[Fouad Shoubaki]

Nico

then claming that the white man is the devil. well we laugh.

Very hypocrite of them , but from a historical point of view , they're right , I dont think you could ever deny that .

In a another forum you said that Jesus was black yet in Ethiopia Jesus is shown as being white:

I couldnt find that on that link (thanks for it btw) , but if Jesus was a Hebrew Israelite and Hebrew Israelites were at least mostly Semitic then Jesus did not have a pale color of skin . They can picture it how they like , I have seen dark-skinned images in Cyprus and Greek images of Christ , how about that ? Maybe you might think ..... but there is a White facial structure , then you should know that they didnt came together at the same time , Kemetians had *white* facial structure as well .

[Proctor]

I wrote this about 20 posts ago, so forgive me for not being up to date.


If colonialism is the right to live in the land of your birth, then indeed I am a colonialist.

What you all seem to be saying is that Zionism is the the desire to live in the state of Israel, and that there should be a state of Israel. How is this wrong? I think there should be a state of New Zealand, and I don't get associated with all kinds of terrible evils against Maori.

I agree that the refugees should be allowed back into Israel, and I agree that the settlements are a pretty contemptible policy, but so? It seems that the general sentiment is that there should be one nation there where everyone regardless of race can live happily ever after, and practice whatever religion they want. Well... isn't that kind of like what it is now? Sure, some of Israel's policies are pretty dodgy, but is that justification for "Death to the Zionists!"?

This doesn't work because the Palestinians have a legitimate cause for a state of their own. And why shouldn't they?


And my train of thought is now completely lost.

[Switters]

Wow, some of this discussion makes me want to scream. Denounce Israeli military actions for all I care, but I fucking hate holocaust revisionism.

Fouad Shoubaki: The judenrat were pigs, in hindsight. But it's easy to say that now. Back then many members of the judenrat thought that if they could just hold out a bit longer by sending a few more people to the camps, the russians would come and more jews would have survived. Meanwhile, if the judenrat did not comply with the germans decisions, they knew that they and their family would be killed and they would be quickly replaced with someone who would comply with the germans. Some of their decisions would be tough to make even today, many of their decisions were altruistic. The kapos were definately pigs, many were not even jewish, but were classified as such by the germans because they had jewish blood. The kapos got extra food and privaledges, and let's face it, many people are greedy and will do anything to survive, including selling out your own people when you are hungry. Most of them were killed in the end, by the way.

But zionists as a whole had nothing to do with the holocaust, and it is blatant anti-semitic revisionism to say that they did. Your examples are exceptions. Just as many zionists went to their deaths as non-zionists. Certain zionists collaborated with the nazis to get visas so jews could go to palestine, but those jews survived, so whatever... again, hindsight is twenty-twenty.

If i were in that situation I would like to think i would fight to my death, but who knows what one would do until that situation arises.

Tovarish, you do not know what a real jew is as i have mentioned, either do i for that matter. I would never say that you were not a "real communist," especially since I'm not one. I would like to insist that you NEVER USE THE PHRASE "real jew" AGAIN until you do one of the following: talk to god or become a rabbi. Or at the very least become a jew yourself.

There were and are more than one type of zionist. Many zionists want a secular state in palestine/israel. Many Zionists want Israel to become a theocracy, many zionists would have been happy if the jewish homeland was in alaska or uganda instead of Israel. Many zionists are communists believe it or not. One of the groups that signed the declaration of independence in Israel was the Communist party. There's still a couple of strong (although currently weak) socialist parties in Israel that are for returning to the 67 borders. There's no monolithic group of zionists so describing the entire movement as racist or evil is wrong in my opinion.

Yea , before we know it we are actually blaming the Blacks for setting of trade-systems , forming terrorist gangs to create their own states , taking over USA economically , media-wise , politically and even ther movies and muziekbiz ,

Well, i was willing to listen to your shit before Fouad Shoubaki. But you just discredited yourself with that post. You just showed textbook economical anti-semitism. I'd just like to stress this point: JEWS ARE NOT TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD. THEY NEVER HAVE BEEN. The protocols of the elders of zion was a forgery. What the fuck are you talking about setting of trade systems? So what, some jews have been successful in the United States, so have some greeks, some italiens, some japanese, etc. No one ethnic group has completecontrol over any institution in the united states with the exception of WASPs in the presidency. You just crossed the line from anti-zionism, which i get, to anti-semitism, which is the world's oldest, most enduring, and quite frankly stupidest hatred.

I find it funny that you say peace at the end of your posts but then show hands raising guns in your signature.

More comments:

I do hope people ARE aware that gang-leaders have been Israel presidents and PM's .

THe current president of the palestinian authority was/is a known terrorist, so what? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

You seem to be an arab nationalist, which to me seems just as legitimate as a Jewish nationalist. You, more than any zionist i know, seems to put more emphasis on skin colour and ethnic origin.

I find your explanation of the holocaust disgusting. It was anything BUT natural selection. The smart jews, the religious jews, the communist jews they were all burned equally in the end. Some got away because of money and luck. That is all. It's disgusting that you just spit on the collected graves of 6 million by saying that they died because they were weak. They died because they were jewish.


Well quite frankly, i'm not going to go on and on arguing with someone who answers their own posts again and again and again.

And in case anyone thinks i am a militant zionist, i most certainly am not. I am however, a jew, a very secular one mind you, who believes that Israel is a legitimate state, one that does bad things. As i've said again and again, the Israelis should withdraw, unilaterally if necessecary to the green line, abandon the settlements and allow an international peacekeeping group to help get the palestinian government back on their feet. There should be a two-state solution with Jerusalem as a capital of both states or as an international city. The two-state solution should be in place until trust is returned between the two peoples and they begin to understand each other's culture, which they clearly do not now. Only then could there be a united palestine/israel.

There will be no peace until each side realizes that the other side has legitimate views.

I would like to hear the solution of a hateful mad-man. Fouad, any ideas?

[Gothmog]

Wow, some of this discussion makes me want to scream. Denounce Israeli military actions for all I care, but I fucking hate holocaust revisionism.

-I want to say I agree with Switters on 120% of what he said. He was simply brilliant. This topic is insane.

[jaakko]

If colonialism is the right to live in the land of your birth, then indeed I am a colonialist.

What you all seem to be saying is that Zionism is the the desire to live in the state of Israel, and that there should be a state of Israel. How is this wrong? I think there should be a state of New Zealand, and I don't get associated with all kinds of terrible evils against Maori.

I already answered these. The problem is not that Jews live in Palestine. Zionists think there should be a Jewish state in Palestine, which was not established as a nation state but as a state based on religion and race. People of certain religion and race were wreighted there, just because they were of certain religion or race. That is how the population base was created for 'Israel'. No secular anti-racist can accept such state. I can, atleast as it is over 50 years ago, accept that tons of Jews were wreighted there, despite its complete artificiality. That's no longer a problem. But I refuse to accept that a religious/racial group, because of Zionist ideology developed in the 19th century, should have its own religious/racial state!

I agree that the refugees should be allowed back into Israel, and I agree that the settlements are a pretty contemptible policy, but so?

