[alyster]

US had to look out for Soviet blocks economy - they were massive conumers of American made crops. Untill 1960s the union starved, from 1960s till the end of the union, it bought in crops from different American countries.

It's a funny thing how the countries of workers and peasents weren't able to feed themselves.

[Shade2]

Untill 1960s the union starved, from 1960s till the end of the union, it bought in crops from different American countries.

With Polish money btw. It also plundered Polish agriculture industry. You couldn't get decent meat because it all went to Soviet Russia. This actually lead to riots and even death sentences for people who illegaly hoarded meat products.

[Jaksiemasz]

Excuse me ? I don't recall Polish government of Prime Minister Kazimierz Sabbat and President Edward Bernard Raczyński having any massive loans from USA.
Or are you confusing Polish government with Soviet puppets installed in Warsaw on corpses of Poles murdered by Red Army and NKWD ?

And what is the big difference between Soviet puppet "Polish People's Republic" and US-puppet "Polish Republic" ?

It's a funny thing how the countries of workers and peasents weren't able to feed themselves.

Pretty provocative. USSR exported oil and imported crops - it's a trade , you know. Or should I state like this : "it's a funny thing how the hi-tech countries of the first world weren't able to supply themselves with oil" ?

[Shade2]

And what is the big difference between Soviet puppet "Polish People's Republic" and US-puppet "Polish Republic" ?

Since there is no puppet Polish Republic of US I can't tell.
Is it from some science fiction story you read ?

[Jaksiemasz]

Since there is no puppet Polish Republic of US I can't tell.
Is it from some science fiction story you read ?

No it is from the acting of Polish officials since (UA-elections, NATO, anti-Russian rhitorics, support of any US military action) that I see. "PPR" was not Soviet puppet state. "PR" is not US puppet state. Officially

[alyster]

In 1980, if Poland would have said to Moscow 'screw u, we're out of here', then...I think the way the upsrising in East-Berlin in 1953 was put down explains what would have happened.
Now Poland and also Baltics can easily turn their backs on US international politics and get closer with Brussel. It's a freedom. Altough it is better to play double game wih Brussel and DC at the moment.

[Shade2]

"PPR" was not Soviet puppet state.

Sure...The facts like ministers apointed by Soviet regime, every minister and general with Soviet "advisor", 60-90% of officer corps made of Russian officers, Soviet generals demanding "correct" political choices or threatening to "crush disobedience with tanks"(direct quote), NKWD murdering thousands of potential political opponents-surely those minor facts support your opinion.

"PR" is not US puppet state. Officially Wink

Please point to any action where USA enforced its will on Poland, please point to any Polish political organisation reporting that Poland is a puppet state, please point to any media reporting USA controling Poland.
But I guess you can't imagine that countries can be friends to each other, perhaps you would If you would look beyond Russian example.

No it is from the acting of Polish officials since

Since when similiar opinions mean a country is a puppet state. Poland and USA share the same cultural values and view world in similiar way. Thus they agee with each other.

UA-election

Why shouldn't Poland support free and democratic Ukraine ?

NATO

Why shouldn't Poland join a defensive alliance, especially in the view of rising Russian nationalism and history of Russian invasion of Central Europe ?

anti-Russian rhitorics

Poland has no "anti-Russian" rhetorics, Poland supports free and democratic Russia, sadly Russia once again turns into dictatorship, for all the ill of its people.

support of any US military action

So far every US military action was in line with Polish view of world situation.

Now Poland and also Baltics can easily turn their backs on US international politics and get closer with Brussel. It's a freedom. Altough it is better to play double game wih Brussel and DC at the moment.

Unlike USA that has a lot of people symphatic to Poland, EU is filled with people who dislike it or even hate it. Also EU has many russophiles in it or cynical politicians wanting to profit from Russian money. EU is also plagued by anti-americanism. Those factors mean that Poland's role is to neutralise attempts within EU to strenghten ties with Russia in order to oppose USA. Poland must remain an anchor of American presence in Europe and its ally. Those who wish to limit American presence and influence in Europe-Germany and Russia but also France represent countries that also are hostile to Polish interests. Thus Poland is interested in alliance with USA.

[Jaksiemasz]

The thing I "like" about ex-Soviet and current-US puppets is that they are open-air cold war museum. I live by myself in it The way they changed rhitorics to directly opposite after 89 is very similar to episode from "1984" when a public orator, mid-sentence, changes the name of the enemy from Eurasia to Eastasia (still speaking as if nothing had changed)
"we've always been at war with Eastasia.". Yeah You've always been US ally and PPR was historic mistake, no doubts. Regards to Big Brother Bush. Let me play "vice verse" game with you ok ? here we go :

Why shouldn't Poland support free and democratic Ukraine ?

