[Doomhammer]

Stop bickering.

Shade2, Poland has no doubt gone through tough times in the past, but should past events completely dictate our perception of the present? Yes there was a time 60 years ago when 34% of the German population elected a party which brought much suffering to the world. Does this matter today? There is so much cooperation and civility in Europe now a days. Some international theorists even say that Europe has trancended into a state of mature anarchy, where states cooperate withe each other and act on the basis of mutual respect. You can't go around calling all Germans "narcissistic, evil nazi conquerers." If you try to discrimate people based on faulty and irrational presumptions, then are you any better than a goose-stepping nazi?

I think your paranoia is pointless. Poland is, afterall, a respected EU country which is valuable to the European community in general. More importantly, both Poland and Germany are democratic countries with common interests. According to "democratic peace theory", democratic countries do not fight each other, ergo Germany does not/ can not have any hostile intentions against Poland.

[Shade2]

Like I said, you've lost the argument and are afraid to make any proper responses.

I already won that argument.

Ah, poor Shade, the perpetual 'victim' (of his own prejudices).

The only victim is you, with your desire to engage in trolling rather then discussion.

Yes there was a time 60 years ago when 34% of the German population elected a party which brought much suffering to the world.

And there was time when the highest order of Bavaria was awarded to former member of Hitler's honour guard. That was Da couple of years ago. There was a time when all Nazi criminals were granted amnesty. That was in 50s. There was a time when person responsible for deaths of 50,000 Poles became mayor of a German town and CDU politician, receiving payment from German government. That was in 60s IIRC. There was a time when a Nazi judge responsible for thousands of death sentences was made a minister in West Germany and leader of the so called "expelled". That was also in the 60s. There was a time when German government made a deal with Russia allowing it to blackmail Central Europe. That was 3 years ago(surprsingly Poland bashers blaming the "twins" forget that outrage made in Poland was made by leftist president Kwasniewski not the "twins").
Sorry as a Pole why should I trust Germany ? Why were thousands of war criminals pardoned, given pensions and enjoyed succesfull roles as politicians ? Why does Germany fund organisations hostile to Poland ? Why does it make arrengments criticised by every part of Polish political establishment left and right as leading to weakening of Polish safety ?

Democratic countries do not fight each other, ergo Germany does not/ can not have any hostile intentions against Poland.

Oh I guess that is the reason Polish people are banned from speaking Polish to their children in Germany, Steinbach gets milions from Bundestag, Germany makes deals with Russia that endanger Poland, and war reperations to Poland were never paid.

there was a time 60 years ago when 34% of the German population elected a party which brought much suffering to the world.

60 years ago was 1947-the time polls were made by Allies in which 55% Germans accepted Nazism as "good idea" and 37% agreed that "extermination of Poles and Jews is necessary".
I might trust Germany more if it wasn't for the fact that Adenauer pardoned all the Nazis in 50s and brought them to government.

[soron]

You know I'd mock you, but with all that utter nonsense you're writing the challenge is gone.

[Shade2]

ou know I'd mock you, but with all that utter nonsense you're writing the challenge is gone. Roll eyes

Point to any nonsense. Your reaction is pure denial by trying to ridicule my position. The fact is that several war criminals that had Polish blood on their hands continued succesfull political carriers in post-war Germany and that Germany never attoned for its behaviour towards Poland like it did towards Jews.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catalog/ ... 118821.HTM

Of all the aspects of recovery in postwar Germany perhaps none was as critical or as complicated as the matter of dealing with Nazi criminals, and, more broadly, with the Nazi past. While on the international stage German officials spoke with contrition of their nation's burden of guilt, at home questions of responsibility and retribution were not so clear. In this masterful examination of Germany under Adenauer, Norbert Frei shows that, beginning in 1949, the West German government dramatically reversed the denazification policies of the immediate postwar period and initiated a new "Vergangenheitspolitik," or "policy for the past," which has had enormous consequences reaching into the present.