Demanding the right of return for the refugees would in effect be very near demanding death to Zionism. 'Israel' is a Jewish state. Allowing refugees back would mean not just the growth of inner resistance against the Zionist settler state, but the population inside the Zionist fortress would then mostly consist of non-Jews. Then retaining its charachter as a 'Jewish' state and an outpost of imperialism would demand more fascist measures.

This doesn't work because the Palestinians have a legitimate cause for a state of their own. And why shouldn't they?

People living in Palestine are Palestinians, regardless of their religion or where they've come from. No religious or racial group has the right to have a separate state.

[nico]

I believe that Jews should have gotten their own state, but should it have been in the Levant? Remember that Jews are really a state-less people. Most Jews aren't even semities. Many are slavic, khazaria if there were ever a place for European jewry to settle it was the Black sea coast i.e. Georgia, Rostov-on-Don region. Some Zionists were willing to live in Uganda! The problem with Zionism is the injustice that was brought upon it on the Pals. They were forced out of their homes around 700,000 if I am not mistaken. Settlements like Ariel and the like are not helping the situation. Since Jews aren't a race to be Jewish you have to follow the faith, but the Torah clearly states that Jews are not allowed back to Israel until the coming of the Messiah. I personally is on the fence on this holocaust- zionist connection. It maybe that I am too brain- washed, or that no one would actually do that. It is a fact of life now that Jews live in Israel (sinful) but they do. The only way to peace is too have a united secular state. But that would be the death of the Zionist state of Israel.

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Hi Proctor

Some interesting points on some other subjects :

Colonialism and the Right to live in the country of birth

Is there a right to live anywhere ? If so based on what ? I think it is reasonable to grant a person actively involved in his society the right to live in his society if he behaves according to reasonably desirable aims , for instance not rape nor murder etc . But not only directly is activity a cause for consequences , they are also causes for causes for causes and then consequences etc . For instance , if you sit at home all day peacefull yet pay for an army that slaughers natives in your name , then I dont think you have reached a certain balance of you and your envioronment we can call peacefull . And that is what I think should be the goal of society , peacefull existance . And in order to do this specific demands have to be lived up to .

As for being a colonist , that deals with a political functioning of you in a system . Do you think that your system (empire) treats others within (and without for other observations) it aside of yourself decent ?

Canada for instant , as much as I know of it ..... I wouldnt consider colonist because everybody is colonizing it . It depends on differences between colonizing classes , weither it is relevant to call it a colonist in relation for the right to be there .

Obviously just being born somewhere doesnt make it yours ..... If Ive been born in a Nazi-German-family in Hungary , does that give me necesarry right to live there ?

What you all seem to be saying is that Zionism is the the desire to live in the state of Israel, and that there should be a state of Israel. How is this wrong? I think there should be a state of New Zealand, and I don't get associated with all kinds of terrible evils against Maori.

55 years ago there was no state of Israel because hardly any Jews lived in Palestine , or whatever one would wish to call that piece of land with over a million Arabs . If a group of European peoples of Jewish faith decides that they are holy somehow and can chase out the native peoples , this is pure active and violent colonialism known like in the America's 500 years ago , do you condemn that or not ?

This state in New Zealand should be there as long as the natives who are there now and recently (still living generations) are treated like human beings and have as much right to live there in peace as anyone else . If your leftover Mauri (Im sorry Im not that familliar with NZ history....are there any left , or was it always peacefull ? ) are sitting in camps at the sides of your lands and occupied with tanks and killed and oppressed on daily base , then they should declare Jihad on NZ and start a guerilla war of Shuhada .

Israel only exists 55 years ...............

It seems that the general sentiment is that there should be one nation there where everyone regardless of race can live happily ever after, and practice whatever religion they want. Well... isn't that kind of like what it is now?

Are you actually aware of what happens in Israel and why and when and how it started ? I dont mind if you are not , but then please ...... read instead of write .

Sure, some of Israel's policies are pretty dodgy, but is that justification for "Death to the Zionists!"?

Israel is an apartheids-state that is actively colonial , they just withdraw from Lebanon , they took Golan and they hold occupied whatever's left of Palestine that hasnt oficially become the state of Israel . All this under a peoples and leadership of European colonists , Europeans not Arabs . The native Jews of Palestine are Mizrahi Arabs from either the Inquisition-banning or the Roman empire .

Now whats done is done I agree , but Im not forgetting it . It doesnt mean we just happily go on like shit happened . Israel cannot be a Jewish state alone . It either has to be secular for ALL people , or they should provide a Palestinian alternative they can be proud of . That means a state and a trial condemaning all rich zionists to PAY for what they have caused . That doesnt mean punishment only , that means $ . As they built Israel , so should they be forced to rebuild Palestine . Its that they should be

[Fouad Shoubaki]

OMG seems we are dealing with a whole bunch of reality-repression these days


Hiya Switters


This is one big pot of denyal , lets see if we can get rid of the weed first .


holocaust revisionism

What a strategic point of you , toobad its all bullpoo . You see Switters , the thing is though , that I am fully aware of the holocaust . I dont exactly know the numbers (like anybody else) but I do know that millions of simple Yiddish peoples who did never had anything to do with the German situation , and who were fooled and betrayed by peoples who they thought to be their own ...... I am only revision the system in which the holocaust worked , it was NEVER just the Nazi's , that was the brilliance of their system . Slavic countries participated heavily in the killing of peoples just as Slavic as them in the name of Himmlers fantasised Atlantis-Aryan race .

So dont call it holocaust revisionism , although your term might be technically correct , its very obvious others are only aware of the emotional impact the word holds in combination with this linkage of denying the holocaust . I am very sure that you are aware of this .

But it's easy to say that now. Back then many members of the judenrat thought that if they could just hold out a bit longer by sending a few more people to the camps, the russians would come and more jews would have survived. Meanwhile, if the judenrat did not comply with the germans decisions, they knew that they and their family would be killed and they would be quickly replaced with someone who would comply with the germans. Some of their decisions would be tough to make even today, many of their decisions were altruistic.

And why exactly do you bring in a moral consideration ? Altruistic ? Get real doesnt exist sir , goodmorning to you . Yes they had little choice , but the way that they were pushed into the system (natural selection) doesnt mean they were not in it . My question how many Judenrat was Zionist , how many Ordnungsdienst was Zionist ? Who has the lists ? What we need is names , the entire logical system has been layed out .

The kapos were definately pigs, many were not even jewish, but were classified as such by the germans because they had jewish blood. The kapos got extra food and privaledges, and let's face it, many people are greedy and will do anything to survive, including selling out your own people when you are hungry. Most of them were killed in the end, by the way.

Not those who survive obviously . How many Kapos joined military the Stern and Irgun militias ? Thats what I care about . Its not a blame-game here , I am trying to understand the Kapos function . Also I think if its about during the holocaust itself , the ordnungsdienst to be the most relevant on a practical scale , because were the ones directly arranging the deportantions . As I questioned , it is relevant to know weither Kapos came from the outside or were sent for , if the latter then there is Zionist relevance , otherwise as long as its during the holocaust , there isnt . If its the food-system you propose , then they're not relevant during the holocaust for my question .

anti-semitic

Lets get things straight here for a second shall we . If you have absolutely no clue on what anti-semitism is , then please dont call what I have to say anti-semitic . I am pretty sure you have no clue on how it functioned within the intellectual German society , why it got "created" as an anti-religious concept and how exactly it functioned within Zionism . Read some shit before you write about it , I would suggest . There are plenty links dealing with this here , so if you care to disagree please point it out .

