So where are they, Mr Blair? [& Mr Bush] - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#8115
The distinct lack of chemical weapons found in Iraq is starting to leave quite a bitter taste... and if they are never found (whether they exist or not) an already cynical world is not going to believe the word of the British and American goverments for the next 20 years.

The Independent wrote:So where are they, Mr Blair?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush administration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services – one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weapons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer – oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD – and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential – into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.


Originally published here: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=398837
By Alhazen Al-Rashid
#8117
Thats ridiculous..No one with a shred of intellect expected WMD to be found in the first days/weeks of the operation. It took years to find weapons the first time. Its unlikely we will find them, without breaking the people who know where they are to lead us to them. I also dont think ANYONE doubts Iraq has multitudes of illegal weapons. They are very good at hiding them, however .
User avatar
By Siberian Fox
#8118
One of the point the article makes is that if Saddam had them, and was going to lose the war don't you think he would have used them? He has lost an awful lot.

Living a life of luxury in a different palace for every day of the week, and now he is probably hiding out in some dusty basement somewhere. If the USA was about to be defeated by an invading [Canadian? lol :lol: ] army I'm sure that they wouldn't hesitate to use WMD to ensure their survival. It hasn't happened, which (albeit circumstantial) is evidence that they may not exist in any useable capacity - thus defying the whole pretext for war.
By Alhazen Al-Rashid
#8120
probably because he was smart enough to know, despite what the yes-men told him, that chemical weapons are largely ineffective and can only hurt civillian areas in large numbers. the U.S. military is largely impervious to CW/BW attack, and he would have still lost the war. However if he had used them, it would have solidified support for the U.S. and brought the entire world behind the US and opposed to his plight. Thats not something he wanted to do.
User avatar
By Boondock Saint
#8122
Fox ...

Here is an analogy.

You, I and the other forum members are all part of a tribe. Someone in the tribe has seen you use poisen tipped arrows ... I get all ticked off and challenge you to a fight to the death.

Naturally, you accept.

Now, you think there will be the usual ritual before the fight and plan to go and get your poisen tipped arrows but will only use them if need be. BUT I jump over the fire and smash your head in with my hammer ...

Now ... you not using your poisen tipped arrows is hardly proof that you didnt have them ...

I have heard others say that Saddams defeat was not only due to the US being a modern army but also that his own army picked up and shipped off for various reasons. Now ... if Saddam couldnt trust his generals to stand and fight then how could he trust them to use chemical weapons?

Furthermore ... I think Saddam may have believed his own lies ... there have been many weapons so far found hidden including as I understand it 51 Migs ... yes 51 hidden Migs ... now why would Saddam bother to hide the Migs if he didnt think they would be of further use in the future? You dont expect me to believe he was thinking of the next Iraqi regimes needing an air force do you?

Most likely Saddam thought he could pull another surprise survival trick (which, since he is not dead cant be proven he hasnt) in which he comes out on top ... which he has ... in every war thus far that he has engaged in.

Link

So ... if he bothers to hide his airforce for further use then why wouldnt he hide chemicals for further use?

IMO the US ground forces, air forces, intelligence and covert operations (including the alleged bribes paid to Iraqi generals) led to Saddam having nothing but paper and rhetoric when in fact he could have had much more.

That chemical weapons werent used and have not been found as of yet means little to me ... there are so many possibilities that all we can do is speculate ... and I am loath to do so ... though I do it well.
User avatar
By Siberian Fox
#8134
Sorry to get technical on you, but the link you have posted isn't proof of anything. The 'photograph' is an image that looks like it's come out of a computer game and the poster has only given the source as retuers but provided no link. So basically all I have is his word of someone I don't know who seems to like playing videogames :eh:

Original news sources are more credible than "so and so said" links - and even they make mistakes.

It would not surprise me if the story were true, but I don't accept your linking them to WMD on the basis that from expirience gained from the first battle of the Persian gulf Iraq well knew that any planes in the air would be shot down and any on the ground would be blown up - so the logical thing to do is hide them.

As to Alhazen Al-Rashid's and your other comments on chemical weapons I already said in my original post "albeit circumstantial [evidence]" WRT their non-use.

The proof - as the saying goes - is in the pudding. When I see weapons of mass destruction found I'll beleive they are there. Until then I don't trust our own govenrments to tell the truth any more than I trust the word of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf.


.... on a side note, just to put two and two together... hehe...

Alhazen Al-Rashid wrote:chemical weapons are largely ineffective and can only hurt civillian areas in large numbers. the U.S. military is largely impervious to CW/BW attack


From another thread:

Alhazen Al-Rashid wrote:The tank being upside down, the hatches were unable to open, due to hydrostatic pressure of the water and silt/mud. Water was rushing in due to hatch seals not being worth a shizit!


If its not water tight its not air tight :lol: Just kidding, you don't have to post some lecture on water pressure at 20ft ;)
User avatar
By Boondock Saint
#8175
The proof - as the saying goes - is in the pudding. When I see weapons of mass destruction found I'll beleive they are there. Until then I don't trust our own govenrments to tell the truth any more than I trust the word of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf.


OH ... sorry ... I wish to clarify something, I dont believe we have found any WOMD either, I dont doubt Saddam had them though. I agree with you, I will believe it when I see it.

But my support for this war didnt come from WOMD, my personal support for the war came from toppling Saddam.

But, I dont much like our attitude towards Syria and I dont much like Isreal pushing their needs through us. At this point it is my beleif the US should turn over Iraq to the UN and wash its hands of the ME all together.
User avatar
By KurtFF8
#8344
First off, i agree that we should be saying to bush "well where are they?" but I think we will find somehting, it just wont be as big as we thought.

and 2nd off it was obvioulsy just an excuse to invade Iraq, but I dont think it was for oil, I think it was for revenge agnist saddam and because the Bush admin. just didnt like him.

As long as settler colonialism is a thing, Octobe[…]

Don't strawman me . I don't believe in genetic su[…]

Wishing to see the existence of a massively nucl[…]

Israel-Palestinian War 2023

Speculation is boring and useless. Speculation is,[…]