people is absolutely ridiculous given what he has done to democracy in his own country over the years. He wants more power and to dominate, that's what he cares about.

The big problem that faces the Ukrainians, though, is that this can be absolutely true and it can still be true that it is better to be part of Putin's Russia than the oligarch's Ukraine.

Which remains, even now in the midst of a war for their very existence, a fabulously corrupt place.

Now, that does not justify a foreign takeover by any means, but if you are a Russian speaker who had all your assets seized and never returned by Kolomoisky and Privatbank, and yuo speak no Ukrainian and live already on the border with Russia...

Would you prefer a corrupt, undemocratic life under the government in the Ukraine...

Or a corrupt, undemocratic life under the government in Russia where there is a strongman that makes the system work a little more and you can expect to earn more money & have better services?

it sucks to boil things down to realpolitik but at the end of the day you have to go to work, so yuo go to work for the guy who pays you more, all other things being equal.

[Unthinking Majority]

The big problem that faces the Ukrainians, though, is that this can be absolutely true and it can still be true that it is better to be part of Putin's Russia than the oligarch's Ukraine.

Which remains, even now in the midst of a war for their very existence, a fabulously corrupt place.

Now, that does not justify a foreign takeover by any means, but if you are a Russian speaker who had all your assets seized and never returned by Kolomoisky and Privatbank, and yuo speak no Ukrainian and live already on the border with Russia...

Would you prefer a corrupt, undemocratic life under the government in the Ukraine...

Or a corrupt, undemocratic life under the government in Russia where there is a strongman that makes the system work a little more and you can expect to earn more money & have better services?

it sucks to boil things down to realpolitik but at the end of the day you have to go to work, so yuo go to work for the guy who pays you more, all other things being equal.

Russia and Ukraine are post-Soviet crapholes, let's call a spade a spade. Post-Soviet states in Eastern Europe have for the most part struggled compared to the rest of Europe. I feel bad for the regular working people of these countries who have to live in countries with such crappy, corrupt governments. What saddens me is that western governments have been degrading in terms of corruption, self-interest, and foreign interference for decades, and currently the situation is quite shocking for us. You wonder how much more people can take until there's a revolt.

[Rugoz]

You cannot entrust democracy and human rights to people that think of democracy & human rights as only expressed by the fulfillment of their own policy goals, and not through simply the practice of liberty in the public sphere by the citizenry.

Democracy is not "simply the practice of liberty in the public sphere by the citizenry". There's always conflict between democracy, i.e. majority rule, and rights.

What was persuasive to me was various sources pointing out that these areas just really had a lot of people who did not want to be part of the Ukraine at all, and just the fact that by immediately leaving the Ukraine and joining Russia they would have access to better services and a better economy, so it was no wonder...

"A lot of people" is not a majority. It also mainly applied to the regions Russia already occupied in 2014, namely Crimea and Donbas (Crimea in particular).

[Rancid]

The idea that Putin cares about "self-determination" for these people is absolutely ridiculous given what he has done to democracy in his own country over the years. He wants more power and to dominate, that's what he cares about.

Exactly, actions speak way louder that words, and many people seem to fall for words more than anything with Putin for some odd reason.

Hey, remember when he said he wasn't going to invade Ukraine right before he invaded? Like, a bald face lie for everyone to see. Yet, it is ignored by the pro-putin crowd.

[Verv]

Democracy is not "simply the practice of liberty in the public sphere by the citizenry". There's always conflict between democracy, i.e. majority rule, and rights.

Yes, the minority must retain its rights for it to be true democratic rule, since democracy hinges on free & fair elections.

An election can be neither free nor fair if there is
- no free press
- no free expression
- no transparency
- no marketplace of ideas

When any sort of position or speech is banned, or when the media is controlled by the elites or the government alone, it is impossible to have democracy.

Even highly controversial opinions have to be allowed.

"A lot of people" is not a majority. It also mainly applied to the regions Russia already occupied in 2014, namely Crimea and Donbas (Crimea in particular).

It seems likely that it was a majority. That is debatable, of course, but if it wasn't a majority then, it's certainly a majority now since those that were loyal to the Ukraine would have fled the militias and Russian military to go West, and those loyal to Russia would have likely relocated from places like Kharkov and Odessa to DPR, LPR, and Crimea.

Of course, I am open to the idea that it is still not a majority, but it is a moot point to me now that the war has been going on for two years. You can argue that and present your sources and I will appraise them.