Also I am sure you're fully aware that the semantical concept of anti-semitism is not only errorous as one group within semitism doesnt own semitism itself . Besides that , the peoples you bring anti-semitism in for are not quite semites themselves even . Thats not anti-semitical , thats fact . Are you calling facts anti-semitical ? Thats just ignorant .

Your examples are exceptions. Just as many zionists went to their deaths as non-zionists.

Exceptions ? They fit perfectly within a system , or what are Polish razzia's exceptions as well ? Come on now , are you seriously denying a logical relation here between people who are most militant , most influential and with a serious goal that falls in the same path at Hitlers (ofcourse not eventual , He'd go for Holocausting Palestine.....) , while sharing the same Jew/Non-Jew racial distinctian that DIDNT EXIST like Hitler . All this opposed to the religious Jews . Now you're telling me when such people cooporate with Nazi's and some of them are cought , they're just useless examples ?

Certain zionists collaborated with the nazis to get visas so jews could go to palestine, but those jews survived, so whatever... again, hindsight is twenty-twenty.

Are you aware of this transfer agreement ? That the Jewish-led boycott of German goods would cease in return for the transfer of German Jews to the Holy Land ? And you think its all good ? Your peoples are being holocausted for Gods sake and all they care about is Palestine ?

Here's what the founder of Israel has to say about some *sacrifices* being made for Palestine :

David Ben Gurion :
If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People."

"Jewish suffering is also a political factor, and whoever says that Hitler diminished our strength, is not telling the truth."

If you are actually denying a Zionist-Nazi relation on a political level , I wonder weither you also deny a Zionist-Fascist relation on a political level ? If so then can you please explain me what Ze'ev Jabotinsky was doing in his Fascist uniform ? No he didnt deal with Mussolini ? No he didnt lead the Irgun that later established Israel in 1948 ?



Just an example correct ? Thats why Memechim Begin was actually PM (or Pres cant remeber) of Israel , while he was head of Igun .

And then how about Avraham Stern ? He advocated Nazi-Alliance and founded the LEHI that along with Irgun fought for Israel in 48 , and performed terrorism on the Brits in Palestine . He declared brittain the enemy and not Nazi Germany .

Myth: Yitzhak Shamir and his ilk always looked out for all Jewish people.
As World War II broke out, the primary right-wing organization fighting the British mandate was a group called Irgun Zvai Leumi, inspired by the ideas of Zev Jabotinsky (a moderate in that he only sought territory on "both sides of the River Jordan").

However, when Jabotinsky agreed to suspend military operations against Britain and even hinted at cooperating with them against the Nazis, Avraham Stern broke with Jabotinsky and formed the Stern Gang, "calling for a state that extended from the Nile to the Euphrates and proposing an alliance with Hitler to bring this about," according to Christopher Hitchens.

Stern's dependable deputy and eventual successor was none other than Yitzhak Yezernitsky, later known as Yitzhak Shamir, Prime Minister of Israel.

In the fall of 1940, Shamir and company secured an agreement with Benito Mussolini whereby the Italian fascist would recognize a Zionist state in return for Sternist co-ordination with the Italian Army when the country was to be invaded. Shortly thereafter, in January 1941, Stern put out feelers to the Nazis and dispatched an agent to meet with two of Hitler's emissaries in Beirut.

"Stern's proposal," Hitchens details, "which was rashly put in writing, began by establishing his ideological common ground with Nazism , expressing sympathy with the Hitlerite goal of a Jew-free Europe and speaking of 'the goodwill of the German Reich government . . . toward Zionist activity inside Germany and towards the Zionist emigration plans.' "

Stern proposed the "establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis," promising that the Stern Gang would "actively take part in the war on Germany's side."

As a result of this pact, members of the group would react favorably in public to any news of Nazi victories. Even into 1941, after Stern was killed in a shoot-out and more became known of murderous Nazi policies, Shamir took control of the Stern Gang and never renounced his support for Hitler's goal of a Jewless Europe.


In what fase of denyal are you in mister ?

If i were in that situation I would like to think i would fight to my death, but who knows what one would do until that situation arises.

Well they didnt fight to their deaths , not against the Nazi's anyway . They fought till their deaths for Palestine yes , not for Polish Jewry .

Tovarish, you do not know what a real jew is as i have mentioned, either do i for that matter. I would never say that you were not a "real communist," especially since I'm not one. I would like to insist that you NEVER USE THE PHRASE "real jew" AGAIN until you do one of the following: talk to god or become a rabbi. Or at the very least become a jew yourself.

But you seem however great at calling peoples anti-semitic without being a semite , or knowing what the hell one is , or knowing where the word comes from and why . I dont know weither a term *real* is appropriate , because Judaism isnt just religon (there isnt even a Hebrew word for religion) , so when they arent religious or hold all religious values , its not right to call them not real Jews , they're very real Jews . Its just that the Hassidics dont consider them Kosher . I suggest instead of talking to God or being a rabbi , you could also just talk to one . Or just read about it .

Anyways , you're a lot worse off when it comes to *phrases* that you shouldnt use .....

There were and are more than one type of zionist. Many zionists want a secular state in palestine/israel.

Secularity in the sense of state-religion isnt whats relevant , not right now nor back then since it never was very religious nor is it so right now . Its a peoples from Europe that call themselves zionist and colonize the land what is relevant , their wishes is a Zionist Israel , like I said religiously speaking ......Zionism by definition is secular . They have fabricated a Hebrew identity , and claim nationality under Zionism , thats what the deal is .

many zionists would have been happy if the jewish homeland was in alaska or uganda instead of Israel.

Who's stopping them from settling in Alaska or Uganda ? They are horrifically rich as a system , they can buy Argentina and go there . But they didnt and they dont , what they would also do if ....is not very relevant in any sense .

Many zionists are communists believe it or not

Believe it or not smart man , original communism was JEWISH . At least Karl Marx , Engels' wife Lenin and Trotsky were ....... but then came Tovarish Stalin . Lets save that discussion for another thread , shall we ?

One of the groups that signed the declaration of independence in Israel was the Communist party.

How about the USSR even ? Who cares ? Whats your point ?

There's no monolithic group of zionists so describing the entire movement as racist or evil is wrong in my opinion.

Look its very simple there is absolutely no Zionist that would agree to share their state with the peoples of Palestine , thats the essential of Zionism its not like Socialism its JEWISH , but National in front of that . Its bad enough for them they have to deal with Arabs in their state , its a bitch they have to deal with those Black Falasmura from Ethiopia (which some dont even consider authentic Hebrew , while they're the most Hebrewic Jews you'll find nowadays) , they dont really like the Mizrahim .....not even the Polish or Russian have had it always easy (especially in the holocaust) , no...... Zionism true face is nothing other than Nazism , an Ubermensch from Europe . Surely things changed a bit , peopels mix ....peoples learn to live with eachother , but the deep horrible essence is highly visible in every way you are looking at it . But what the hell are we talking about here , Im sure you dont even know the difference between their Hebrewic fabrication over the last 55 years in order to cover up their hated Yiddish roots . Zionism developed from and as a mental disorders , it came from hate and it creates hate . Thats just the way it is .

