[Rodion]

As Israel didn't exist at that time, one really had to wonder how come you were, well, hated.

But I thought you were an anti-Zionist... I'm confused.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Warangel uttered:

As far as helping the Nazis exterminate Jews, the Dutch were some of the greatest collaborators.

Does the finger pointing somehow make you feel superior warangel?
The number of times I've heard this line being used by zionists is astonishing. Country XXX was one of the greatest collaborators with the nazis in the holocaust.

The greatest collaborators were the jews themselves, almost without exception they went meekly to their deaths. No struggle, no resistance, just compliance.

I'll sit back and await the inevitable justification for Israeli aggression you will link back to this.

[Tonic]

Holland generated more Nazi collaborators than any European country during WWII. Their devotion to their cause is evidenced by the fact that the Jewish population of Holland was reduced from 140,000 to 15,000 after the war.

The numbers of Dutch Nazi collaborators during the war, however, exceeded those active in the resistance. Relative to the size of its population, the Netherlands had the most Waffen SS volunteers in Western Europe. Furthermore, out of the 24,000 Jews who were hidden, 8,000 were betrayed by Dutchmen.

The Dutch authorities sent the Jews on their first steps to their extermination on German orders; the Germans required very few of their own people for this. Dutch policemen arrested the Jews.

[noemon]

Which Jerusalem?

I think neomon talks about the one under occupation.

Yap, thanks Vanasalus

[War Angel]

that myth was created about the same time the allied made up the haulocast.

Holocaust denial. Great. If I ever had any doubts about you, Maas, they are gone now.

Does the finger pointing somehow make you feel superior warangel?

I feel superior, period.

The number of times I've heard this line being used by zionists is astonishing.

We're the only ones left around to say it.

The greatest collaborators were the jews themselves, almost without exception they went meekly to their deaths. No struggle, no resistance, just compliance.

How little you must know about the Holocaust. I won't even dignify this with a response. Your ignorance is too over-whelming.. perhaps at a later time, I could muster the strength to reply appropriately.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Tonic wrote:

Holland generated more Nazi collaborators than any European country during WWII. Their devotion to their cause is evidenced by the fact that the Jewish population of Holland was reduced from 140,000 to 15,000 after the war.

So Holland generated more collaborators than say the Ukraine?
How many dutch guards manned the concentration camps Tonic?
The figures you quote do nothing to justify your claim that 'Holland generated more Nazi collaborators than any European country during WWII'.
Percentage wise the Dutch lost a smaller proportion of their jewish citizens than Greece, Slovakia, Bohemia and Moravia,Germany and Austria themselves, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland.

The numbers of Dutch Nazi collaborators during the war, however, exceeded those active in the resistance. Relative to the size of its population, the Netherlands had the most Waffen SS volunteers in Western Europe. Furthermore, out of the 24,000 Jews who were hidden, 8,000 were betrayed by Dutchmen.

OK so now its 'Western Europe'?

The Dutch authorities sent the Jews on their first steps to their extermination on German orders; the Germans required very few of their own people for this. Dutch policemen arrested the Jews.

None of this behaviour was unique to Holland.
In fact this practice happened in most German occupied countries in WW2.
You could easily substitute the word 'Dutch' and replace it with a host of others such as Hungarian, Italian, French etc for that sentence.

Warangel blubbered:

How little you must know about the Holocaust. I won't even dignify this with a response. Your ignorance is too over-whelming.. perhaps at a later time, I could muster the strength to reply appropriately.

I think I know a little bit about the Holocaust.
It's not nice having the finger pointed back at yourself when you're so self righteous is it?
Perhaps you should get off your high horse and stop blaming posters'countries for what happened and look to your own people's distinct lack of opposition to what was going on.