[Unthinking Majority]

Putin doesn't allow free elections in Russia, but certainly he would ensure free and fair voting in a Crimea or other Ukraine referendum that was completely run by Russia. Russian Olympians are also competing fairly. Putin and his government are super honest and transparent and never try to cheat to get their way.

[Rugoz]

When any sort of position or speech is banned, or when the media is controlled by the elites or the government alone, it is impossible to have democracy.

Free speech has never been absolute. By your definition, there has never been a democracy in human history. The right-wing jerks pretend that free speech is similarly restricted in the West as in Russia/China, which is horseshit.

It seems likely that it was a majority. That is debatable, of course, but if it wasn't a majority then, it's certainly a majority now since those that were loyal to the Ukraine would have fled the militias and Russian military to go West, and those loyal to Russia would have likely relocated from places like Kharkov and Odessa to DPR, LPR, and Crimea.

What? Why would they flee to a war zone?

The conflict led to a vast exodus from the Donbas: half the region's population were forced to flee their homes.[74] A UN OHCHR report released on 3 March 2016 stated that, since the conflict broke out in 2014, the Ukrainian government registered 1.6 million internally displaced people who had fled the Donbas to other parts of Ukraine.[75] Over 1 million were said to have fled elsewhere, mostly to Russia. At the time of the report, 2.7 million people were said to continue to live in areas under DPR and LPR control,[75] comprising about one-third of the Donbas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas

It could be a majority in the occupied parts, before the 2022 war, at least according to one survey (2019). Though the results are inconsistent. Needless to say, lots of people were displaced.

Of course, I am open to the idea that it is still not a majority, but it is a moot point to me now that the war has been going on for two years. You can argue that and present your sources and I will appraise them.

I have posted various survey results in the past. In my experience, the pro-Russia faction here simply ignores them or attacks the source, because they are conducted by Western or Ukrainian institutes. Therefore, I will only make the effort to post sources if you don't dismiss them as biased or propaganda.

[Verv]

Free speech has never been absolute. By your definition, there has never been a democracy in human history. The right-wing jerks pretend that free speech is similarly restricted in the West as in Russia/China, which is horseshit.

Yes, a lot of continental European "democracies" are not democratic at all.

While the United States has traditionally depended on the famous Oliver Wendall Holmes standard on what is and what isn't free speech, which means that speech can only become illegal in some way if it presents a clear and present danger. Both things have to be true - that the speech can result in violence and death because it is bringing a situation towards that end, and that that violence is immediately present.

Now, the Europeans outlaw the questioning of historical events, the use of symbols deemed offensive, words that constitute racial or religious abuse because it inflames people...

This is absolutely against the core principles of a free society.

Which is one more reason why NATO can go suck eggs.

What? Why would they flee to a war zone?

Some of the places within DPR, LPR are not on the front line at all. I think this would have been more relevant in the 2015-2021 period. But, of course, even during the war, many have waited to be liberated by the Russians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas

It could be a majority in the occupied parts, before the 2022 war, at least according to one survey (2019). Though the results are inconsistent. Needless to say, lots of people were displaced.



I have posted various survey results in the past. In my experience, the pro-Russia faction here simply ignores them or attacks the source, because they are conducted by Western or Ukrainian institutes. Therefore, I will only make the effort to post sources if you don't dismiss them as biased or propaganda.

Right, so we don't have to do the dance.

I am open to the idea that I am wrong, but I do not think that I am. My confidence level isn't super high, but if I had to bet, I would place $10 on the West Ukrainian & CIA backed sources being wrong about this, and the German journalist who was there stating that most of the Ukrainians over there wanted some way out of the Ukrainian state.

[Rugoz]

Yes, a lot of continental European "democracies" are not democratic at all.

While the United States has traditionally depended on the famous Oliver Wendall Holmes standard on what is and what isn't free speech, which means that speech can only become illegal in some way if it presents a clear and present danger. Both things have to be true - that the speech can result in violence and death because it is bringing a situation towards that end, and that that violence is immediately present.

Now, the Europeans outlaw the questioning of historical events, the use of symbols deemed offensive, words that constitute racial or religious abuse because it inflames people...

This is absolutely against the core principles of a free society.

Which is one more reason why NATO can go suck eggs.

The idea that a ban on holocaust denial and racist insults somehow irreparably damages the democratic discourse is really quite silly. I have rejected such laws twice at the ballot, in opposition to the majority, but I also acknowledge that in practice they had zero negative effect on the functioning of democracy in my country.

Right, so we don't have to do the dance.