But you just discredited yourself with that post. You just showed textbook economical anti-semitism. I'd just like to stress this point: JEWS ARE NOT TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD. THEY NEVER HAVE BEEN. The protocols of the elders of zion was a forgery. What the fuck are you talking about setting of trade systems? So what, some jews have been successful in the United States, so have some greeks, some italiens, some japanese, etc. No one ethnic group has completecontrol over any institution in the united states with the exception of WASPs in the presidency. You just crossed the line from anti-zionism, which i get, to anti-semitism, which is the world's oldest, most enduring, and quite frankly stupidest hatred.

Ok , even if we are adapting your silly anti-semitical concept of jew-hate , how do I hate on Jews because they are Jews ? How ? Show me .
As for the protocols , no that was 1904 and IMO dealt with early Communism more than anything else , nobody is bringin in Jews taking over the world conspiracy theories in here , not me at least . But it only shows your incapability of understanding that a system works itself , it doesnt need planning nor plotting , it simply needs essential peoples in essential places , thats IT .

Now if you are denying the USA deal right here , then please what do you need , names ? Id say lets save that for another thread , one that deals with actuality's instead of history . Im happy my frined Arik Scheinerman wont disagree with me :

Every time we do something you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it

Again , this has little to do with protocols or conspiracy's , but with peoples in prosperous positions with colliding interests . Are you denying such a logical system ? I cant wait for the thread , it ought to be fun

Also , anti-semitism aint that old ...... Wilhelm Marr came up with it not even 150 years ago ..... Oh wait , you mean Jew-hatred . Oh well ..... I love Jews , but what would you know about it ?

I find it funny that you say peace at the end of your posts but then show hands raising guns in your signature.

And I think its funny that you think a person wishes peace to everybody . Im not for peace with those who are not of peace , very simple . For them I want bullits not doves . Im not a peacenik thank you ...

THe current president of the palestinian authority was/is a known terrorist, so what? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

ehm , so is the current PM of Israel . Im not arguing them as being terrorists , Im showing relevance between the violent ways of the LEHI and IRGUN and todays Israeli society , theorizing a same link between the LEHI and IRGUN and the practicizers of actual deportations and killings in nazi Uniforms . My point is that LEHI and IRGUN were one of history's most incredible militanties , the fact that such peoples get to be in Israels knesset on highest positions shows the lack of morality when it comes to your Ideal .

Yitzhak Shamir who was PM in 86 actually was active within the Stern within the Nazi and Fascist (Jabotninsky) collaborations , I mean come on now ?

You seem to be an arab nationalist

Not really ......

You, more than any zionist i know, seems to put more emphasis on skin colour and ethnic origin.

Im probably also more multi-ethnical than any zionist you will ever see .
Anyways I have no problems with pointing out who is what , because i am not affraid that my judgements that are made about peoples I point out have anything to do with what their skin color or race is .

I find your explanation of the holocaust disgusting.

I find your understanding on Jewish questions either lacking or totally ignorant , from a psychological , sociological , anthropological religious and historical and even political point of view , not even to mention philosophical/logical .

It was anything BUT natural selection. The smart jews, the religious jews, the communist jews they were all burned equally in the end. Some got away because of money and luck. That is all. It's disgusting that you just spit on the collected graves of 6 million by saying that they died because they were weak. They died because they were jewish.

Somehow you seem to think that i dont care about those millions of Yiddish peoples who already had sucky lives to die for some fascist who wanted a Palstinian state and some Germans who felt they were some super-race . The fact that it WAS natural selection doesnt mean it was horrific , it means it ecolced in a natural proces . If I take your country and start killin g everybody because they are of your country , then the strongest ones will survive . That doesnt mean the weaker ones died for a good cause, itmeans they died because they didnt make it . They werent criminals , thugs and murderers who walked over corpses to get their goals , they were decent and civilized and minded their own business . You obviously have absolutely no clue on how those processes go , never wondered why former-Yugoslavia has Mafia lords today ? Why the Russians and Ukranians have the same ? When there's war its the strong ones that win , not the peaceniks . And the Zionists were peacenik , while the religious ones were massacred for not fighting back , or collaborating for their own saviour .

Well quite frankly, i'm not going to go on and on arguing with someone who answers their own posts again and again and again.

Excuse me ?

I am however, a jew,

That is great for you , but please then dont deny history that is quite relevant for you . I am curious however , as a Jew where are you from ?

As i've said again and again, the Israelis should withdraw, unilaterally if necessecary to the green line, abandon the settlements and allow an international peacekeeping group to help get the palestinian government back on their feet. There should be a two-state solution with Jerusalem as a capital of both states or as an international city. The two-state solution should be in place until trust is returned between the two peoples and they begin to understand each other's culture, which they clearly do not now. Only then could there be a united palestine/israel.

The thing is however , that bthis whole damn thread has nothing to do with israel pulling back and their Palestinian question , but with their functioning before they were a state . Its great you want all of this , but let me tell you .... not gonna happen and not zionist-policy . I can explain you all about it , but lets do that somewhere else . As for unification , LMAO are you really that naive ? I dont even blaim the zionists anymore for their actual opposition , the next generation wants to eat them alive . They just got rid of Saddam , I dont think they like a new state with Hamas .

There will be no peace until each side realizes that the other side has legitimate views.

Israel as a zionist state has no moral legitimacy whatsoever .

I would like to hear the solution of a hateful mad-man. Fouad, any ideas?

Dont call me a hatefull mad-man ...... you're making an ass out of yourself behaving like this .

There isnt a solution , only an Ideal . And that ideal will not be lived up and is to be discussed in other threads . If you wish to root for Israel , you better gain an attitude like this dude :


Pacifism with understanding etc isnt gonna happen . I felt that the last chance was Mizna , the last chance .

Hey Afenelon : its nice you agree with somebody more than you can , but I do hope useless one-line comments like this are totally meaningless Im sure you are aware of that . I have responded you alot and to get this parotting in return teaches me a lesson for next time .

[Gothmog]

I already answered these. The problem is not that Jews live in Palestine. Zionists think there should be a Jewish state in Palestine, which was not established as a nation state but as a state based on religion and race. People of certain religion and race were wreighted there, just because they were of certain religion or race. That is how the population base was created for 'Israel'. No secular anti-racist can accept such state. I can, atleast as it is over 50 years ago, accept that tons of Jews were wreighted there, despite its complete artificiality. That's no longer a problem. But I refuse to accept that a religious/racial group, because of Zionist ideology developed in the 19th century, should have its own religious/racial state!

