[arcis]

They are 2,000,000 Poles in Germany.

Any source for this statement?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polen_(Volk)

Neutrale Schätzungen gehen davon aus, dass es weltweit 44 bis 60 Millionen Polen gibt. Es gibt polnische Angaben, die von über 70 Millionen Polen in der gesamten Welt sprechen. Hier gehen aber die Meinungen über die Definitionen auseinander, wer ein Pole ist und wer nicht. So werden unter anderem die Nachkommen der im 19. Jahrhundert nach Deutschland eingewanderten Ruhrpolen ebenso mitgezählt, wie 1,3 Millionen deutsche Spätaussiedler aus Polen. So entstehen Zahlen von 2,2 bis 3 Millionen Polen in Deutschland. In polnischen Quellen wird die Zahl von Polen in Frankreich mit 1.050.000, für Kanada mit 800.000 und für die USA 10.600.000 angegeben. Die amerikanische Volkszählung von 2000 spricht aber nur von 667.414 Personen (0,25 % der Bevölkerung), die zu Hause Polnisch sprechen. Rechnet man alle Menschen mit ein, die in den letzten 150 Jahren einen polnischen Vorfahren hatten, dann kommt man auf über 100 Millionen Polen (siehe auch Polnische Diaspora).

At the moment there live about 300000 people with polish citizenship in Germany. The number of 2000000 poles in Germany includes all Germans with polish ancestors and ethnic german immigrates which partially date back to the 19.th century. If you apply the same counting method to the USA, there should be at the moment live around 10 000 000 poles in the states.

[87522]

guess that makes me Polish by Shade2's definition!

Thinking about it; yes, I'm constantly discriminated against... stupid rascist profs...

[arcis]

Why don't they receive help from German state ?

Why should they get help from the German state?

[Shade2]

The National Democrats are quite popular in Poland, aren't they

I'm unaware of any such party in Poland.

Poland's National Democrats, an anti-semitic right-wing party

There isn't a party called National Democrats in Poland.
There isn't a party or organisation in Poland having territorial demands towards Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania. There are numerous organisations doing it towards Poland in Germany.

As I already said, there are crackpots in every country, even in Poland.

Point to any party or organisation in Poland having territorial demands towards Lithuania, Ukraine or Belarus.
I can easly point to organisations in Germany having territorial demands towards Poland, Czechoslovakia.

And we're not proud of these organizations - believe it or not, there're relatively obscure

They are parto of political spectrum in Germany. They aren't part of political spectrum in Poland.
Obviously Germany has much more nationalism.

So every pipeline that doesn't lead through Poland is an effort to blackmail her? Please.

A pipeline that observes point out will make possible for Russia to block access to Poland while not risking losing money does.

If you apply the same counting method to the USA, there should be at the moment live around 10 000 000 poles in the states.

Which they are:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf
Polish1,2 9,366,051

Why should they get help from the German state?

In the same way other victims of German genocide like Jews receive help in cultural and educational matters.

[Tailz]

Shade2 wrote:

We paid the Soviets and your share was 15%.

So you agree that you never paid us and that Poland never signed any treaty ending the reperations issue.

You keep trying to use this loop hole to make a point. In a way your right, reparations were not paid directly to Poland when it was under Soviet control, the payments were made to the Soviet Governing Authority of the time, then the Soviets passed on an amount of that money to Poland.

But still the fact remains that Germany set aside money for payment of reparations to the Soviet Union of which Poland at the time was a part (acording to what I have read in the thread so far this is my assumption).

It is a shame that Poland got screwed by the Soviets.

The fact Germany didn't pay money directly to Poland is a loop hole that your trying to drive a buss through - but at the time all this was going on, Poland was not a politically happy place, didn't the Government in exile get invited back by the Soviets only to be locked up as spies or something when they arrived??

[87522]

Oups, now the National Democrats are called League of Polish Families. If you want to inform yourself about your country's political system:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ ... 33,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Polish_Families

... but I guess that's just German propaganda anyway...