I am open to the idea that I am wrong, but I do not think that I am. My confidence level isn't super high, but if I had to bet, I would place $10 on the West Ukrainian & CIA backed sources being wrong about this, and the German journalist who was there stating that most of the Ukrainians over there wanted some way out of the Ukrainian state.

Calling any source from the West (US and Germany) or Ukraine (Kiev) "CIA backed" and fraudulent is nothing but conspiracy theory. But thanks for not wasting my time.

[Verv]

The idea that a ban on holocaust denial and racist insults somehow irreparably damages the democratic discourse is really quite silly. I have rejected such laws twice at the ballot, in opposition to the majority, but I also acknowledge that in practice they had zero negative effect on the functioning of democracy in my country.

Honestly, I am just thrilled to know you are personally against it, and to some extent I do agree with you: the denial of the Holocaust has very little to do with the upcoming election. But it can create an environment where anyone who is critical of Israel a bit too enthusiastically gets accused of antisemitism, and so much of the power that is derived from this accusation is the great religious zeal that surrounds the Holocaust narrative - a narrative so powerful that it can land you in prison in some countries if you disagree and refuse to be silent on it.

In a sense, any sacred cow that is legally protected or that has the power to get you kicked out of your job is an impediment to democracy, which is why I have this position of supporting civil rights for political opinions: just as no one can be fired for being a Jew or a Muslim or a Mormon, so should it be the case that people can't be fired for being Communists or having some sort of unwholesome political opinion.

There should be no legal or retaliatory financial warfare on an individual for "ugly" opinions, as there should not be for having a controversial view on religion or practicing an alien religion.

This would maximize free speech, which would maximize democracy.

Calling any source from the West (US and Germany) or Ukraine (Kiev) "CIA backed" and fraudulent is nothing but conspiracy theory. But thanks for not wasting my time.

Yeah, you are right, that is a bit unwholesome. I don't want to do it.

But I felt that the German journalist who was in the DPR/LPR region that took his own poll on it and also just spoke informally on it was likely closest to the truth.

I used to have an archive of these things but there are a few examples of Ukrainians who fled to the West doing interviews with the press in which they talked about their hometowns are overrun by Russian loyalsits, etc., which made them feel unsafe and like they had to flee. That generally backs up the narrative of the German journalist...

And in these cases, I tend to be most interested in the most objective sources that have nothing to gain.

I will be glad to read anything you write should you add something to this but I may not respond.

[Tainari88]

Exactly, actions speak way louder that words, and many people seem to fall for words more than anything with Putin for some odd reason.

Hey, remember when he said he wasn't going to invade Ukraine right before he invaded? Like, a bald face lie for everyone to see. Yet, it is ignored by the pro-putin crowd.

Don't be naive Rancid. Politicians are professional liars in many ways. Not just Putin. How about Tucker Carlson going around to Russian supermarkets praising how orderly the Russians are by placing a coin in a shopping cart to make sure the homeless do not cart off with it like in the USA? this is proof that Russia is a civilized nation with a real Right wing leader in charge.

How bad has the Trump crowd gotten lately?

[QatzelOk]

Notice how Putin is represented here by a "monkey" image.

This is how racism is signalled in war-mongering media.

Very dissapointed that no one noticed or commented on this. It demonstrates just how deeply down the well of racism and pre-war ethnocentrism our media has fallen (and perhaps many of our colleagues as well).

With a racist image like this one, the anti-Putin and anti-Russian hate literature writes itself. So don't take too much credit for all the anti-Russian crap you are regurgitating.

[Pewty]

Notice how Putin is represented here by a "monkey" image.

This is how racism is signalled in war-mongering media.

Very dissapointed that no one noticed or commented on this. It demonstrates just how deeply down the well of racism and pre-war ethnocentrism our media has fallen (and perhaps many of our colleagues as well).

With a racist image like this one, the anti-Putin and anti-Russian hate literature writes itself. So don't take too much credit for all the anti-Russian crap you are regurgitating.

Maybe they were just trying to illustrate his lack of intelligence. Generally speaking, (not counting Trump and many of his supporters), humans are more intelligent than monkeys.

Of course, that means Carlson should have been a chimp too, to be fair.

[QatzelOk]

Maybe they were just trying to illustrate his lack of intelligence...

With that genius Biden representing the West, "our side" is in no position to be criticizing the intelligence of other world leaders.

And Putin has proven himself intelligent and well-informed on many occasions.

Your silly racism-backing comment demonstrates just how easy it is to turn people into racists, and the 1% are happy with your reaction. They would like to see you killed in a war, and you are reacting exactly as they like their cattle to react.