-You´re right, however, you must consider that Zionism made sense for many Jews in the aftermath of WWII, since the horrors of holocaust convinced many of them that assimilation was not a good idea. The tragedy of Zionism, however, was the attempt to create a democratic and socialist system in a ethnic based state, as you correctly points. Those two objectives are incompatible and eventually Israel decided that Apartheid is better. Was that choice implicit in the Zionist ideology or was the result of events that couldn´t be controlled by the Israeli socialist leadership? This is not an easy question. I feel that, for reasons related to security, Israel understood that its survival was only possible as an imperialist outpost (Israel and North Korea are probably the most militarized societies of the world, and the Israeli economy simply cannot afford for its big Army withouth external aid). This may have saved the country in the short range but, as we see, is threatening his future.

demanding the right of return for the refugees would in effect be very near demanding death to Zionism. 'Israel' is a Jewish state. Allowing refugees back would mean not just the growth of inner resistance against the Zionist settler state, but the population inside the Zionist fortress would then mostly consist of non-Jews. Then retaining its charachter as a 'Jewish' state and an outpost of imperialism would demand more fascist measures.

-Actually, this will eventually happen even withouth the return of refugees, unless they give up occupation of Gaza and West Bank. Is ironic to see that the survival of Israel as a Jewish state depends on the end of occupation of those lands. But is it feasible? I mean that such a state will raise legitimate strategic and economic concerns for Israel, not to mention their noisy right wing minority (or majority???)

People living in Palestine are Palestinians, regardless of their religion or where they've come from. No religious or racial group has the right to have a separate state.

-Agree, however, switters has a good point when he defends a two state solution as an intermediate step. Uri Avnery, from Gush Shalom, who is far from being a Zionist militant, argues that "the one state solution right now" would only perpetuate the social unequalities between Jews and Arabs. And of course, Yugoslavia is always there to remeber us that multiethnic secular states are no magical solution. Hidden hatred and prejudices always surface in times of economic hardship.....

[Switters]

Fouad, I'm from Canada. Most of my family fled there from Lithuania before the war because of pogroms. The others that stayed behind were put into a synagogue with the rest of the Jewish community, and they were burned alive by the Nazis with the help of some Lithuanian fascists. But I guess that's just natural selection right? Idiot...

Anyway, I don't know if english is your first language, but you sound totally fucking crazy in your posts. The connection you are trying to draw is tenuous at best. It's not denial. I am totally aware that the jews were completely powerless. The superficial power the germans gave the kapos and the judenrat was totally useless, and this only happened in a few polish cities. Most of Europe's jews were just sent directly to the camps and not to ghettoes. Everytime you go "you obviously don't know...", like you are the total authority on everything, makes you sound like a total asshole.

Yes, Begin was PM, 30 years after the Irgun was incorporated into the IDF. Yes, there have been a few right-wing premiers in Israel, but for most of Israel's history the leading zionist organizations were left-leaning, like the labour party and the meretz party. Fouad triest to show that all zionists are right-winged fascists with connections to Nazis. But that most certainly is not true. You'll have to forgive the left in Israel for not making peace with the Arabs right away. They were surrounded by enemies or anything who attacked them numerous times. Hopefully the left can regain power in Israel once Sharon is finished.

I hope no one is taking this crap seriously. If anyone is let me know and I'll bother to take the time to explain why this guy is totally misinformed.

Israel as a zionist state has no moral legitimacy whatsoever.

Yes, many people also believe that a palestinian state would have no legitimacy. People who believe these things are crazy and blinded by ideology.

Alas, my post has become petty name calling, but I wasn't totally off calling what Fouad said about Jews controlling the world's financial systems and the United States anti-semitic was I?

By the way Fouad, I know what a semite is. But the term anti-semitism is synonamous with jew-hatred, so I use it anyway.

Well I'm leaving for the summer, could someone please take my position as the resident Holocaust-revisionism fighter? Have a good summer, hopefully the forum will not be filled with this kind of crap when i get back.

Shalom! haha.

[Gothmog]

Hey Afenelon : its nice you agree with somebody more than you can , but I do hope useless one-line comments like this are totally meaningless Im sure you are aware of that . I have responded you alot and to get this parotting in return teaches me a lesson for next time .

-Actually I´m paying tribute to switters because I was somewhat rude towards him in a former discussion. On your points, I think you´re mixing some quite valid ones with some degree of fantasy. It´s right to consider Israel an Apartheid state, or a colonial one. To consider Zionism and Nazism were allied is not. Neither you were able to prove that was a significant amount of Zionists among kapos. I also don´t think it is fair to present arguments from Orthodox Jews if you aren´t one of them. which means you really don´t believe that is unfair to end exile before god determines this. You also mentions Stern and Irgun and equals them to Zionism. However, they were a minority in the Zionist movement. The majority of Zionists by 1948 were non marxist socialists. I also think you should clarify better what you really defend. You place the symbol of Al Qasa in you messages, which is your right, but denies being a Palestinian nationalist. What are you for? I see you´re for the destruction of Zionist entity. What is this? Extermination of Jews? A one state in Palestina where Jews and Arabs are treated as equals? Maybe I´m being unfair towards you, but I really can´t understand what you want.

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Hey Switters

they were burned alive by the Nazis with the help of some Lithuanian fascists. But I guess that's just natural selection right? Idiot...


Ofcourse that is natural selection , they were not strong enough to survive . Why do you feel it is problematic morally somehow for a person simply to be weak and not to make it ? I dont know about you , but it is the ones who are the toughest , smartest and moralless that is gonna make it . I do not know about your family , but I am sure they are for instance not like the gang-kids from Honduras or El Salvador , or like the kids from the Projects in NYC . They would obviously be alot stronger than your average Shlomo from Lodz , and they would survive . And that is how the Zionist have functioned within the holocaust , they survived by natural selection . The Germans implemented a self-destructive system , and who was on top survived . Again I repeat , same thing happened in ex-Yugoslavia , criminals are running things there after the war , because the are the ones surviving the war best .

I don't know if english is your first language, but you sound totally fucking crazy in your posts

No its not , and I dont see how it being my first or second language would make me sound crazy in my posts .....

The connection you are trying to draw is tenuous at best. It's not denial. I am totally aware that the jews were completely powerless. The superficial power the germans gave the kapos and the judenrat was totally useless, and this only happened in a few polish cities.

And he collected them ? Who rounded peoples up ? Who political authority ? Most holocausted Jews came from Poland , that was the thing . Also , for local Zionism to function you dont need some international system , so its really irellevant . Even if it would be the Warsaw ghetto only , it would be more than enough .

Everytime you go "you obviously don't know...", like you are the total authority on everything, makes you sound like a total asshole.


And if you indeed dont know the Im an asshole that is right on what he says , and you're the idiot for being ignorant on it yet having some lame opinion .


Yes, Begin was PM, 30 years after the Irgun was incorporated into the IDF. Yes, there have been a few right-wing premiers in Israel, but for most of Israel's history the leading zionist organizations were left-leaning, like the labour party and the meretz party


Right , Left ..... what was Gurion ? Enough already , LEHI and IRGUN established Israel , dont deny their influence please . And yes they were villains and thugs who have massacred Palestinian peoples , but thats another subject . Todays Likud roots in LEHI , from a man (Avraham Stern) THAT ASKED FOR NAZI ALLIANCE , and claimed people to be THANKFULL for the Reich's effords . Should I repeat Yitzhak Shamir ?

