[noemon]

First of all the conversation went exactly where you took it. You started ranting about Yugoslavia.

You said:

"Peace? Pff, Impossible It's the Balkans"

Like any racist would say:

"Peace in the hood? Pfff, It's the Blacks"

Yeah that was a mistake.

You would not like it if I went around saying:

"Pff, its the Americans" every time I would think it may be suitable to.

In fact I remember when Godstud was doing that and you had a very different reaction than mine.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

Balkan is not a race dude. It's not like you're black or had come from a race that has experienced any sort of oppression. Most people in the Balkans are white dudes like me. They're not black. . But you sure do seem to take things personally though. We can just let it go mate. We are not going to always agree and that's just a fact of life.

[noemon]

@noemon

Balkan is not a race dude. It's not like you're black or had come from a race that has experienced any sort of oppression. Most people in the Balkans are white dudes like me. They're not black. . But you sure do seem to take things personally though.

This is the same excuse used by the racists as well when they target Muslims or other groups. They're not a race, so it's all good.

based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin

Your argument is wrong. Racism does not apply to the distinct races only(Black, White, Yellow, Red, Brown), but to any group, ethnic, religious, cultural and so on and forth.

Second,

You would not like it if I went around saying:

"Pff, its the Americans" every time I would think it may be suitable to.

In fact, I remember when Godstud was doing that and you had a very different reaction than mine, a lot more personal.

I spent some good days trying to put the anti-Black racists in line in here so you can come through the back door against my own.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

Muslim is a religion. Balkan is a region, just like North America. Come on man. It's not like I targeted your nationality specifically as a Greek. As a matter of fact, I remember saying some nice things about the Greeks.

[Odiseizam]

The Owen–Stoltenberg plan was again rejected by the Bosniaks resuming hostilities in 1994.

this was just continuation of earlier slovenian and croatian refusals to stay in Yugoslavia when the federation as whole was welcomed to join eU, but someone else didnt had that in mind, reasons suggested in the 1st indent in my first post ... btw we are all biased somehow not just Politics_Observer, but he is probably also brainwashed as ground-dog back then, if that is true what he is saying, after all its easily chechkable, just answer what was price of cigars back then, you didnt smoke right

Already on 14 February 1991, Slovene Prime Minister Peterle met with President of the European Parliament Enrique Baron and member of the European Commission Abel Juan Matutes and made them acquainted with Slovene attempts to achieve independence and with the Slovenian wish to become a full member of the EC.75 On 4 April 1991 the EC “troika” foreign ministers of Luxembourg (Poos), Netherlands (van den Broek), and Italy (de Michelis) visited Belgrade, where they met Marković and Lončar and expressed the anxiety of the EC about the events in Yugoslavia; on this occasion they did not want to meet with representatives of Croatia and Slovenia.76

At their 9 April 1991 meeting, presidents and prime ministers of EC member states again demanded that Yugoslav territorial integrity be preserved. This was the position of the EC for the next few months. Prime Minister of Luxembourg Jacques Santer even declared that if Yugoslavia preserved territorial integrity, it could hope for Associate Membership in the EC. EC Commission President Jacques Delors and Santer then even visited Belgrade to explain this standpoint to representatives of the federal government as well as all six republics.77Before departing for Belgrade they both emphasized that the EC did not want to interfere in the internal affairs of Yugoslavia and that it did not accept the role of intermediate between the opposing sides. Marković tried to calm down Santer and Delors by a statement that the situation in Yugoslavia is complicated but not dramatic. Santer stated also that Yugoslavia would not get the status of Associate Member of EC until it solved its internal problems.78During the visit of Santer and Delors to Belgrade, member states of the EC again declared their wish to keep a united Yugoslavia. Of course that unified support is not surprising because at that time eight foreign ministers of EC member states belonged to Socialists or Social-Democrats, i.e., the parties which traditionally supported the unity of Yugoslavia.

In addition to promises about Associated membership, EC tried to keep Yugoslav territorial integrity also by offering credits. EC President Jacques Delors and Luxembourg Prime Minister Jacques Santer visited Belgrade on 29–30 May 1991 in order to make a commitment to the territorial integrity and international borders of Yugoslavia. The week before, and the very day after Croatians voted for independence, the EC had made the Yugoslav-EC association agreement contingent on the country remaining united. Delors also 22promised to request $4.5 billion in aid from the EC in support of the Yugoslav commitment to political reform.79

A day before Slovenia and Croatia declared independence, on 24 June 1991, a third financial protocol was approved with which the EC gave Yugoslavia 1.5 billion German Marks in loans At the same time the European Investment Bank also assured that it would give Yugoslavia another loan of 1.5 billion German Marks.80 Twelve EC foreign ministers simultaneously declared that they did not support Slovenian and Croatian endeavors to become independent and that they anxiously awaited further development of events in Yugoslavia.

https://cla.purdue.edu/academic/history/research/si/Team5Report.pdf

but what happened it was cia interfering, even amid all crisis YNA purchased weapons from ussR and like that probably threatened with shipment of 30 migs that any violet dissolution will be crushed in blood, even non of the republics didnt have weapons on their own, but cia and everything is possible, almost instantly it was delivered in enough quantities so the conflict will last as long as possible and would became as ludicrous as possible! so the eU proposal was refused by slovenians and croatians and everything was flushed towards war! must be noted also that all spinns were orchestrated as firestarter by usA but were conducted as grill by Germany which excuses are ridiculous amid all events!

