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By spodi
#14480534
Hi history buffs, last night I was talking with a friend who's a fellow history buff and we got on the topic of the axis. I mentioned to him how from my own knowledge, I don't believe anywhere else in history a nation (America) conquered an enemy (Germany and Japan) and after conquering gave it full autonomy and freedom to prosper. I understand conquering and colonizing but Japan and Germany are autonomous (with Japan more dependent on America for geographic-historical reasons). Do any of you know of any parallels in history to what I've just mentioned? Thanks.
#14480557
End of Napoleon the first time springs to mind. (if restricting to wars that only involved conquest ) But didn't the Allies (it wasn't just the US) dictate the shape of Government ? And what abouyt East Germany wasnt that colonised or something ? There were territorial adjusts after ww2. Franco-Prussian war had adjustments was Alsace-lorriane colonization?

Define "full autonomy" and "colonization"
#14480576
America's war against the Axis powers was an ideological struggle between democracy and fascism and the US explicitly pledged to avoid seeking territorial aggrandisement in the Atlantic Charter that defined the Allied goals for the post-war world. Roosevelt's personal views on European colonialism influenced American foreign policy during the war and liquidating the British Empire in the name of national self-determination was one of his main agendas, which helped the US emerge as an unrivalled superpower in the post-war era. The American occupation of Japan was considered a huge success but the Japanese constitution was drafted by a group of American lawyers and the Japanese were only allowed to translate the American version of the new constitution. In the course of denazification of Japan, millions of copies of wartime books were confiscated and destroyed and Japan had lost valuable historical documents on its past, which resulted in a collective memory loss, and the US imposed an alternative version of Japanese history by censoring the media and school textbooks.

So thirdterm, what your saying is in at least Japan's post 45 world it was colonizing without calling it colonizing? Do you still think Tokyo is our puppet today?


Washington has been covertly manipulating Japanese politics since the 1950s and we know now that prominent Japanese politicians including former prime ministers were on the CIA's payroll, actively promoting pro-American policies in Japan. It's been suspected that the CIA was behind mysterious covert operations in the post-war era to discredit the opposition against the American-funded Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) and any opposition parties had tremendous difficulties in gaining power, allowing the LDP's one-party rule in the Cold War era.

In a major covert operation of the cold war, the Central Intelligence Agency spent millions of dollars to support the conservative party that dominated Japan's politics for a generation. The C.I.A. gave money to the Liberal Democratic Party and its members in the 1950's and the 1960's, to gather intelligence on Japan, make the country a bulwark against Communism in Asia and undermine the Japanese left, said retired intelligence officials and former diplomats. Since then, the C.I.A. has dropped its covert financial aid and focused instead on gathering inside information on Japan's party politics and positions in trade and treaty talks, retired intelligence officers said. The Liberal Democrats' 38 years of one-party governance ended last year when they fell from power after a series of corruption cases -- many involving secret cash contributions. Still the largest party in Japan's parliament, they formed an awkward coalition in June with their old cold war enemies, the Socialists -- the party that the C.I.A.'s aid aimed in part to undermine. Though the C.I.A.'s financial role in Japanese politics has long been suspected by historians and journalists, the Liberal Democrats have always denied it existed, and the breadth and depth of the support has never been detailed publicly. Disclosure of the covert aid could open old wounds and harm the Liberal Democrats' credibility as an independent voice for Japanese interests. The subject of spying between allies has always been sensitive. Bits and pieces of the story are revealed in United States Government records slowly being declassified. A State Department document in the National Archives describes a secret meeting in a Tokyo hotel at which Eisaku Sato, a former Prime Minister of Japan, sought under-the-table contributions from the United States for the 1958 parliamentary election. A newly declassified C.I.A. history also discusses covert support sent that year.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world ... -60-s.html


a) Japan was not a Nazi country, so what denazification you are talking about?


MacArthur's SCAP employed similar tactics that had been tried in Nazi Germany to Japan to democratise these former fascist countries and the former Nazis and their Japanese equivalents, who were ultra-nationalists, were banned from taking up posts as public servants. The US tried to ideologically cleanse the two nations so that they would not revert to their old ways in the 1930s and the Germans and Japanese were somewhat brainwashed into becoming democratic and peace-loving peoples through a series of measures of thought control such as media censorship and book burning.