Fouad triest to show that all zionists are right-winged fascists with connections to Nazis. But that most certainly is not true

No I am not , I am trying to show that the Revisionists Zionists as LEHI and IRGUN DID , and I am trying to show that this was most directly put in practice with the Ordnungsdienst . You on the other hand are totally denying nazi-collaboration and whining about the left this left that , who cares ? Whats the damn difference ? Like democrat and republikan ? What a joke .

You'll have to forgive the left in Israel for not making peace with the Arabs right away . They were surrounded by enemies or anything who attacked them numerous times.

They were not left/right in war , they were just zionists . Were there left and right Spanish colonists as well ? Or left and right fascists ? Stalin was left one day then left the other , its a total joke this division they all wanted to settle in Palestine and chased 700.000 poeples out have they not ?

Hopefully the left can regain power in Israel once Sharon is finished.


Yes well dream on , you better go with the neo-nazi's , they might put up a fight because in 10 years its gonna get crazy with our youths . You can forget about peace by then .....

I hope no one is taking this crap seriously. If anyone is let me know and I'll bother to take the time to explain why this guy is totally misinformed.


What damn crap man , you come in and bring in 0 but make some silly naive and uneducated points and form all sorts of opinions and mix up everything with everything else , and now you tell others that you would explain them if they'll let u know ? How about refuting points that have been given to you , instead of this apologetics on how left zionism was and bla bla , there is info here for you to write entire essays on if your disagreement would be based on factual knowledge , but its not .....its just your sentiment
Oh well .....

Yes, many people also believe that a palestinian state would have no legitimacy. People who believe these things are crazy and blinded by ideology.

Can you for once stop this ad hominem crap and refute the statement ? What motive can you bring in for Israels moral legitimacy ? I dont care for Palestinian illegitimacy as someone might be convinced of , we're not playing the moderation game here its stupid .

Israel as a zionist state has no moral legitimacy whatsoever .

but I wasn't totally off calling what Fouad said about Jews controlling the world's financial systems and the United States anti-semitic was I?


Controlling implies a certain knowledged intentioned steering , and I never implied such . I dont believe in some Jewish council ala protocols , its silly most secular Jews dont even know eachother , they're just like everybody else who comes from an Italian or Irish home . Its just that they have specific interests in Israel , and they are in important positions where those interests of them actually matter , and others follow because their interests collide . Shall we point out names ? Is it a crime to OBSERVE a FACT ? Perhaps its a crime that the fact is there to be observed . Yes you were totally off , I dont call jews something because they are Jews , them being Jew in any way hasnt got to do with anything . They can all be zen-buddhists , just like Rummie and Cheney and Bushy could all just be Turks or Mongols . Its irellevant , its their position and interests that count .

Holocaust-revisionism fighter?

You know ........Id like to see the income/fortune of ALL european Jews as individuals or clans just before the holocaust , and then I would like to see the names of the 6 M whith their income/fortune before the holocaust . This is not holocaust-revisionism , its simply re-organizing the characters , we were always told its just bad mister Hitler , well ...... thats not how the world turns peoples , wake up . Its not like some damn movie ...... things are actually a bit more complex than that .

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Afenelon

It´s right to consider Israel an Apartheid state, or a colonial one.

Thats great , the thing is however (something obviously very hard to understand) that this is about historical factual research and not some opinion about Israel . I can for instance start an anthropologic thread somehwere on the ehnic origins of Ashkenazim Jewry , Im sure peoples would bring up Israel and anti-semitism and this and that and bla bla and its all really not relevant , its not what its about .

However , it does help to make this acknowledgement for Israel as it is today , because so the link can be drawn to yesterday : With the LEHI and Irgun , and then we get to the bottom of things . An understanding of zionism before the holocaust and its creation as a political ideal is nice as well , but all of them are nice ...... thats all . Its not relevant for the matter in question directly .

To consider Zionism and Nazism were allied is not

See this is another opinion . Why not ? There is serious evidence that there HAS BEEN an alliance in some sense political , that an alliance was desired , the only question is the actual poractice within the ghetto's that I am questioning here . When a man like Avraham Stern who played such a major role in things actually speaks of "goodwill of the Reich" according to European Jewry , I mean wtf ?

Neither you were able to prove that was a significant amount of Zionists among kapos

Kapos (camp-guards) arent THAT relevant (as I explained depends on where they came from) , Ordnungsdienst and Judenrat and other authorities that arranged Jewish matters were much more important . As the political parties that were allowed to ACT FREELY were Zionists shipping peoples to Palestine , and as the German-Jewish self-destruction system was created , who other then them would fit better ? What other Jew than a Zionist would become Ordnungsdients . Was the case of the man I mentioned a systematical one ? I think it was . What we need is lists of Ordnungsdienst and political activity ? Do we have those ? Do we have acces ? For as long as we dont have those , why are we assuming those peoples were NOT zionists , while only zionists in those positions from EVERY point of view you look at it brings in any logic . And then allof a sudden they were all militant ? Where did they get arms ? And why are such important questions regarding the state if Israel all being swept out of the way with the most stupid arguments ?

Why am I not finding ANYTHING relevant on Jabotinsky on http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biogra ... insky.html ?

During 1939­1940, Jabotinsky was active in Britain and the United States in the hope of establishing a Jewish army to fight side by side with the Allies against Nazi Germany.


WTF ?

look what they have to say on Irgun : http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/irgun.html

Look , the Jews in Israel rejected Stern L
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/stern.html

Im sorry but .......

I also don´t think it is fair to present arguments from Orthodox Jews if you aren´t one of them. which means you really don´t believe that is unfair to end exile before god determines this.

What ? I should be part of the source before I can use its content as motivation ? Thats the stupidest thing Ive ever heard . So if Im not Commie I cant use Lenin arguments for Imperialism ?

If the Bushmen came with good points on this I would use the Bushmens arguments , lets get a little serious here please .....

You also mentions Stern and Irgun and equals them to Zionism. However, they were a minority in the Zionist movement. The majority of Zionists by 1948 were non marxist socialists

But they were about the most relevant part , who led the 700.000 Europeans to Israel in 47 ? They were the ones who had most impact on the militancy of the movement , nobody else . And when u say 48 , is that before or after independance ? because if its after .....it doesnt really make sense since they simply got swallowed by the system .

I also think you should clarify better what you really defend. You place the symbol of Al Qasa in you messages, which is your right, but denies being a Palestinian nationalist.

Why the hell do I have to be something ? If you ask what my position is in the Palestinian question , then indeed I take the position of Palestinian nationalism , and in the Arabic question Arabic nationalism .

Thing is , all this shouldnt become involved in this issue of Nazi-Zionist alliance and the one fragment I point out specifically .

I see you´re for the destruction of Zionist entity. What is this?
The State of Israel and their Amerikan friends .

Extermination of Jews?
No ..... not all Jews are Zionists , and not all Zionists are Jews .
I like Jews My best friends name is Shlomo . I think he has a funny name . I like Yiddish . I dont like fabricated ancient languages in a *modern coat* hijacked by European colonists who have brought back the shekel .

A one state in Palestina where Jews and Arabs are treated as equals?

That would be my ideal as for todays situation , Im not even for sending those colonists back to their homes in Odessa and Berlin , but that means equality for ALL peoples , all who have fled . But thats not happening . So then I would even go for 2 states , as long as they provide equality . Not happening either ...... You see we leave out justice , and still nothing .