Adenauer's Germany and the Nazi Past chronicles how amnesty laws for Nazi officials were passed unanimously and civil servants who had been dismissed in 1945 were reinstated liberally�and how a massive popular outcry led to the release of war criminals who had been condemned by the Allies. These measures and movements represented more than just the rehabilitation of particular individuals. Frei argues that the amnesty process delegitimized the previous political expurgation administered by the Allies and, on a deeper level, served to satisfy the collective psychic needs of a society longing for a clean break with the unparalleled political and moral catastrophe it had undergone in the 1940s. Thus the era of Adenauer devolved into a scandal-ridden period of reintegration at any cost. Frei's work brilliantly and chillingly explores how the collective will of the German people, expressed through mass allegiance to new consensus-oriented democratic parties, cast off responsibility for the horrors of the war and Holocaust, effectively silencing engagement with the enormities of the Nazi past.

Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Reinefarth

After the outbreak of the Warsaw Uprising Reinefarth was ordered to organise a military unit out of 16th Police Company and other smaller units and head for Warsaw. Upon arrival his forces were included in the Korpsgruppe von dem Bach of general Erich von dem Bach who was ordered by Heinrich Himmler to quell the rebellion.

Since August 5, 1944 the group of Reinefarth took part in fights in Wola area. His soldiers in several days executed approximately 50,000 civilian inhabitants of Warsaw in what is now known as the Wola Massacre. In one of his reports to the commander of the German 9th Army he stated that "we have more prisoners than ammunition to kill them". After securing the Wola area his troops took part in heavy fights against the Armia Krajowa in the Old Town. In September his forces were transferred to attack the partisans in the boroughs of Powiśle and Czerniaków. The exact number of victims of Reinefarth's unit is unknown. During their fight in Warsaw they deliberately shot most of the POWs, civilians and wounded in captured hospitals. For his actions during the Warsaw Uprising Reinefarth was awarded on September 30, 1944, with the Oak Leaves to his Iron Cross. The death toll could be as high as 100,000.

In December 1944 Reinefarth was given command over the XVIII SS Army Corps in the central Oder river area. Between January and March 1945 he commanded the Festung Küstrin. He declined to defend it to the last man and was sentenced to death by a military court. However, he was never executed and continued to command his troops that managed to leave the fortress and were renamed to XIV SS Army Corps.

After the World War II Polish authorities demanded his extradition. However, the British and American authorities of the occupied Germany decided that Reinefarth could be useful as a witness at the Nuremberg Trial. After the trial he was arrested for war crimes, but a local court in Hamburg released him shortly afterwards due to lack of evidence. In December 1951 he was elected Mayor of the town of Westerland, the main town on the island of Sylt. In 1962 he was elected to the Landtag of Schleswig-Holstein. After his term ended in 1967 he started to work as a lawyer.

Despite numerous demands he was never extradited to Poland. Instead, the government of West Germany awarded him with a general's pension. He died on May 7, 1979 in his manor on Sylt.

Why should I trust a country that awards mass murderers of my people with pensions?

You can't go around calling all Germans "narcissistic, evil nazi conquerers." I

I never did, so that accusation is groundles. Besides it would be foolish to limit German nationalism to Nazis. They were just a branch of it.

[87522]

Tell that the next time Bundestag appoints milions of euros on attempts to portay Germans as victims of WW2.

When did it do that?

[Doomhammer]

60 years ago was 1947-the time polls were made by Allies in which 55% Germans accepted Nazism as "good idea" and 37% agreed that "extermination of Poles and Jews is necessary".

Okay 70 years ago for my point.

Oh I guess that is the reason Polish people are banned from speaking Polish to their children in Germany

In public, I presume. If you're a German citizen, it's common sense to speak German, in public. I don't agree with what the Germans are doing, but this kind of discrinatory behavior occurs world wide.

and war reperations to Poland were never paid.

because of Soviet occupation

[87522]

Oh I guess that is the reason Polish people are banned from speaking Polish to their children in Germany

I guess it's done because many children in Germany don't speak a single word of German when they start school, which sort of hampers the educational process.

