[KurtFF8]

Intersting stories form yahoo and cnn (and cool video) of the saddam statue being toppled (u know, that one lol)

Althought most of you hate the US and stuff, you all should admit that this is a very good thing for Iraqis

[Wilhelm]

Well yes, I'm not sorry about Saddam leaving power. But who will come next? remember that the US put both Saddam and the Taliban in power. I bet in 10 years we will see the US fighting against another ruthless dictator in Iraq, the one that they'll put in power now.

[John Doe]

Russian Medals

[Boondock Saint]

Wow John Doe ... is that an actual Russian paper? Wow ... I imagine Russia has people who would agree and disagree with that.

The Iraqi ambassador to the UN said the war is over ... 'game over' he said ... thats interesting as up until then he had been defiant to the US ...

Anyway, yea I saw the statue come down live ... interesting.

The toppling of Saddam isnt what I was concerned with in the first place ... I figured that would happen eventually anyway ...

But ... Baghdad isnt the only city in Iraq ... Tikrit (Saddams HOME) and Mosul and for that matter all of Baghdad have still not fallen ...

Now what MUST happen is law and order immediatly followed by humanitarian aid ...

Honestly Americans are not good at policing themselves let alone a foreign nation ... our police are thugish .. I could only imagine what our military personel would be like ... its my beleif that if the UN wont be peacekeepers then this is where the UK can really shine ... no doubt in my mind the Brits would be better at peacekeeping then the US ...

Did u see the people of Iraq dragging Saddams head down the street? HEH! I find that funny ...

Anyway, this is where the real test comes in ... finishing up Saddams supporters and establishing law and order while administering aid to the Iraqi people ...

They might enjoy looting gov't buildings, tearing down statues and beating paintings of Saddam for a few days but when the reality of hunger sets in they will look to the US to provide them with food ... and when revenge killings start to take place they will look to the US to provide security ... and then the US soldiers become police ... not a good thing ...

Anyway ... the war isnt over yet IMO ... there is still more fighting to take place.

As for Russia and Chechnya ... the difference is the Chechens are fighting the Russians ... all of them ... where as the majority of the Iraqi's were sitting on the sidelines in this war ...

No one can invade a nation where the people do not want to be invaded without using Saddamesque tactics.

[Adrien]

The toppling of a statue is always an highly symbolic act, very theatrical.

It was the same with Stalin's for example, and -to go off topic- that's very well rendered in Enemy at the Gates (if you take the scene apart of course).

[KurtFF8]

I doubt that we will install a dictator in Iraq now.

[KurtFF8]

yee lol

[John Doe]

Boondock,

Yea, it is Russian. BTW, it is interesting to read through the earlier editorials as the war progressed.

I think the image that will be remembered is toppling the statue, but the act of real significance is the first armored column drive through Baghdad. As the editorial indicates a lot of foreign opinion is that Americans don't have stomach for war. That inflicting casualties on Americans will quickly break their will to fight. A lot of this is based on the mess in Somolia.

The Americans captured the airport with a light force. I think the symbology of the audacious drive into Baghdad, during the day and foregoing the US night fighting advantages and confronting the menace of urban warfar without hesitation, is bound to have a huge impact with governments and militaries around the globe. Oh, and they did this with nearly a third of the forces they originally planned for the Iraq war floating through the Suez canal. That's why I posted that link.

Bin Laden's plan was to provoke an American response. This was supposed to lead to an American bloodbath that dwarfed Mogadishu. That was supposed to lead to an American withdraw and thusly to a confirming of Jihad that would sweep away Moslem secular states and replace them with theocracies.

I believe that the US saw another cold war gathering. I believe they saw a situation where sovereign states, while claiming a non-belligerent status, would host and finance terrorist groups which would then be used as proxies to shape world affairs through intimidation.

Less than two years later the US has derailed that. Two belligerent regimes have been whacked.

The peace can still be lost, but I believe that it is very clear that Moslem states have to consider very carefully any endosment, overt or otherwise, of terrorist groups. Hopefully (an as you know Saint from Z's I don't think highly of the Bush Administrations diplomatic skills ) the next step is addressing the Palestinian problem. I would like to see unambiguous recognition of Isreal by the Palestinian state. In return the Jewish settlers in the West Bank would either move back to Isreal or accept Palestinian citizenship. Isreal was warned time and time again not to settle the West Bank. The price of their security has to be finally facing the folly of that policy.

I would also like to see return of the Golan to Syria in return for recognition and the bulldozing of the Palestinain refugee camps in the south of Syria and the Lebanon. Syria also needs to withdraw their troops from the occupation of the Lebanon and they need to dismantle their terrorist camps. If Syria resists -- whack 'em.

The final piece of the puzzle is Iran. I believe they can be handled through diplomatic means. Assuming the US pulls of a liberalization in Iraq (a big if) thgeir days are numbered anyways. I believe steady pressure will lead to Iran moderating thgeir behavior.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

If Syria resists -- whack 'em.

The final piece of the puzzle is Iran. I believe they can be handled through diplomatic means. Assuming the US pulls of a liberalization in Iraq (a big if) thgeir days are numbered anyways. I believe steady pressure will lead to Iran moderating thgeir behavior.

Syria and Iran...ARE next. Of course US will come up with some BS and call for a crusade against them...but I am affraid those wars will end up a lot differenently.

