[alyster]

My guess is USA will dump something old there and make quick bucks, since Poland is happy to buy anything that'd make Russia upset.

This something old is around 40 F-16s if not speaking about missiles. Norway, Italy and rest of Europe gets brand new JSFs or Eurofighter Typhoons, but Poland is stuck with F-16s for next 15-20 years Currently they operate MiG-29s. I do not know in how good shape they are and how well are they with spare parts, but the fighter is not much worse then the 16, some say even better.

Poland started to take deliveries in end of 2006. I don't get it why they went for the old 16 while Jas-39, Typhoon are on the market and JSF and Rafale are just coming out.

Anyway if Russia so so frigging scared of few NATO defence systems, then what should NATO members do? Russian generals, politicans promise all the time to restore the borders of former Soviet Union. These people promise a war to NATO. And this is part of the reason czechs and poles and other eastern-europeans have to think of having better relations with the US.

[Shade2]

Anyway I don't understand the use of these installations, I've doubts that Iran, NK & Co. will be able to hit Central Europe in next decades and Eastern Europe countries (where Shahab-3 missiles can arrive) aren't place where wasting expensive nuclear missilies.

The installations in question aren't made to protect Poland or Czech Republic but to protect against missiles that would be launched towards USA and their trajectory would put them in range of defences installed in Central Europe.

I don't want US playing the role of global cop any longer

USA has brought freedom and prosperity to my country. People no longer starve, do not stand in lines to buy bread, aren't murdered for their political beliefs. I see no reason to have any ill will towards USA. Russia on the other hand has for centuries murdered our people, destroyed our country and tried to destroy our nation.
In all its history Russia has never made anything towards Poland that could be viewed in positive light.

Great - let's stuff EU with more weapons - more weapons is always good.

The German dominated club of Russophiles can't decide what military bases we will have installed in Poland thankfully. And I am sure it disturbs some pathetic Eurasian proponents that dreamt of Eurasian Empire challenging USA that USA will now have strenghtened its presence on European continent, further making their plans doomed.

since Poland is happy to buy anything that'd make Russia upset.

Everything that makes Poland more difficult to invade makes Russia upset.

I don't get it why they went for the old 16 while Jas-39, Typhoon are on the market and JSF and Rafale are just coming out. Eh?

None of those made interesting proposals within demands issued by Polish government. We aren't getting "old" F-16 we are getting new models Block 50/52 Plus also called F-16U.
As to JSF-it is stil in development, Polish Air Force hopes to buy it near future(10-20 years). Of course other factors are also counted-European countries have proven to be unreliable towards treaties with Poland and USA is reliable and loyal partner of Poland, often defending Polish interests(mainly due to shared history, values and certain significance of 10 million Polish Americans in USA)
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html


The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the McDonnell Douglas JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead. Other features include passive missile warning, terrain-referenced navigation, and provisions for the 600 US gal (2,271 litre) external fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks.

Other features of the aircraft include an on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS), the AN/APX-113 advanced electronic interrogator/transponder IFF system, helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS), ASPIS internal electronic countermeasures suite (full provisions), the Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radar, which is the latest version of the F-16C/D radar. This radar features significant improvements in detection range, resolution, growth potential, and supportability. Furthermore, application of advanced processing techniques enhances the radar's ability to operate in dense electromagnetic environments and resist jamming better than all previous models.

The V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities. These include:

* 30 percent increase in detection range;
* Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference;
* Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode);
* Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode;
* Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode;
* Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons;
* Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode;
* Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.

In general, this radar offers a 5X increase in processing speed and 10X increase in memory compared to the current AN/APG-68 radar and provides large growth potential.

[Gletkin]

Russian generals, politicans promise all the time to restore the borders of former Soviet Union. These people promise a war to NATO.

Yeltsin wanted to invade eastern Europe?
"Abandon Communism and come join 'The International Community'"!
So Russia does just that and what do they get in return? NATO expands right up to its borders! Even pro-western "reformist" Russians were angered by that move.
By no means did this start with "the neo-Soviet" Putin.
Neither is fear and suspicion of NATO limited to Communists or anti-western nationalists.

[alyster]

Read the "The Russian Hand". Yeltsin offered to Clinton a secret pact not to accept Baltic countries into NATO when they met in Helsinki.

Secondly I'm not talking about Putin and Yeltsin. They aren't the only ones Russia has. Rather some old minded military generals and people like Å hirinovski and also some others too. Sadly it has proven to be a successful tactic to promise the nation to restore the old borders, so too many people promise it. This should not be forgotten nor ignored.