Banning parents from speaking to their children in their native language surely isn't the best way to work against that problem, but what are they supposed to do instead?

[M.ta]

I guess it's done because many children in Germany don't speak a single word of German when they start school, which sort of hampers the educational process.

Banning parents from speaking to their children in their native language surely isn't the best way to work against that problem, but what are they supposed to do instead?

Hmm... very nice idea indeed. A clever way to encourage multiculturalism and respect for other cultures.
The last time there was such a thing in my country was during fascism, when minorities were banned from speaking their own native languages and dialects.

[87522]

multiculturalism is nice, but you have to agree that many children not speaking the national language while attending public schools (who in Germany have to take every student regardless of their qualifications (though there are some exeptions)) is a quite problem after all.

So instead of calling the German authorites "fascist" (yawn ), why don't you suggest some better solution?

[Tailz]

Dumbteen wrote:

Why should commissioners be based on country? Lets just go for the US system: a senate where each country has equal representation, and a (more powerful) parliament which is actually democratic (that's the one we have now).

We shouldn't have commissioners, but an actual government made up of MEPs.

I agree, from the very beginning of the EU I had watched the various members arguing over their own 'national' interests and identity. The politicians have been too interested or concerned about their own "countries" interests.

The EU could be such a uniting factor for the many peoples of Europe - but there is so much bickering over national identity within the whole. Yet they do not seem to have worked it out that you can still be French or German or English and a part of the whole.

I thought the EU would be a good stepping block towards uniting or showing the way for the 'worlds' people - but now I am not to sure.

As for equal representation, I am all for that, but it should not be defined by country - I see that descending back into the national identity issues again with such topics as:

"Why should a small country with a small population and small geographic area have as much say as a large country with more people and more geographic area?"

I think equal and transparent representation can be accomplished - as to how, I am not certain - maybe you need to look at the EU as a whole, rather than a conglomeration of squabbing states. Then maybe a solution to equal and transparent representation for the whole of the EU can be found.

Shade2 wrote:

Really ? I don't recall Germany ever paying 540 billion Euro of war reperations.

No Germany just had its industrial heart riped out at the end of World War II and was split in two between the Western Allies and the USSR during the Cold War, lost thousands of men in Soviet captivity at the end of the war, had its great scientific minds taken away to ether the USSR or Allied Countries, etc...

I think Germany has been punished enough - or do you think we should force the next Generation of Germans who were not even alive during Hitlers time, pay for the previous generations mistakes?

Germany is full of arrogant nationalism, the belief that they are better then the rest of the world. It manifests itself in many forms, Nazism is just one of them. You can find the belief that Germany is better then the rest of Europe in many German political movements.

Yeah Germany has some problems, most countries do - or are you going to tell me there is a golden halo over Poland as it has no problems of its own?

Attempts to dominate Europe and alliances with Russia in order to do so, proves otherwise.

Can you please site these alliances and how they are aimed at domination of Europe?

Oh I guess that is the reason Polish people are banned from speaking Polish to their children in Germany

If you live in a country should you learn to speak in the native language of that country? If a German lived in Poland should they learn the national language of Poland? If a Pole lived in Japan should that Pole learn Japanese?

[Shade2]

No Germany just had its industrial heart riped out at the end of World War II and was split in two between the Western Allies and the USSR during the Cold War, lost thousands of men in Soviet captivity at the end of the war, had its great scientific minds taken away to ether the USSR or Allied Countries, etc...

"Poor" Germany, such a tragic. And the only thing it wanted was to conquer the world and exterminate a couple of nations. Should I cry now ?

I think Germany has been punished enough - or do you think we should force the next Generation of Germans who were not even alive during Hitlers time, pay for the previous generations mistakes?

All countries pay debts of their previous generations.

Yeah Germany has some problems, most countries do - or are you going to tell me there is a golden halo over Poland as it has no problems of its own?

Actuall they are no such organisations in Poland like BdV and no parties demanding return of territories Poland lost in WW2 to Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania. In Germany such organisations and parties exist. In Poland there is no such revanchism as in Germany-why ?