There are numerous organisations doing it towards Poland in Germany.

might be, so name some

They are parto of political spectrum in Germany. They aren't part of political spectrum in Poland.

Today anti-semitic parties don't recieve a 16% support in national elections in Germany.

[DonVito115]

Shade shut up plz you are pathetic.

[Shade2]

No wiesz nie uważam tak, ale skoro masz wyprany mózg z miłosci do ojczyzny to nie będe się spierał

[Shade2]

Oups, now the National Democrats are called League of Polish Families.

So you invented a name and now are choose to attack some party that really exists ? I see progress in your actions.
I see no similiarity to German neo-nazi parties. The only such party in Poland with similiar agenda would be Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski(although even they don't make such territorial demands as Germans do-or at least I never heard they did)

might be, so name some

Sure thing, for example:
http://www.nrhz.de/flyer/beitrag.php?id=1393
Einer der mitgliederstärksten Akademikerverbände Deutschlands, die Deutsche Burschenschaft (DB), erhebt in einer aktuellen Publikation territoriale Ansprüche gegenüber Polen und Russland ("deutsche Ostgebiete"). Auch Österreich sowie Teile der Tschechischen Republik ("Sudetenland"), Belgiens, Italiens und Dänemarks seien "deutsch".

Today anti-semitic parties don't recieve a 16% support in national elections in Germany.

I don't know about antit-semitic parties, but those anti-polish parties sure do get votes in Germany:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5349696.stm

Final results in German regional polls show the far right has won seats in an eastern state and Chancellor Angela Merkel's party has performed poorly.

The National Democratic Party (NPD) won 7.3% in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, surpassing the 5% needed to enter the state parliament.

In a way your right, reparations were not paid directly to Poland when it was under Soviet control, the payments were made to the Soviet Governing Authority of the time, then the Soviets passed on an amount of that money to Poland.

The dealings of Germany and Soviets are their own issue. Poland never signed a deal regarding the compensations with Germany so the case is open. Poland only signed agreement that no territorial issues will be made, leaving sadly the Sorbs under German rule.Neverthless this is done, and nobody questions the treaty on borders in Poland. Unlike in Germany.

[Tailz]

Shade2 wrote:

The dealings of Germany and Soviets are their own issue. Poland never signed a deal regarding the compensations with Germany so the case is open. Poland only signed agreement that no territorial issues will be made, leaving sadly the Sorbs under German rule.Neverthless this is done, and nobody questions the treaty on borders in Poland. Unlike in Germany.

I was not discussing treaties on borders, purely on reparations payments. When payments were made, or the deals signed, Poland was under Soviet authority, so as part of that soviet system Germany made reparations, and Poland got money.

The reason Poland never signed a deal directly with Germany about reparations is because the Soviets did it for Poland while Poland was under Soviet control.

Now that Poland is free of the Soviets your sticking your hand out and asking for more cash - double dipping?

Why should Germany be forced to make reparations again, when it has already done so. If the Poles feel that they didn't get enough they should have taken up the issue with the SovietAuthority of the time. Not years later, heaping the blame for World War II on second and third Generation Germans who had nothing to do with World War II.

[Shade2]

When payments were made, or the deals signed, Poland was under Soviet authority, so as part of that soviet system Germany made reparations, and Poland got money.

Nope, Poland didn't get any money from Soviets. In fact Soviets drained Poland in period 1945-1953 out of 14 billion dollars in today's money.

s is because the Soviets did it for Poland

Soviets never did anything for Poland.

Now that Poland is free of the Soviets your sticking your hand out and asking for more cash - double dipping?

What double dipping. Poland never received any compensations.

Why should Germany be forced to make reparations again, when it has already done so

If Germany was foolish to sign a foolish treaty with Soviets it is Germany's problem. It was foolish enough to try to conquer the world two times, so I am not suprised at this. However Poland never received any proper compensation and it would be decent for Germany to repay the damage it has done.

Not years later, heaping the blame for World War II on second and third Generation Germans who had nothing to do with World War II.