Well then ONLY Justice if thats the way its gotta be which means total war on the Zionist state untill it falls or there is no more people there to hold it up . Its far to late for peace by surrendering .......

lets start the

Now ........... can we please get back to the topic ? Can anyone bring in some good arguments that either prove or disprove the relations within the Nazi-Zionist alliance , how something functioned intentionally , how other things turned out non-intentionally , anybody ?

Oh I found an intersting link especiall for our Lithuanian friend :
http://www.heritagefilms.com/LITHUANIA.html

Lithuania was a fertile ground for the development of Hibbat Zion and Zionism. The Jews of Lithuania had been attached to Erez Israel by powerful ties since the immigration there of the Hasidim and the disciples of the Gaon of Vilna from the end of the 18th century. Natives of Lithuania such as D. Gordon, in the periodical Ha-Maggid, P. Smolenskin, in Ha-Shahar, J. M. Pines, and E. Ben-Yehuda had already discussed Jewish nationalism and settlement in Erez Israel in the 1870s. With the inception of Hibbat Zion, the movement spread to many towns and townlets, one of its centers being Bialystok, the residence of Samuel Mohilewer, one of the leaders of the movement. Natives of Lithuania were among the most prominent propagators of the Hibbat Zion ideology throughout Russia and beyond (S. P. Rabbinowitz, Hermann Schapira, etc.). In 1902 the second convention of Russian Zionists was held in Minsk. This was the only Zionist convention to be held openly and attended by the public in the czarist period. From 1905 to 1912 the center of Russian Zionism was Vilna. The Zionists headed the movement for the revival of the Hebrew language and the establishment of modern Hebrew schools (heder metukkan, "reformed heder"). The first Diaspora institution for the training of Hebrew teachers was opened in 1908 in Grodno ("the Grodno courses"). The development of Hebrew literature in Lithuania and the activities of Hebrew authors and poets such as Z. Shneour, Yaakov Cahan, and I. D. Berkowitz were closely connected with Zionism.

On the basis of the election results for the first parliament (which sat from November 1922 to March 1923) the Jews were entitled to six seats, but because of a deliberately false interpretation of the election law, only three Jewish seats were recognized. The same happened with the Polish representation. The Jewish and Polish deputies, together with the other opposition members, thereupon expressed "no confidence" in the newly established government. The first parliament was accordingly dissolved. In the elections for the second parliament (which sat from May 1923 to May 1926), the Jews and other national minorities formed a nationalities bloc, and seven Jewish deputies were elected: M. Wolf, J. Robinson, S. Rosenbaum, all Zionists; I. Brudny (Ze'irei-Zion, World Union) L. Garfunkel (d. 1976) (Ze'irei-Zion, Hitahadut): E. Finkelstein (Folkspartei) and Rabbi Joseph Kahaneman.

Funny thing how nothing on Zionism is mentioned when the Ordnungsdienst is already in function .

More interesting material : http://www.secularislam.org/visitors/13.htm

The Jüdische Ordnungsdienst, as the Jewish police in the ghettos were called, furnished thousands of men for seizure operations. In the Warsaw ghetto alone the Jewish police numbered approximately 2500; in Lodz they were about 1200 men strong; the Lvov ghetto had an Ordnungsdienst of 500 men; and so on. (Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago, 1961, p. 310)


Israel Shahak underlines that almost all the administrative tasks and policing required by the Nazis was placed in Jewish hands, that Jewish collaborators were ubiquitous, and that it was Jewish collaborators who rendered the Jewish Holocaust feasible and who stood as obstacles in the path of Jewish resistance. Note, particularly, that the children of the Warsaw ghetto were taught to fear the Jewish collaborator more than the Ukrainian collaborator:


As one who himself lived through the Holocaust, first in Warsaw then in Bergen-Belsen, I will give an immediate example of the total ignorance of daily life during the Holocaust. In the Warsaw ghetto, even during the period of the first massive extermination (June to October 1943), one saw almost no German soldiers. Nearly all the work of administration, and later the work of transporting hundreds of thousands of Jews to their deaths, was carried out by Jewish collaborators. Before the outbreak of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (the planning of which only started after the extermination of the majority of Jews in Warsaw), the Jewish underground killed, with perfect justification, every Jewish collaborator they could find. If they had not done so the Uprising could never have started. The majority of the population of the Ghetto hated the collaborators far more than the German Nazis. Every Jewish child was taught, and this saved the lives of some of them "if you enter a square from which there are three exits, one guarded by a German SS man, one by an Ukrainian and one by a Jewish policeman, then you should first try to pass the German, and then maybe the Ukrainian, but never the Jew".

Moldetsky, a leader of the Zionist Workers Party (Poalei Zion), who was appointed head of the council of elders in Bedzin, and who, over the course of years, chose thousands of Jews for forced labor and extermination, succeeded in remaining alive. For the mass deportations, Moldetsky published a decree which was completely fraudulent and deceiving, in which he said: "Jews, dress up in your holiday clothes and march joyfully to the gathering places mentioned above. No one is to remain at home. ..." The Jews, in their innocence, obeyed him. The result was that people with large families - as well as the elderly - a total of 8,000, were sent to Auschwitz. The babies were pushed into sacks by the Nazis. ... After the war, Moldetsky - by merit of Zionist activities - was understandably one of the first to receive an immigration certificate to Palestine. His collaboration in the murder of tens of thousands of Jews did not make him unfit in the eyes of the officials of the Jewish Agency, who were distributing the certificates. He went to Eretz Yisroel where, it has been reported, the revengeful hand of the Jews of Bedzin killed him while he was taking a trip in the mountains. (Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, pp. 122-123)


He [K. Tzetnik] depicts the figure of Eliezer Greenbaum, son of Yitzchak Greenbaum, who, thanks to his tactics of acting as informant and displaying cruelty - to an extent which amazed even the Germans - was elevated to the rank of the bloc commander. (Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, p. 21)

Practically all of the kapo officers were academicians - persons with degrees - who behaved like wild beasts and at times were more cruel than the Nazis. (Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, p. 121)




[/quote]

[Demosthenes]

Well I'm leaving for the summer, could someone please take my position as the resident Holocaust-revisionism fighter?

Hey Switters, glad you caught this one, sorry I couldn't be of as much assistance as I would have liked, I smply don't know that much about internal nazi policies concerning jews in Poland in the 1930s and 40s. So I decided it was better to just move on. I mean can anyone here tell me what the policy was in 1860s Missouri concerning the black slaves from the south and which parts of Missouri honored it? Not unless you're a fanatic for our history, I would guess, unless of course you want to go to a lot of trouble trying to prove something to someone who's not going to listen to you very much anyway and obviously already has their mind made up about "the facts" So that it's less debate and more teaching us poor unfortunate morons a history lesson. Particularly when you disagree with the conclusions.

Fear not their are many who know the truth and will fight to maintain it to the best of their ability.