Why shouldn't Poland support free and democratic Czechoslovakia (1967) ?

Why shouldn't Poland join a defensive alliance, especially in the view of rising Russian nationalism and history of Russian invasion of Central Europe ?

Why shouldn't Poland join a defensive alliance (WTO), especially in the view of rising US imperianalism and history of US invasion of Europe ?

Poland has no "anti-Russian" rhetorics, Poland supports free and democratic Russia, sadly Russia once again turns into dictatorship, for all the ill of its people.

USSR has no "anti-US" rhetorics, USSR supports free and democratic US, sadly US once again turns into dictatorship, for all the ill of its people.

So far every US military action was in line with Polish view of world situation.

So far every USSR military action was in line with Polish view of world situation (Czechoslovakia, 1967)

Please point to any action where USA enforced its will on Poland, please point to any Polish political organisation reporting that Poland is a puppet state, please point to any media reporting USA controling Poland.
But I guess you can't imagine that countries can be friends to each other, perhaps you would If you would look beyond Russian example.

Please point to any action where USA enforced its will on Poland, please point to any Polish political organisation reporting that Poland is a puppet state, please point to any media reporting USA controling Poland But I guess you can't imagine that countries can be friends to each other,
[/quote]
Please point to any action where USSR enforced its will on Poland, please point to any Polish political organisation reporting that Poland is a puppet state, during 1945-1980 . But I guess you can't imagine that countries can be friends to each other,

please point to any media reporting USA controling Poland.

Open any Russian media.

perhaps you would If you would look beyond Russian example.

I don;t need to look beyond Russian example to see that. Russian-Chinese relations are well. As well as with Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela (continue?)

The facts like ministers apointed by Soviet regime, every minister and general with Soviet "advisor", 60-90% of officer corps made of Russian officers, Soviet generals demanding "correct" political choices or threatening to "crush disobedience with tanks"(direct quote), NKWD murdering thousands of potential political opponents-surely those minor facts support your opinion.

Please show me links proving all that cold-war-time propaganda.

Poland must remain an anchor of American presence in Europe

No doubs, Poland is NOT US puppet state. You really love Big Brother !

Now Poland and also Baltics can easily turn their backs on US international politics and get closer with Brussel. It's a freedom.

O'rly ? I guess I will die from oldness when it would happen Btw, if I'm not mistaken you've (both Pl and Ee) joined EU, not US in 2004

[London Calling]

Comrade Shade2 wrote:

Excuse me ?

Were you not aware that your favourite President Reagan bailed out the Polish government in the 1980s? It is pretty well known... well, maybe not to the stupid Polish people who erected a statue of the man that they claim brought down the communist regime. Pretty funny, I bet you were one of them.

[Maas]

oh come on....
Things happen when the reporters are gone.
When Poland agreed to send troops the US and Poland probably agreed on doing something else too. One thing is for shure: not much happens for free on this kapitalistic planet.

[Shade2]

In contrast, the USSR never pressured Poland in sending troops to fight in 1980s Afghanistan.

Vasili, this was simply because they were used to crush uprising in Poland against Soviet occupation.
Puppet forces of Soviet created PPR were used to crush uprising in Czechoslovakia.

All countries that sent troops to Iraq have regimes that are puppets of America.

Vasili just because countries agree with each other deosn't mean they are puppets.

Like Walesa?

No, like Leopold Okulicki. In times of Walesa, Soviet Union used puppets to murder opponents like Przemysław Czaja or Popiełuszko.

[Shade2]

What about Henryk Gradowski?

Vasili- Okulicki was a Polish freedom fighter, Gradowski a soviet spy who was killed while trying to escape Polish police, so let's just say that is a bit of difference. Although of cource Poland didn't had much problems before 1939 with Soviet spies, due to complete rejection of communism among Polish society.
Of course Soviet Union honoured the spy with monument once they occupied Poland, thankfully it no longer exists, as it was removed.

Gomulka as well as Ulbricht that persuaded intervention in Czechoslovakia. Soviets had initially been reluctant.

Yes I am sure poor innocent Soviets cried to bed about the evil Soviets such as Gomulka or Ulbricht they installed in occupied countries by murder and terror.