Since Germany freely does it towards Poland, then I see no reason why Poland can't do it towards Germany.

[Tailz]

Uh, I'm going to stop beating my head against this brick wall.

Yes Shade2, Germany is the evil empire and its comming to get *YOU*

[Shade2]

Yes Shade2, Germany is the evil empire and its comming to get *YOU*

As I can only walk a few meters from my home to witness the devestation made by Germans on my country that isn't a particulary amusing sentence. Had Germany not devestated my homeland and murdered milions of my people, we would live much more prosperous lives.

[Ombrageux]

What would it take for Germans to be redeemed, Shade? Perhaps if we'd sterilized them all or implemented the Morgenthau plan?

[Shade2]

What would it take for Germans to be redeemed, Shade?

The return to pre-nationalistic German states and abandoning the destructive cultural traits of Prussia, rejecting its legacy, accepting the wrong-doings in regards to Poland rather then soaking in hatefull nationalism towards it as it is today, denying "victim" status to ancestors of colonists settled on Polish territory by Nazi Germany, Imperial Germany, Prussia, that were sent back to Germany, compensating material devestation made in Partitions(Soviet Russia did, for your information), WW1 and WW2. Engaging in debate over the reasons for racist policies, ethnic cleansing and gencoide made on Poles by Germany in Partitions, WW1, WW2 in manner similiar made to another victims of Germany like Jews.

[87522]

This will be my last post in this thread.

So you invented a name and now are choose to attack some party that really exists ? I see progress in your actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_D ... 8Poland%29

Currently the only significant party that declares itself a successor to the endecja is Liga Polskich Rodzin (League of Polish Families), founded in 2001. Since then, in various elections, it has garnered 8-16% of the votes.

endecja = N.D. = Narodowa Demokracja = National Democrats

I see no similiarity to German neo-nazi parties.

Members of the League of Polish Families' youth wing regularly carry Nazi placards on demonstrations.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ ... 33,00.html

In February 2004, Jan Maria Jackowski, a leader of the LPR, was elected chairman of the city council. In one of his books he warned against Poland becoming a “land reserve” for “one of the sides in the Middle East conflict,” alluding to potential Jewish settlement in Poland.

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2004/poland.htm

...I do

Einer der mitgliederstärksten Akademikerverbände Deutschlands, die Deutsche Burschenschaft (DB), erhebt in einer aktuellen Publikation territoriale Ansprüche gegenüber Polen und Russland ("deutsche Ostgebiete"). Auch Österreich sowie Teile der Tschechischen Republik ("Sudetenland"), Belgiens, Italiens und Dänemarks seien "deutsch".

An organization of 15000 people in a country of 82 million... I'm impressed.

Quote:

Not years later, heaping the blame for World War II on second and third Generation Germans who had nothing to do with World War II.

Since Germany freely does it towards Poland, then I see no reason why Poland can't do it towards Germany.

?

The return to pre-nationalistic German states and abandoning the destructive cultural traits of Prussia, rejecting its legacy, accepting the wrong-doings in regards to Poland rather then soaking in hatefull nationalism towards it as it is today, denying "victim" status to ancestors of colonists settled on Polish territory by Nazi Germany, Imperial Germany, Prussia, that were sent back to Germany, compensating material devestation made in Partitions(Soviet Russia did, for your information), WW1 and WW2. Engaging in debate over the reasons for racist policies, ethnic cleansing and gencoide made on Poles by Germany in Partitions, WW1, WW2 in manner similiar made to another victims of Germany like Jews.

I won't discuss that any further... read your own post and decide who's nationalistic. Your impression of an "Imperial Germany" is ridiculous, Germans have been living in your "recovered territories" since the middle ages. I could ask you in how far Heimatvertriebene were not victims, being expelled from a land where they've been living for hundereds of years. If Anglo-Saxons would suddently be expelled from England by, say, Celts, wouldn't they be victims just because it wasn't really *their* land?