One thing though- Clinton for an avatar??? I'm so ashamed... Oh well

Fawd- I'm still having a hard time understanding that you are not simply finding a fancy way to blame the jews for the deaths of their own during the holocaust, which you told me earlier you weren't trying to do. I mean let's say all you say is true, Are telling me with a 100% sureity that if someone holds a gun to your head and says: "It's you or your brother" are you saying you know you would tell this person to pull the trigger, and kill you to spare your brother? Even if you would do this personally can you guarnetee every one you call brother would do the same? I don't think you can. My point is if my questions are tue how can you blame some Jews for selling out when you are not sure your brother wouldn't do the same thing? (did I just use a triple negative?)

So I'm listening to the best of my ability but I gotta echo Switters comments about your English, its very hard to understand.

And by the way to Nico:

I'm the type of person who would argue with blacks who claim the white man is all evil for the slavery they perpetuated for a time, and then turn around and argue with people like you who claim because some blacks participated in slavery it somehow makes it ok. This doesn't change the fact that if whites weren't looking for slaves in the first place their wouldn't have been a market for flesh at all. Guess I just like to argue! (as some have probably noticed )

[nico]

and then turn around and argue with people like you who claim because some blacks participated in slavery it somehow makes it ok.

Where? Where did I ever say that? Your logic is in serious need of re-adjustment! My commentary was how sick it was that their own would sell them to us whites.

Here Fouad, the African slave kingdoms. Makes me sick to my stomach knowing the greed of these kingdoms, then claming that the white man is the devil. well we laugh.


Point to me where i said that slavery was ok? You may have trouble understanding Fouad, but I also have a problem understanding your logic. I suggest you read things twice before making awful, and slanderous comments like that.

This doesn't change the fact that if whites weren't looking for slaves in the first place their wouldn't have been a market for flesh at all.

Did I say it did? 16 million or so dead African slaves was the black holocaust. I just hate the fact that some ignorants blame the whites for all of slavery. No, the black kings didn't have to participate. But guess what they did.

Guess I just like to argue!

Next time make it a good argument.

[Demosthenes]

Where? Where did I ever say that? Your logic is in serious need of re-adjustment!

Yes, I know I get that all the time, I'm, used to it by now, however it doesn't change the fact that I think your logic is faulty, IF you are saying what your statement seemed to imply. If your not, hey thats all good and grand.

Next time make it a good argument.

Once again, I could say the same about your argument. I mean you are posting on a thread seemingly blaming Jews for the holocaust and then chiming in with your comments on a similar situation as it pertained to black slavery, it most certainly does seem to imply you are blaming the blacks for slavery just as Fawd seems to be blaming the jews... So why don't you settle down before you get your panties in a bunch and relax a little, I wasn't intending my comment to be hostile.

[nico]

Ohhhh I get it we have a black apologist here. Well no matter what it's the white mans fault. Me no thinks so. #1 your arugment lacks any credibility, because if Foaud is right in that the Zionists knowingly sent their own to the ovens, then my argument with the blacks is the same. You don't think the kings didn't know about the slave trade? Your backwards, get real man. Who profits from their peoples death and destruction? Their own people, that's how sick it is.

I know I get that all the time,

yet you seem proud, never ceases to amaze me, the human mind.

, IF you are saying what your statement seemed to imply.

My comment did not imply anything but the obvious. That Blacks profited from the slave trade, and that their white hate is seriously mis-directed.

I could say the same about your argument.

Your argument is opinion mine is fact, there is the difference.

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Demosthenes


First of all :

I gotta echo Switters comments about your English, its very hard to understand.


Lets be serious here man , skip this damn anglo-centric view of communication for a minute .

I'm still having a hard time understanding that you are not simply finding a fancy way to blame the jews for the deaths of their own during the holocaust, which you told me earlier you weren't trying to do

Yoyr problem is a somewhat racist understanding of the concept of Jews . There is no "Jews" , there are lots of different peoples of Jewish faith with different cultural/racial , social-economical and political background .

The first peoples who are to blame for the Holocaust are the Nazi's , let that be clear . What I am researching is how Zionism played a role in this especially on the practcical side (the Ordnungsdienst etc) . This deals with their ideals , their militancy , their power and $ , their motivation and their overal involvement . Thats not "Jews" being responsible for the holocaust , thats Zionists being responsible for collaborating (the question is to what level) with those peoples who are responsible for the holocaust , thats questioning ZIONIST responsibility , not Jewish responsibility . And by knowing that , that doenst mean they shove aside #1 Nazism , it just means they played their role . I am facinated by Zionism , and I have studied to quite some extention . A nazi-collaboration as I propose (even to detail in the camps) would perfectly fit their history before and their future after the holocaust , and how they used the holocaust . Did you know that Israel didnt handover possesions back to the Jews the Nazi stole things from ?

I mean let's say all you say is true, Are telling me with a 100% sureity that if someone holds a gun to your head and says: "It's you or your brother" are you saying you know you would tell this person to pull the trigger, and kill you to spare your brother? Even if you would do this personally can you guarnetee every one you call brother would do the same? I don't think you can. My point is if my questions are tue how can you blame some Jews for selling out when you are not sure your brother wouldn't do the same thing?

That would be the case when there is no political relevance , something I might suspect with the guards in the destruction-camps (if they would be deported amongst the others) , thats not what Im talking about . Im talking about agreeing the situations in change of political power and fulfillment of political ideas , thats selling out .

This doesn't change the fact that if whites weren't looking for slaves in the first place their wouldn't have been a market for flesh at all.

That would make it ok to shoot you today because you will die eventually anyways by one reason or the other .


What logics is this ?

just hate the fact that some ignorants blame the whites for all of slavery.

Not all no , but come on now Nico ..... even if it only was 75% And its not , its much much much more .

[nico]

What logics is this ?

You tell me Fouad, you tell me

Not all no , but come on now Nico ..... even if it only was 75% And its not , its much much much more .

Okay there were three parties involved in the slave trade, Christians from Europe, Black Kings, and Arab Traders. To put 75% on the whites is not true. 10's of million went to Arab traders as well. I would say 50% white, 25% black, 25% Arab.

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Nico
because if Foaud is right in that the Zionists knowingly sent their own to the ovens, then my argument with the blacks is the same.

The first actual relations Im researching , of the second know little . But the thing is , its human system , thats how peoples work . Its not that amazing , does Condoleza represent her Black oppressed sisters ? I dont think so , as for the holocaust directly ..... isnt it logical that the most powerfull and most influential and most tich peoples get protected/escape , while the simple man suffers ? Thats just how things work , and thats why I think that based on logics merely its already credible that Black kings would shipp odd their peoples so they can stay Kings .

That Blacks profited from the slave trade, and that their white hate is seriously mis-directed.


My understanding is , that it is mis-directed in sofar that its not complete , it doesnt end there . Like I said , there WAS responsibility , its like me saying oh forget about the Nazi's its only about Zionists , thats the same thing the other way around .

Thing is peoples who can and will profi from their own peoples destruction , look the Arabs use the Palestinian case for some land-disupute with Israel , they dont give a shit about the peoples of Palestine , otherwise they would all have nice (in sofar possible) houses in Syria and the Feddayeen Saddam militias would be comitting attacks instead of 16 year old girls .

Thats just how peoples are , they're selfish idiots , and a specific system can provide serious destruction when they fit into places .

Fawd


again ?