Can you please site these alliances and how they are aimed at domination of Europe?

http://newsfromrussia.com/politics/2005 ... 65257.html

Frank-Walter Steinmeier, nominated on Thursday as Germany's next foreign minister, is a close ally of outgoing Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder who has so far preferred a low profile to the political spotlight.A law graduate, he has earned a reputation across party lines as an efficient manager and tireless worker in six years as the head of Schroeder's chancellery.


He cited peacekeeping in the Balkans, efforts to help the world's poorest countries and Germany's strategic partnership with Russia among the government's achievements, reports the Reuters.

http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=73

At a geopolitical level, the consequences of the Hanover transaction, most likely, will be as follows: by 2010, before the completion of the BASF financed North European Pipeline construction under the Baltic Sea, Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic states, today the geopolitical allies of the USA, will become dependent on Berlin and Moscow.
Concurrent to the signing of the Hanover agreement, Putin's administration declared a tariff increase on energy carriers delivered to the Ukraine. This is equivalent to a death sentence for the Ukraine's sick economy. In addition, the largest oil unit of Latvia and the Baltic region in general, Ventspilsnafta, sustained huge losses because of the embargo declared by Moscow. Already today Berlin has an opportunity to provide uninterrupted deliveries of oil and gas through the Ukrainian, Latvian and other infrastructures in exchange for a guaranteed increase of German influence in the region - certainly, to the detriment of the US. With completion of the North European Pipeline construction, the Eastern European countries will be at mercy of German businesses.
The supply of natural gas via the bottom of the Baltic Sea will transform Germany into the main redistributor of natural gas in Eastern Europe.
Also continuation of the Eastern Europe power infrastructure for the deliveries of the Russian energy resources to the West will depend on Berlin's good will.

If you live in a country should you learn to speak in the native language of that country? If a German lived in Poland should they learn the national language of Poland? If a Pole lived in Japan should that Pole learn Japanese?

I don't believe forbidding parents to talk to their children in their native language is necessary for them to learn language of the country they are in. I don't recall Poles ever having trouble with learning German and speaking it in Germany. I don't recall cases were English and French children were forbidden to speak English and French in Germany.

[M.ta]

multiculturalism is nice, but you have to agree that many children not speaking the national language while attending public schools (who in Germany have to take every student regardless of their qualifications (though there are some exeptions)) is a quite problem after all.

So instead of calling the German authorites "fascist" (yawn ), why don't you suggest some better solution?

I've said nothing of the sort! I have not called German authorities "fascist", nor I think they are!
I'm commenting on this specific "educational" step (if it can called "educative" not allowing people to speak their own language) in a world where the more languages you speak the better it is, and on a time where every language is regarded as a richness, not -as in an anachronistic past- as a problem.

A better solution? Encourage people to acquire the "official" language offering them the possibility to take additional lessons and creating opportunities -even small ones- to mix with others in informal events.

[87522]

Encourage people to acquire the "official" language offering them the possibility to take additional lessons and creating opportunities -even small ones- to mix with others in informal events.

That's what they've been trying for years now .

Don't get me wrong - I agree that every language should be regarded as an enrichment to whatever culture - but this step, though crude, is a desperate attempt at solving a serious problem in the German school system. As long as these children attend German public school, it think it's absolutely necessary for them to master the German language; if their parents want them to grow up knowing only Polish they could send them to Polish schools. Unfortunately, I don't know of any Poles that founded Polish schools in Germany; which would be possible, I think.

And Shade2 - The gas that will flow through the North European Gas Pipeline will deliver gas to Western Europe, gas for Eastern Europe should contiunue flowing through the old pipelines. Or not - which isn't Germany's fault, so stop bitching at us.

[Shade2]

As long as these children attend German public school, it think it's absolutely necessary for them to master the German language; if their parents want them to grow up knowing only Polish they could send them to Polish schools.