Of course, given Germany's history in the 20th century, it is wrong to blame modern Poland for that, but saying that those people were all "colonists" or is just idiotic.

Now you'll probably just counter with some nationalistic (to use your fav. word) arguments and condemn me for stating that the sky is blue, but I don't care; I think you're some stubborn Polish right-winger who projects his and his country's problems onto Germany, which is pathetic.

[Shade2]

endecja = N.D. = Narodowa Demokracja = National Democrats

You mean the party of Romand Dmowski, the person Roman Giertych (the leader of LPR) said wouldn't be accepted into LPR ? Endecja doesn't exist anymore. You have to learn more about history it seems.

...I do

What do you do ? Dodging the issue ? Please show any organisation or party in Poland that has territorial claims towards Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus as similiar to claims made by German organisations and parties towards Poland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Eas ... es_Society

its founders von Hansemann, Kennemann and von Tiedemann.[5] Its main aims were the promotion of Germanization of Poles living in Prussia and destruction of Polish national identity in German eastern provinces.[6] Contrary to many similar nationalist organizations created in that period, the Ostmarkenverein had relatively close ties with the government and local administration,[6][7] which made it largely successful, even though it opposed both the policy of seeking some modo vivendi with the Poles pursued by Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg[3] and Leo von Caprivi's policies of relaxation of anti-Polish measures.[8] While of limited significance and often overrated, the organization formed a notable part of German anti-democratic pluralist part of the political landscape of the Wilhelmine era.[4]
Initially formed in Poznań, in 1896 its main headquarters was moved to Berlin. In 1901 it had roughly 21,000 members, the number rose to 48,000 in 1913, though some authors claim the membership was as high as 220,000.[9]

For instance, the Settlement Commission throughout the 27 years of its existence managed to plant about 25,000 German families on 124,000 ha of land in Greater Poland and Pomerania.

The ethnic structure of Silesia changed. The tools of planned national changes became schools, institutions, and churches. German became official language, and only German teachers were allowed into schools. In 1764 marriages to people not speaking German were forbidden, as well as employing them at noble estates. An important role in Germanisation of Silesia played the so called fridrich colonisation, In the whole year of 1763 61,000 Germans were settled and in next 40 years circa 110,000.
Dorota Borowicz Mapy narodowościowe Górnego Śląska od połowy XIX wieku do II Wojny Światowej
[Nationalitätenkarten Oberschlesiens von der Mitte des 19. Jhs. bis zum Zweiten Weltkrieg]
Dorota Borowicz. Wrocław: Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Wrocławskiego, 2004. 181 S.:
Karten; 29 cm. ISBN 8322925697. Englisch- und deutschsprachige Zusammenfassungen.
Reihe: Acta Universitatis Wratislaviensis, ISSN 0239-6661

I could ask you in how far Heimatvertriebene were not victims, being expelled from a land where they've been living for hundereds of years.

Hundreds of years ? Like Steinbach I guess ? LOL.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ldren.html
Within a few short months, the Warthegau was cleared of Poles (and, of course, Jews), the Polish language was prohibited, and street signs were changed into German. By the summer of 1941, the Warthegau had been settled with 200,000 ethnic Germans, and it looked as if it had never been part of Poland.


http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?la ... d=10005473
Following the annexation of western Poland to Germany, Hitler ordered the "Germanization" of Polish territory. Nazi governors (such as Arthur Greiser in the Warthegau and Albert Forster in Danzig-West Prussia) expelled hundreds of thousands of Poles from their homes in the Generalgouvernement. More than 500,000 ethnic Germans were then settled in these areas.

You nationalist propaganda is easly disproven with facts. And 1939 to 1945 doesn't make "hundreds of years".

and his country's problems onto Germany, which is pathetic.

Because of course, partitions, German attempts to eradicate Poles in Imperial Germany, pillage of Poland during WW1, extermination of 6 milion Polish citizens in WW2, complete destruction of the country and razing Polish capitol to the ground as hundreds of other cities and towns didn't effect Poland at all.