[noemon]

Regarding, the Heroic Greece(the only worthy opponent in Hitler's own words*):

In total, at least 81% (ca. 60,000) of Greece's total pre-war Jewish population perished, with the percentage ranging from Thessaloniki's 91% to 'just' 50% in Athens, or even less in other provincial areas such as Volos (36%). In the Bulgarian zone death rates surpassed 90%.[13] In the notable case of the Ionian island of Zakynthos, all 275 Jews survived, being hidden in the island's interior.[14]

Further:

The Foundation for the Advancement of Sephardic Studies and Culture writes "One cannot forget the repeated initiatives of the head of the Metropolitan See of Thessaloniki, Gennadios, against the deportations, and most of all, the official letter of protest signed in Athens on March 23, 1943, by Archbishop Damaskinos, along with 27 prominent leaders of cultural, academic and professional organizations. The document, written in a very sharp language, refers to unbreakable bonds between Christian Orthodox and Jews, identifying them jointly as Greeks, without differentiation. It is noteworthy that such a document is unique in the whole of occupied Europe, in character, content and purpose".[2]

In Corfu after the fall of Italian fascism in 1943, the Nazis took control of the island. Corfu's mayor at the time, Kollas, was a known collaborator and various anti-semitic laws were passed by the Nazis that now formed the occupation government of the island.[15] In early June 1944, while the Allies bombed Corfu as a diversion from the landing in Normandy, the Gestapo rounded up the Jews of the city, temporarily incarcerated them at the old fort (Palaio Frourio) and on the 10th of June sent them to Auschwitz where very few survived.[15][16] However, approximately two hundred out of a total population of 1900 managed to flee.[17] Many among the local populace at the time provided shelter and refuge to those 200 Jews that managed to escape the Nazis.[18] As well, a prominent section of the old town is to this day called Evraiki (Εβραική) meaning Jewish suburb in recognition of the Jewish contribution and continued presence in Corfu city. An active Synagogue (Συναγωγή) is an integral part of Evraiki today with about 65 members.[17]

The 275 Jews of the island of Zakynthos, however, survived the Holocaust. When the island's mayor, Carrer, was presented with the German order to hand over a list of Jews, Bishop Chrysostomos returned to the Germans with a list of two names; his and the mayor's. The island's population hid every member of the Jewish community. When the island was almost levelled by the great earthquake of 1953, the first relief came from the state of Israel, with a message that read "The Jews of Zakynthos have never forgotten their Mayor or their beloved Bishop and what they did for us."[3]

In addition Mark Mazower on Salonica, City of Ghosts, gives us the testimony of the German Officer is Thessaloniki:

"The Greeks simply cannot understand the favor we[Germans] are doing them, by cleansing the Jews."

*

Historical justice forces me to admit that among all the enemies who stand against us, the Greek soldier above all, fought with the most courage. He surrendered himself only when the continuation of resistance was not possible any longer, and when he had no reason not to... However, he fought so bravely, that even his enemies can not deny their respect for him... Thus, the Greek prisoners of war were released immediately, having in mind the heroic stance of these soldiers.[3]

Adolph Hitler, Reichstag, 4 May 1941

I forbid the

Press to underestimate the Greeks, to defame them... The Führer admires the bravery of Greeks. [4]

Joseph Goebbels in his diary, 9 April 1941

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Resistance

One of the most touching episodes of the early resistance took place just after the Wehrmacht reached the Acropolis on April 27. The Germans ordered the flag guard, Evzone Konstandinos Koukidis, to retire the Greek flag. The Greek soldier obeyed, but when he was done, he wrapped himself in the flag and threw himself off of the plateau where he met deat.

Nobody can say a word against a Greek: it stamps a man at once as an educated gentleman.

[danholo]

Meh. They were being lenient on them. The Bible advocates stoning Sabbath-breakers to death; spitting on them is merely a symbolic expression of their disapproval. By Biblical standards, they're almost pansy-ass liberals.

Well, not really. First there would be a court procedure. According to the Talmud, not many people were sentenced to death by Jewish courts. It says that a court that sentenced even one man to death within seventy years was "blood thirsty".

These people are just freaks who can't accept that they don't live in 18th Europe anymore.

[Maas]

These people are just freaks who can't accept that they don't live in 18th Europe anymore.

it never stopped them or their more moderate versions to critize other believes.

[danholo]

it never stopped them or their more moderate versions to critize other believes.