In this turbulent time of socio-economic upheaval, the military engaged in assassinations and other acts of intimidation against government officials, often in the name of the Emperor. Young military officers were committed to purifying Japan by imposing greater discipline and rooting out the corrupt excesses of capitalism and party politics. Some scholars have described this as fascism, but there were significant differences from developments in Germany and Italy where Hitler and Mussolini rose to power. The Taisho era (1912–25) was a heady period for Japanese internationalism and democracy. There is general agreement that Japan became disenchanted with the post-First World War international system because it seemed weighted to the advantage of the Western-directed status quo and relegated Japan to the second tier of nations. The roots of Japan’s alienation from the international system are long and complex, but clearly Western racism and double standards played a key part. Japan’s moderates had little to show for their efforts at working within the international system, prompting criticism of those efforts and highlighting the insults and sacrifices Japan was seen to be enduring at the hands of the Western powers. The Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931 and its withdrawal from the League of Nations in 1933 marked the end of Japan’s support for the international system. The militarist hardliners succeeded in taking over Japan’s foreign policy, steering it on a collision course with the United States as they escalated expansion into China,especially after 1937, and later targeted Southeast Asia’s natural resources. Reischauer (1977) has suggested that Taisho democracy was going well until it was hijacked by the militarists in the 1930s, arguing that Japan wason a trajectory of modernization until this process was derailed by a relatively small group of ultra-nationalists. Those sympathetic to his view argue that the Occupation was an effort to revive democracy and return Japan to the modernization trajectory. Others argue that Taisho democracy was an illusion doomed to fail because of the structural flaws of the Meiji Constitution that favoured the emergence of authoritarianism. Proponents of this view dismiss the ‘hijacking’ theory and point out that the shift towards ultra-nationalism and imperial expansionism enjoyed broad media and popular support (Young, 1998). Blaming a small group of fanatics, they argue, tends to exonerate the Japanese people from responsibility for Japan’s expansionist rampage in Asia and overlooks sustained public enthusiasm for such policies. These differing interpretations of what went wrong are connected to the ongoing debate over continuity and transformation between contemporary and wartime Japan. Did SCAP remake wartime Japan or, in making common cause with the existing conservative elite, did it accommodate a certain degree of continuity unimaginable in occupied Germany?
http://catalogue.pearsoned.co.uk/assets ... SE_C02.pdf
Last edited by ThirdTerm on 26 Oct 2014 06:18, edited 3 times in total.
By spodi
#14480591
So thirdterm, what your saying is in at least Japan's post 45 world it was colonizing without calling it colonizing? Do you still think Tokyo is our puppet today?
User avatar
By fuser
#14480655
You can't call post war Germany or Japan to be colonies of US, its quite a stretch.

Third Term wrote:In the course of denazification of Japan, millions of copies of wartime books were confiscated and destroyed and Japan had lost valuable historical documents on its past, which resulted in a collective memory loss, and the US imposed an alternative version of Japanese history by censoring the media and school textbooks.


I know you never reply (a good technique to post erroneous claims and then don't bother to defend them) but here it goes.

a) Japan was not a Nazi country, so what denazification you are talking about?

b) This claim that Japan had a collective memory loss and an alternate view of history was imposed on them is simply laughable neither its possible nor it happened.


America's war against the Axis powers was an ideological struggle between democracy and fascism


No, it was not an ideological struggle but a political one or else the so called free world championing democracy would had intervened in Spain instead cockblocking any help that republicans could get while closing their eyes when fascists were effectively helping nationalists there.
User avatar
By killim
#14491733
Get your facts straight. Germany was split into four parts. Only one was American and many parts became (just like after WW1 part of other nations). Germany became independent again after the 2+4 treaty in *drumrolls* 1991...
#14491778
b) This claim that Japan had a collective memory loss and an alternate view of history was imposed on them is simply laughable neither its possible nor it happened.