And Shade, only thing impressive on your F-16s are the Helmet mounted aiming systems HMCS. If you wouldn't have these, you'd be better off with the old Mig-29s, if you are able to keep them in service.
If to chose an old plane, better go for the 15, F-15K or F-15I. Finland and few others chose the F-18. This I don't fully understand. However Western-Europe is looking to change out the F-16s soon. Only Belgium wants to expand their lifetime.

[Shade2]

So Russia does just that and what do they get in return? NATO expands right up to its borders! Even pro-western "reformist" Russians were angered by that move.

Why ? Even "pro-western" "reformists" believed that Poland is part of Russian sphere of influence ?

[Gletkin]

Read the "The Russian Hand". Yeltsin offered to Clinton a secret pact not to accept Baltic countries into NATO when they met in Helsinki.

So Yelsin asked Clinton not to accept the Baltic states into NATO? What of it? Finland was barred from NATO membership to avoid antagonizing Stalin, and they've never ended up part of "the Russian orbit".
Again, Russians of all persuasions didn't (and still don't) want a threatening military alliance right on the borders of their country. Russia has no natural defenses to its west (e.g. mountain ranges) and suffered much more than the other nations of eastern Europe from the invasions of Napoleon and Hitler. Invasion from the west has thus always been an issue of concern to Russians.

Why ? Even "pro-western" "reformists" believed that Poland is part of Russian sphere of influence ?

They why choose pro-western Poles over pro-western Russians? Russia is much larger and richer in natural resources. It would seem to better serve the American elite's interests to strengthen the "reformist" camp in Russia rather than indirectly strengthen the nationalist camp by alarming the Russian people via NATO expansion.

[Shade2]

They why choose pro-western Poles over pro-western Russians?

You didn't answer my question. Did pro-western "reforms" believe Poland is part of Russian sphere of influence ?

in Russia rather than indirectly strengthen the nationalist camp by alarming the Russian people via NATO expansion.

Do Russian people believe Poland is their property ?

want a threatening military alliance right on the borders of their country.

Threatening ? Russia plans to invade Central Europe ?

Finland was barred from NATO membership to avoid antagonizing Stalin, and they've never ended up part of "the Russian orbit".

Finland owes its existance to Russia, is on its periphery and has different relations to Russia(for example Finnish troops helped to crush Polish uprising against Russian occupation)

Russia has no natural defenses to its west

Neither has Poland natural defences to the East.

and suffered much more than the other nations of eastern Europe from the invasions of Napoleon

What about invasions of Russia. Oh, evil Napoleon invaded poor Russia that only wanted to keep what it conquered from Poland and Lithuania a few years back. Perhaps a thought should occur in Russia that every invasion it "suffered" was result of its imperialism(like sharing Central Europe between Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany in 1939).

[alyster]

they've[Finland] never ended up part of "the Russian orbit".

Can't say the same about Chechoslovakia. This is the one country that shouldn't have been behind the iron curtin, however things didn't go as they were planed.

[Gletkin]

Can't say the same about Chechoslovakia. This is the one country that shouldn't have been behind the iron curtin, however things didn't go as they were planed.

But the Iron Curtain no longer exists. Whereas the US wanted to resurrect the cordon sanitaire. But against what? Bolshevism's collapsed!

You didn't answer my question. Did pro-western "reforms" believe Poland is part of Russian sphere of influence ?

YOUR contention. YOU prove it to ME.
Meanwhile, you didn't answer MY question. Assuming that your allegation that pro-western Russians want to conquer pro-western Poles is true, why should US policy-makers care? How are "US interests" served by favoring pro-western Poles over pro-western Russians?

Do Russian people believe Poland is their property ?

Why are you asking ME this? If you believe that Russia's capitalist democrats want to conquer and absorb Poland today (as opposed to back during the Russian Civil War) where's your proof?

[alyster]

But the Iron Curtain no longer exists. Whereas the US wanted to resurrect the cordon sanitaire. But against what? Bolshevism's collapsed!

Then why bring in an exaple from stalinism, NATO and Finland?

[Gletkin]

Then why bring in an exaple from stalinism, NATO and Finland?

Because the capitalist democratic west faced a greater enemy in Stalin than they did in Yeltsin or Putin. If you can even consider Yeltsin and Putin enemies of the west. And yet, the west is being far more aggressive in NATO expansion toward post-Soviet Russia than they ever were against the USSR. Like I said, the Russians feel sucker-punched. Under the Soviets, NATO was kept at bay. But once they heeded western appeals and (however imperfectly) genuinely tried to implement capitalist democracy, NATO goes zipping right up to Russia's borders.

[alyster]

So NATO is an enemy?