Syria and Iran are not Iraq. They have build up their militaries for decades...for just this purpose. Also...the people of these countries are very much more nationalistic and anti-imperialist. Iraq was a divided country...Saddam barely controlled 1/3 of his own country before...his military was non-existant...he just had a big mouth.

But I would like to see US take on Iran...US better be careful...becasue next time the Arab world may not take it so quietly.

That said...I'd like to say damn you Saddam!! You betrayed your own people and the whole world. Let that be a lesson...capitalists are the same all over the world...they only look after their own interests.

"Why did he fall that way? Why so fast?" said Yemeni homemaker Umm Ahmed, tears streaming down her face. "He's a coward. Now I feel sorry for his people."

[Vassili Zaitsev]

I completely agree with you Spetsnaz.

[Boondock Saint]

Heh ... funny ...

And Saddam fashioned himself after Stalin ... who was his hero ... I think he did a rather good job emulating that 'leader' ... if u can call such an animal a leader.

[John Doe]

Spetsnaz,

Actually, I think if Assad keeps foolishly rattling his sabre in Damascus his own Generals are liable whack him. They do want to keep living the sweet life in their snazzy villas after all.

You may claim their army could put up a fight against the American army -- Bwwahahaha. Bekka valley ring a bell? Russia may struggle with third world armies -- we've seen how a well trained and equiped army deals with them.

[Vassili Zaitsev]

Thats because Russia is not the military powerhouse known as the USSR anymore comrade.

[Boondock Saint]

Thats because Russia is not the military powerhouse known as the USSR anymore comrade.

Your joking right?

Anyone else smell that? Geez ... what is that smell ... is it ... defeat?

Oh ... no its just the Soviet army retreating from Afghanistan ...

But thats ok, cause the Russians proved themselves in Chechnya.

[Tigerlily]

Intersting stories form yahoo and cnn (and cool video) of the saddam statue being toppled (u know, that one lol)

Althought most of you hate the US and stuff, you all should admit that this is a very good thing for Iraqis

But is it a good thing? Says who? Western media? I just read a book on how to watch TV news and they brought up a lot of interesting points. When you read or watch the news, you aren't being informed of what's happening that day...it's what the journalist think is worth reporting.

A man was on TV last night and he pointed out that even though the statue was taken down, there's wasn't a lot of Iraqi people marching in the streets. Baghdad has a population of 5 million people but there's wasnt anywhere near a million out on the streets.

If it's so great than how come many are in the hospitals right now?

I think the coalition force (especially the US since they are the ring leader of it all) acted cowardly. They knew Iraq had a piece of crap military, they knew they had no military airplanes or any of the fancy pants technologies the Americans and the British have. They knew it was an easy way out to get peoples attentions off Afghanistan.

What about North Korea? Didn't they say a while ago something about nuclear weapons? Hmm? How come there's no war there? Is it because there's more of a chance of a fight and struggle there than in Iraq?

[Boondock Saint]

Yes baby, you are correct. The US military is a cowardly force that couldnt be a third world nation.

Absolutely ... to prove their bravery what the coalition force should have done was march in with wooden sticks and blow guns ... that would have been brave.

You know ... when it comes to war the most important thing is winning ... not what someone else who isnt involved in the war thinks ...

As for the people of Baghdad ... they looked plenty happy to me ... but I guess thats just US propeganda ... just like everything else has always been US propeganda ... Hell ... I bet the USSR is still around and strong as ever but the US gov't is just lying about that too ...

Man ... so many people look at a cigar and just refuse to see a cigar ...

[Siberian Fox]

Boondock Saint, I don't think that is the point baby_n1 was making.

What baby_n1 was saying was not that the Anglo-American forces should have attacked Iraq with a sticks instead, but that the reason an attack on Iraq was viable was because Iraq had such a poor military - unlike North Korea, which has (apparently) nuclear weapons with the range to hit the US mainland and a conventional army dug in on the most fortified frontier on earth.

[John Doe]

baby_n1,

Uhhh... maybe because Iraq and North Korea are two different situations?

North Korea broke their agreement with the US and requested unilateral talks with the US so's they could try to mooch more food off of the US. The US said no to unilateral talks. They had to be multilateral -- including South Korea, China, Japan and Russia. Regardless, our food shipments have been suspended due to the breakdown of the earlier agreement.

Korea had rejected multilateralism and has indicated they are withdrawing from the Non-Proliferation treaty. They are an country that has isolated themselves internationally through escalating brinksmanship and their larder is nearly bare.

North Korea is in desperate economic shape. Their industrial equipment is antique and busting down slowly. They are perhaps are the only country on Earth that is de-electrifying because their ability to produce electric power is steadily declining. The only way they can feed their population, due to that most horrid form of mismanagement called collective farming, is through international donations. That well has dried up.

The US will sit back and wait for either the Chinese to manage to moderate North Korea's behavior, or for the house of cards to crumble.

Bear in mind that the US has stealth bombers close in the region in case it looks like North Korea's very limited nuclear ability needs to be destroyed in the advent of hostilities (ie; a strike across the DMZ towards Seoul).

[John Doe]

Fox,

The longer range Korean missle(s) are liquid fuel powered.

[Tigerlily]

Well what both Fox and Boondock said was pretty much what I meant.