There is no sense of historical continuity between Imperial Japan and modern Japan and the country's top journalists do not know too much about wartime history, which was why Japan's leading left-wing newspaper was completely fooled by Seiji Yoshida's fictitious story, who claimed in his memoir that a team of police officers including him kidnapped a few hundred comfort women from a tiny Korean island. The newspaper apologised for its grave mistake after an internal investigation and retracted all stories related to Yoshida, which claimed that comfort women were abducted against their will, but this false narrative is even cited in the UN report on this issue. The Japanese government may need to publish a white paper on the comfort women system in English by translating from available Japanese sources to counter propaganda campaigns by Korean nationalist groups, which won over human rights and feminist groups in the West to their side.

The U.S. Occupation censored Taijiro Tamura’s 1947 story “The Life of an Alluring Woman” (Shunpu den) for describing Korean prostitutes in a war zone. The Civil Information and Education Section with censorship power decided that identifying the nationality of the prostitutes constituted “criticism” of that nation. U.S. censors ordered Korean references expunged but not the description of prostitutes in a war zone — not initially anyway. They knew soldiers needed sex. The Japanese military at one time had done a study showing that soldiers in a war zone had a particularly high output of adrenalin. In this regard, the Relaxation and Amusement Association and the network of “special comfort stations” under it that the Japanese government worked to set up for the occupying soldiers in the very month the nation surrendered, August 1945, which John Dower describes in “Embracing Defeat” (1999), may elicit a sneer: Look how someone with a bad conscience behaves! But in reality the move to set up RAA “comfort stations” was justifiable. Holly Sanders notes in “Prostitution in Postwar Japan” (2005), within 10 days after Occupations soldiers started landing in Yokohama on Aug. 28, more than 1,300 rapes were reported in Kanagawa alone. The RAA brothels were shut down in half a year because of “a rampant spread of VD.” During that six-month period 70,000 women are estimated to have worked in them, Yukihiro Tsukada, of Kwansei Gakuin University, has written. After they were abolished, most of those “sex workers” became “panpan” (a corruption of “pompom girls” perhaps), as prostitutes catering to the Occupiers were called. By the 1950s their number reached 150,000.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/201 ... HfsPDGUdMU

Japan's biggest newspaper apologized in print Friday for using the term "sex slaves" in its English-language edition to describe Asian women forced into Japanese military-run brothels during World War II. The conservative Yomiuri said in articles in English and Japanese that it was inappropriate to have used the phrase and others implying the women were coerced to provide sex. The newspaper identified 97 articles, including 85 of its own, with "sex slaves" or similar expressions between 1992 and 2013. It said non-Japanese people have difficulty understanding the term "comfort women," used in Japan to describe the women, so its English-language edition added explanations improperly suggesting that "coercion by the Japanese government or the army was an objective fact."
http://mashable.com/2014/11/28/japan-sex-slaves/
User avatar
By KlassWar
#14491787
killim wrote:Get your facts straight. Germany was split into four parts. Only one was American and many parts became (just like after WW1 part of other nations). Germany became independent again after the 2+4 treaty in *drumrolls* 1991...


That's a blatant falsehood, pure anti-Soviet propaganda. East Germany was an independent country since 1949. The Eastern Bloc was no more occupied by foreign powers than Western Europe with its NATO garrisons and collective security arrangements. Warsaw Pact interventions in defense of socialism weren't soviet invasions as reactionary revisionists like to claim, they were collective efforts by the armed forces of the socialist bloc as a whole to help communists in fraternal countries crush counterrevolutionary vermin.
By Beal
#14492046
KlassWar wrote:That's a blatant falsehood, pure anti-Soviet propaganda. East Germany was an independent country since 1949. The Eastern Bloc was no more occupied by foreign powers than Western Europe with its NATO garrisons and collective security arrangements. Warsaw Pact interventions in defense of socialism weren't soviet invasions as reactionary revisionists like to claim, they were collective efforts by the armed forces of the socialist bloc as a whole to help communists in fraternal countries crush counterrevolutionary vermin.


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