[The Antiist]

Anything similar to such a reaction as stated in that article would be an essentially exaggerating one, but one also has to realise that the installment of missle shields in this case is pretty dubious. At this very moment there is no imminent threat present concerning missle strikes, so this is merely a preemptive act. What this does is automatically exclude dialogue since it implies violence is the only remaining option to secure ourselves. When you exclude dialogue you're making a very dangerous decision which also automatically sends a message to those excluded from this offer. What this is, is an instrument of war while the globalisation of economic power is on the rise. These things simply do not go together, for a precondition for the world to become smaller must be for our minds to expand.

Poland and the Czech Republic said Monday that they probably would agree to having parts of a U.S. global missile defense system on their soil, and Moscow warned that the decision could make them targets of a Russian missile strike.

Who exactly made this warning anyway? Putin and the Russian general at least made far less extreme comments.

[Shade2]

But against what? Bolshevism's collapsed!

I can point out even on this forum to Russian users who claim Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, Latvia belong to Russia. There is much nationalism in Russia and little evidence of any attempts in Russia to stop it. If Russia doesn't want defensive alliances in its neighbourhood then it should stop its imperialist policies and fight nationalism in its country.

YOUR contention. YOU prove it to ME.

Nope, it was you who claimed "reformers" were angry because Poland made an indepdent decision that makes invasion of it by Russia more difficult.

Assuming that your allegation that pro-western Russians want to conquer pro-western Poles is true

Please point to any sentence of mine that says that.

How are "US interests" served by favoring pro-western Poles over pro-western Russians?

It doesn't speak much good about "pro-western Russians" if they demand occupation of Poland by Russia as you suggest. I doubt they are much "pro-western" if they harbour such imperialistic desires.

If you believe that Russia's capitalist democrats want to conquer and absorb Poland today (as opposed to back during the Russian Civil War) where's your proof?

It is you who claimed that Polish decision to make potential Russian invasion more difficult angered Russians.

Who exactly made this warning anyway? Putin and the Russian general at least made far less extreme comments.

Russian Generals Nikolaj Solowcow and Jurij Balujewski .

[The Antiist]

Russian Generals Nikolaj Solowcow and Jurij Balujewski.

Source?

[Shade2]

http://www.radio.cz/en/article/88537

on Monday Nikolay Solovtsov - the general in charge of Russia's strategic missile defence force - indicated the type of measures his country might take. He said, for instance, that any US bases in Poland and the Czech Republic will be added to his country's target list, and has even threatened that Russia might withdraw from the Cold War-era INF treaty banning medium-range missiles.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 2/027.html

General Yury Baluyevsky, the country's top military officer, said the United States was expanding its economic, political and military presence in Russia's traditional zones of influence, and described it as the top national security threat.

Baluyevsky, chief of the General Staff, said Russia now faced even greater military threats than during the Cold War and that the nation needed a new military doctrine to respond to these challenges, according to a speech posted on the Defense Ministry's web site Friday.

So, a more secure Poland is seen by Russian military as "threat" to their interests, not only that but also he claims Poland as "Russia's zone of interest". It seems the idea of invading Poland is alive in circles of Russian military.

[ZeusIrae]

That Poland and Czech Republic will become targets in any russian plans is obvious.

If a nuclear war breaks out those countries will be top priority targets because of their missile defense systems.It isn't complicated to understand.It's not a threat,it's the statement of the obvious.

You have to undertsand that the Radar in Czech Republic and the missiles in Poland make the US safer not those countries.

[Nattering Nabob]

I can only imagine the right wing outcry if Russia placed pieces of it's missile defence system in Canada or Mexico.

China is upgrading it's measly missile force and some right wing Americans are crying that it is being warlike.

Again the American right wing either has no idea that it's actions are beligerent by their own standards or they don't care.

[The Antiist]

Thanks for those sources and clarification. However, I do not agree entirely with the way you are trying to portray it to be, Shade2.

So, a more secure Poland is seen by Russian military as "threat" to their interests,

The question is really why Poland insists on securing its country and against whom. I admit these reactions coming from Russia seem to be far out of line, but isn't this missle shield really as useless at this moment that it merely is rather symbolic for the fact that they're trying to distance themselves from some particular countries? I could see why Russia would view this as somewhat provocative.

not only that but also he claims Poland as "Russia's zone of interest".

It actually read 'traditional zones of influence', which basically notes the historic connection between these countries and should not be seen as an imperialistic idea that Russia still views those countries as essentially theirs.

[Shade2]

The question is really why Poland insists on securing its country and against whom.

The only country able to resist Russia is USA. Thus any closer alliance with USA makes Poland safer.

which basically notes the historic connection between these countries

Yeah, right in the same way Germany would claim Israel is its "traditional zone of influence" because of Holocaust. The only connection Poland has to Russia is the fact that Russia invaded us, murdered our people and exploited our country.

Again the American right wing either has no idea that it's actions are beligerent

What is beligerent ? Is Russia planning to invade USA and Poland that it considers defencive systems a threat ?