[wat0n]

That is clearly not true, given the amount of fighting Israel has required to gradually take control of Gazan territory.

[Pants-of-dog]

No one claimed it was an absolutely perfect occupation.

I assume someone would have to convince themselves that the IDF is magically not occupying Gaza if they also needed to believe that Hamas had no rational motive for the October 7 attack, and said attack was merely the product of moustache twirling villains.

[wat0n]

Either an occupation is or isn't.

Everything you described is a blockade.

[Deutschmania]

I'm pretty sure the only reasons he's doing this now is so they can coordinate their stories and suppress the evidence in order to avoid The Hague.

With all that being said however , the United States , along with six other countries , has never submitted to being subject to the ICC. So while , at worse it could be condemned on the world stage , in the court of public opinion , the U.S. cannot be brought up on charges of complicity in the commission of genocide , and or crimes against humanity , anymore than say Russia could , or for that matter even Israel .

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/16/1093212495/the-u-s-does-not-recognize-the-jurisdiction-of-the-international-criminal-court ,

https://www.jurist.org/archives/feature/non-signatory-countries/ ,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court

[Pants-of-dog]

Not only did the IDF and Israeli government not give up any land, by keeping Gaza under military occupation, but they also never tried to get peace from their withdrawal. This is proven by the simple fact that they kept military control of the area.

[Unthinking Majority]

Not only did the IDF and Israeli government not give up any land, by keeping Gaza under military occupation, but they also never tried to get peace from their withdrawal. This is proven by the simple fact that they kept military control of the area.

In 2005 Israel pulled out all civilians and military forces out of Gaza and gave all control and administration over all land back to Gazans. It's not under military occupation, except right now obviously. Israel maintains a naval blockade of Gaza because the elected Gaza government and other groups import weapons that they've constantly launch at Israeli civilians for decades.

[wat0n]

A blockade of a territory isn't the same as military control of it.

If anything, it's evidence of the lack thereof.

[Pants-of-dog]

If people want to deny obvious facts, like the fact that the IDF has fill military control and access since 2005, there is not much to say.

[wat0n]

If anything, what's actually obvious is that many can't tell an occupation from a blockade

[late]

If anything, what's actually obvious is that many can't tell an occupation from a blockade

You haven't figured it out, have you.

Israel has depended on us to keep the world off their back.

But when Biden's own wife is hollering at him, he won't be able to do that.

On top of that, because AIPAC kept a tight control of the narrative, our relationship was fixed. That works as long as it works, but it's stopped working. In the game of Go, it's called a snapback. You push too far, and then things snap back.

From your POV, this is very bad. Any diplomat would have warned you about playing hard and loose and under the table. And now the change has started.

[Pants-of-dog]

Since the definitions for both a blockade and occupation have been supplied, it is illogical to assume people are not aware of the difference. It is also irrelevant to the claim that the Israeli government exchanged land for peace.

Even if people deny the obvious and convince themselves that land was given back, the subsequent actions show peace was not the goal, since the IDF kept entering said land and killing hundreds each year.

[wat0n]

It is precisely because we know what both "occupation" and "blockade" mean that we know some can't tell both apart.

You haven't figured it out, have you.

Israel has depended on us to keep the world off their back.

But when Biden's own wife is hollering at him, he won't be able to do that.

On top of that, because AIPAC kept a tight control of the narrative, our relationship was fixed. That works as long as it works, but it's stopped working. In the game of Go, it's called a snapback. You push too far, and then things snap back.

From your POV, this is very bad. Any diplomat would have warned you about playing hard and loose and under the table. And now the change has started.

And now with some antisemitic conspiracy theories to boot.

[Pants-of-dog]

Since no one disagrees with the claim that Israeli forces were always being violent in Gaza since 2005, we can conclude that it is incorrect to claim that the Israeli government gave up land for peace.

[late]

And now with some antisemitic conspiracy theories to boot.

It's not anti-Semitic, or a theory, much less a conspiracy theory.

But thank you for so blatantly demonstrating your cluelessness.

[wat0n]

Since no one disagrees with the claim that Israeli forces were always being violent in Gaza since 2005, we can conclude that it is incorrect to claim that the Israeli government gave up land for peace.

This omits the fact that Hamas did not cease attacking Israel from Gaza.

It is unsurprising it does so given this comes from someone who justifies such attacks.

It's not anti-Semitic, or a theory, much less a conspiracy theory.

But thank you for so blatantly demonstrating your cluelessness.

Typical "defense" from the conspiracy theorists when called out.

But, if anything, Biden's pressure on Israel makes it obvious the conspiracy theorists were always wrong.

[Pants-of-dog]

The fact that Hamas engaged in violence with the IDF is another point of evidence for the claim of occupation and against the claim of land for peace.

People do not engage in militant activity against a superior foe unless there is a reason. And this reason almost certainly requires violence from the superior power, such as occupation.

[wat0n]

Or maybe Hamas is a fundamentalist group, no different from the Branch Davidians in being willing to fight a superior foe for sectarian reasons.

[late]

Typical "defense" from the conspiracy theorists when called out.

But, if anything, Biden's pressure on Israel makes it obvious the conspiracy theorists were always wrong.

It's not a theory.

Now that the control of the narrative has been lost, opposition has erupted. I don't mind admitting I was surprised. I did not expect to see a change in the US/Israel relationship in my lifetime.

The question I am asking now is how much damage is this going to cause, to Israel, and the US. Looks like it could be a lot.

[wat0n]

Let's see what happens. I doubt pro-Israel Democrats will be pleased, at all, if Hamas is allowed to remain in power in Gaza.

I am already expecting some sort of electoral punishment of, at least, the progressive wing of the party.

[Tainari88]

@late I wonder if Biden is realizing that not having strings attached to the money he sends to the Netayahu government is going to cost him the election in the US? Once he makes Netanyahu play nice do you think he might go back to the old US and Israel relationship? That the ceasefire is only for his electoral ambitions?