Uh-huh... When and where? And what does it have to do with anything if that was so?

[Potemkin]

it never stopped them or their more moderate versions to critize other believes.

The Haredim don't really give a flying fuck what non-Jews believe or don't believe. Why would they care?

[danholo]

The Haredim don't really give a flying fuck what non-Jews believe or don't believe. Why would they care?

Exactly. Some sects don't even consider non-haredim as Jews, either. When it comes to Jews, it always seems like a guessing game for many.

[Maas]

oh I get to hear all kinds of bad things that seem to be written down the Quran. Those kinds of comments usually are not made by Atheist.

[Maas]

The statue resembles only the myth building efforts

Holocaust denial. Great. If I ever had any doubts about you, Maas, they are gone now.

it's either Holocaust denial, or I ment that it's as real as the Holocaust.

And the statue stands for all the people who got executed for striking against the treatment of Jews in WWII. That was the penalty for striking. We had 2 national strikes. No other country did that even once. So much for us being the biggest collaborators, and so much for you pretending to be a know-it-all.

The Dutch authorities sent the Jews on their first steps to their extermination on German orders

The Dutch authorities were in Londen and said no such thing.
You mean the puppit governments installed by Germany, which they did in all the countries they oppressed. Nothing out of the ordinary how our puppit government was.

The greatest collaborators were the jews themselves, almost without exception they went meekly to their deaths. No struggle, no resistance, just compliance.

I can't recall Jews putting up a fight at all.
But them Jew-lovers here seem to think all of us should have died for them while they were sipping a martini or something.

[Tonic]

Arthur

The figures are from the web. Maybe Potemkin could help us more.

Potemkin, I also asked before who created the over-rated myth, both in Holland and France, over their resistence groups? Was it done by the Allies rather than the locals? To give them a nice narrative to live with and to gain their loyality in the future Cold War? Or rather it was local initiative immediately after German defeat when they sought to put Resistence’s wind in their (Nazi-collaborated) sails?

We know that the Russians gave Communist East Germany that narrative Vs. West Germany. As if East Germany was the inheritor of the German Communists who were persucated by Hitler while West Germany share the other side of the narrative and shuold compensated the Nazi victims. Could it be that when the war was over there was a battle on narratives and so the myth of French and Dutch resistence was forged?

Do you know if East Germany forced to compensated the Nazi victims as well? Did West Germany compensated the Soviets for their suffering during the war?

[Potemkin]

Potemkin, I also asked before who created the over-rated myth, both in Holland and France, over their resistence groups? Was it done by the Allies rather than the locals? To give them a nice narrative to live with and to gain their loyality in the future Cold War? Or rather it was local initiative immediately after German defeat when they sought to put Resistence’s wind in their (Nazi-collaborated) sails?

In France at least, the myth of the Free French Resistance was manufactured by de Gaulle after the War in order to recover at least some French national pride and dignity. Petain was demonised as a traitor and the Resistance was recast as united under de Gaulle's leadership in exile, which in reality was far from the case - most of the Maquis were Communists. This was done partly for Cold War reasons - the role of the Communists in the French Resistance had to be written out of history - and partly for local domestic reasons. In my view, this 'myth' of the Resistance was absolutely necessary for the French nation at that time, which by 1945 was almost completely demoralised. It was for this reason that de Gaulle insisted that he and some representatives of his 'Free French' should march into Paris when the Allies liberated it, in order to symbolise the 'fact' that Paris had been liberated by the French themselves. The Allies, as usual, humoured him in this matter.

We know that the Russians gave Communist East Germany that narrative Vs. West Germany. As if East Germany was the inheritor of the German Communists who were persucated by Hitler while West Germany share the other side of the narrative and shuold compensated the Nazi victims. Could it be that when the war was over there was a battle on narratives and so the myth of French and Dutch resistence was forged?