And as usuall, ignoring the fact that is not about school but home. Parents are forbidden to speak to their children in Polish.

e gas that will flow through the North European Gas Pipeline will deliver gas to Western Europe, gas for Eastern Europe should contiunue flowing through the old pipelines. Or not - which isn't Germany's fault, so stop bitching at us.

LOL, do you take us for idiots ? It is perfectly clear that Russia will be able to blackmail us thanks to German efforts. Just because you give somebody else your gun to kill a person, doesn't make you innocent.

[Falx]

And as usuall, ignoring the fact that is not about school but home. Parents are forbidden to speak to their children in Polish.

Got any proof for that, seems like this type of thing went down the drain in most of the world by the 60's.

[Shade2]

Yes it is on the page 1 of the thread if you would care to read it.

[Falx]

That seems to be a one off case under special circumstances, ie divorce, while I don't approve of it saying "Parents are forbidden to speak to their children in Polish." is both sensationalizing and misleading.

[Shade2]

That seems to be a one off case under special circumstances, ie divorce,

There are thousands of such cases.
http://www.tata.pl/verboten.htm

Mirosław Kraszewski, 52-letni lekarz radiolog, pochodzi z Łodzi. W Niemczech żyje od 1981 r., ale nie przyjął niemieckiego obywatelstwa. Niemka Andrea, jego była żona, pracowała jako pielęgniarka w tym samym szpitalu w Gütersloh. Małżeństwo rozpadło się w 2000 r. Ich siedmioletni syn Filip ma dwa paszporty. Kraszewskiemu przyznano prawo widywania chłopca raz na dwa tygodnie, z zastrzeżeniem, że musi rozmawiać z nim po niemiecku. - Zdaniem sędzi, język polski odbije się negatywnie na wychowaniu chłopca - mówi zdesperowany ojciec. Kraszewski nie zastosował się do jej zakazu i odmówił podpisania zobowiązania. - Niestety, moja żona uległa presji rodziny, żeby "nie robiła z Filipa polskiej małpy". Gdy syn jej oświadczył, że nadal będzie ze mną rozmawiał po polsku, uderzyła go w twarz.

Miroslaw Kraszewski 52 year old radiologists comes from Lodz, He lives in Germany since 1981 although he didn't take German citizenship. Germaness Andrea his wife worked as a nurse in Gütersloh. Małżeństwo rozpadło się w 2000 r. Ich siedmioletni syn Filip ma dwa paszporty. Kraszewskiemu przyznano prawo widywania chłopca raz na dwa tygodnie, z zastrzeżeniem, że musi rozmawiać z nim po niemiecku. Marriage broke up in 2000, Their 7 year old child Filip has two passports. Kraszewski was allowed to see the boy once per two weeks, under condition that he must speak in German. According to the judge "speaking in Polish will be harmfull for development of the boy"-says desperate father. Kraszewski refused to do so and didn't sign such obligation. Sadly my wife decided to do what her family insisted "not to make him(son) a "Polish ape". When he told her he will speak in Polish with me he was beaten in the face.

saying "Parents are forbidden to speak to their children in Polish." is both sensationalizing and misleading.

Why ? It is a correct description.
Are French parents, English parents forbidden to speak to their children in French or English. Are German courst saying that learning English or French will be "harmfull for development of child" ?

[Falx]

Unfortunately I can't read your source and the translation leaves more to be desired of. But again this case falls into the same boat as the other one, a divorce during which a German mother does not allow her child to speak polish.

Why ? It is a correct description.

No, it gives the impression that all parents, even purely polish ones, are forbidden to teach their children polish.

[soron]

Actuall they are no such organisations in Poland like BdV and no parties demanding return of territories Poland lost in WW2 to Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania. In Germany such organisations and parties exist. In Poland there is no such revanchism as in Germany-why ?

Because your posts are racists rather than revanchist ? Inaccurate too, of course since you never mention that Poland received 15% of the reparations paid to the Soviet Union ... billions back in 1950 which would be a bit more according to today's exchange rate. But you even deny ever receiving that so how truthfull are your claims ?