I would agree with that - the Communist states wrote the non-Communist Resistance out of history, while the capitalist states wrote the Communist Resistance out of history. I seem to recall that one of the iconic female Dutch Resistance fighters was actually a committed member of the Communist Party, something omitted from the history books until very recently. But this is not unusual - how many people know that Helen Keller was an ardent Socialist? The 'insirational' narratives of her life we were spoon-fed as children ommitted all mention of her politics; instead, her story was turned into a tale of individualist self-improvement and self-help, almost worthy of Horatio Alger. The Cold War distorted many aspects of Western culture and self-understanding, more than we realise. I think we are still living with the consequences of that.

Do you know if East Germany forced to compensated the Nazi victims as well? Did West Germany compensated the Soviets for their suffering during the war?

Not to my knowledge. But of course, the Soviet government had carried away large quantities of German materiel and means of production and taken them back to the Soviet Union to help reconstruct the Soviet economy, so you could say that there had been involuntary, de facto compensation. But how do you compensate a nation for the deaths of 20 million of its citizens and the almost total devastation of its economy?

[War Angel]

I think I know a little bit about the Holocaust.

You know what you have been fed, no doubt by the same sources which have led to your hateful views of Jews and Israel. Still, I'd hate to see ignorance go un-answered, so here are a few articles. Enjoy.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?la ... d=10005213
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/mag ... tance.html
http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1998 ... stance.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_res ... _Holocaust

More-over, despite the OVERWHELMING (there were more Jewish partisans than non-Jewish) Jewish armed and un-armed resistance to the Nazis and their collaborators, the TRUE Jewish resistance was staying alive. I am living proof of that resistance, and with me, 6 million Israeli Jews, and 7 million more around the world. The Nazis' failure at exterminating the Jewish people was the direct result of Jewish resourcefulness and survivability. The State of Israel is our victory against the Nazi entity, and our hateful enemies through-out the globe. Our continued existence and prosperity is the bane of your existence. We love it.

It's not nice having the finger pointed back at yourself when you're so self righteous is it?

I'd tell what I do with fingers pointed at me, but I suspect you already know.

stop blaming posters'countries for what happened and look to your own people's distinct lack of opposition to what was going on.

Awesome. I'll be sure to tell my grandfather it's his faultt his family got wiped out. I'll tell him it's not the Nazis fault Jews were murdered, it's something about Jews WANTING to die. Does that even make sense to you? Do you even think before you type, or is that a strange concept to you?

[Tonic]

Thanx Potemkin. For an authoritative answer it's always nice to pick up your brain.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Warangel whined:

You know what you have been fed, no doubt by the same sources which have led to your hateful views of Jews and Israel. Still, I'd hate to see ignorance go un-answered, so here are a few articles. Enjoy.

Thanks very much.
But can you demonstrate where I have shown 'hatred of jews and Israel'?
This is a very important point, please do not reply unless you intend to answer this.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?la ... d=10005213
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/mag ... tance.html
http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1998 ... stance.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_res ... _Holocaust

Earlier on Warangel quoted me as saying:

The greatest collaborators were the jews themselves, almost without exception they went meekly to their deaths. No struggle, no resistance, just compliance.

So you've posted a list of the exceptions. A ghetto uprising in a couple of places, the odd revolt in an otherwise smoothly functioning death camp.
Thanks for proving my case.

Warangel then whinged:

More-over, despite the OVERWHELMING (there were more Jewish partisans than non-Jewish) Jewish armed and un-armed resistance to the Nazis and their collaborators, the TRUE Jewish resistance was staying alive. I am living proof of that resistance, and with me, 6 million Israeli Jews, and 7 million more around the world. The Nazis' failure at exterminating the Jewish people was the direct result of Jewish resourcefulness and survivability. The State of Israel is our victory against the Nazi entity, and our hateful enemies through-out the globe. Our continued existence and prosperity is the bane of your existence. We love it.

Earlier on I wrote:

I'll sit back and await the inevitable justification for Israeli aggression you will link back to this.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Warangel:

Awesome. I'll be sure to tell my grandfather it's his faultt his family got wiped out. I'll tell him it's not the Nazis fault Jews were murdered, it's something about Jews WANTING to die. Does that even make sense to you? Do you even think before you type, or is that a strange concept to you?

It's nobody's fault but the nazis.