In May 1991, Serb leaders prevented the Croatian Stjepan Mesic, inaccordance with the rotation procedure, from becoming Yugoslav President and Commander-in chief of the Yugoslav National Army. In the referendum on May 19th, 1991 Croatia supported independence; the outcome, however, was not accepted by the Serbs of Krajina, who in fact asked for the unification with Serbia. Furthermore, on 24 July 1991 Zagreb and Slovenia announced their “dissociation” from the Yugoslav federation. Belgrade reacted by deploying its Federal Army within Slovenia to reassert control over the state border.5International intervention and the Brioni agreement Following the reaction of Belgrade, the Slovenian government requested diplomatic mediation on the part of the European Community (hereafter EC) and of theConference on Security and Cooperation in Europe (hereafter CSCE).On 27 June 1991, EC Ministers, accepting the request, agreed not to recognize the Slovene and Croat secessions and called for the restoration of theconstitutional order and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia. Following this decisionan EC Troika was dispatched, composed of Jacques Poos of Luxembourg, Gianni De Michelis of Italy, and Hans van den Broek of the Netherlands. The aim was to help mediate the Slovene conflict at the federal and republican levels. The Troika brokered a cease-fire agreement that, in exchange for the withdrawal of JNA troops to their barracks, imposed a three-month suspension on Slovene and Croatindependence. This was in fact the content of the Brioni Agreement signed on 7 July 1991, under the political sponsorship of the European Community.6 Both of the separatist republics were required to suspend their declarations of disassociationfor three months and to accept the presence on their territory of an unarmed international observer mission organized by the EC on behalf of the CSCE.7 The monitoring body, namely the European Community Monitor Mission (hereafter ECMM), was composed of both civilian and military monitors, all of whom were unarmed. Its mandate was to help stabilize the cease-fire and monitor the implementation of the Brioni Agreement commitments. Regarding the Brioni Agreement it has to be clarified that the accord, even considering the increased stability of the region, actually spelled the end of the Yugoslav Federation. It merely established a moratorium on the implementation of independence but not a prohibition on the right of unilateral secession for Slovenia and Croatia.

http://www.eurac.edu/en/research/autonomies/minrig/Documents/Mirico/Report on interplay WEB.pdf

[noemon]

@noemon

Muslim is a religion. Balkan is a region, just like North America. Come on man. It's not like I targeted your nationality specifically as a Greek. As a matter of fact, I remember saying some nice things about the Greeks.

Balkan is a cultural group that is Orthodox predominantly and the former citizens of the Roman Empire(aka Byzantium).

It is quite a homogenous area in terms of religion, culture & food. You used it as a group, you said that the Balkan people are incapable to do peace. That is racism no matter how you cut it. No different than saying:

"African people cannot do civilisation" or

"Middle-eastern people are all suicide bombers"

"Black cannot do without crime"

It's all the same shit.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

Define "Orthodox." When I think "Orthodox" I think Orthodox Christians. The Balkans also have Muslims too.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

And Croats are Catholics (my wife is a Catholic but she has French Canadian blood in her).

[noemon]

And Black people have Muslims and Christians and Atheists.

And Balkan have Catholics too.

And Jews have Hebrew speakers and German and Ladinos.

And all cultural groups have varying degrees of something.

But you used it as a group to say:

"Balkan people cannot do peace"

Same as

"African people cannot do civilisation" or

"Middle-eastern people are all suicide bombers"

"Black cannot do without crime"

It's all the same racist shit.

Arrogant hubris just to make yourself feel bigger while putting down another group, however that group may be defined.

[Igor Antunov]

My three fifty on the topic, anecdotal I guess but I was there for 2 years during the conflict in the core region of the three sided war, and had some direct on the ground observations and scrapes.

We lived about 20 mins drive north from Sarajevo. Family being Croat and Serb aka catholic and orthodox, we lived in a Muslim majority neighborhood of a mixed town - 40% catholic/orthodox: 60% Muslim with some gypsies. I keep the muslims tallied separately because they were the majority. After everything became militarized, to the east were bosnian serb lines. They were dug in the mountains. To the west on the mountains were Bosnian muslim lines. Croats played no significant military part here, it was bosnian serbs and bosnian muslims. They would fling rocket artillery across our town to their respective hills, and heavy machine gun (anti aircraft guns adapted for land targets) fire. That was the bulk of the exchanges. It was not possible to leave the area safely, bosnian serbs were blockading everything to the north and east, muslims to the south and west. There were no checkpoints, but if you got in a car and rive in any direction, snipers would start blasting your vehicle. We tried this once and never again after our little fiat came under fire from multiple directions multiple times on a road north-east. We were essentially part of the siege of Sarajevo, but besieged by circumstance by multiple armies. Won't get into details on how we escaped, and why, for now.

Some interesting observations about how fucky everything was. My dad a Croat who was head of police turned head of militia during the war, was tasked with protection detail of the Bosnian Serb leadership. He and a few hundred croats, bosniaks and serb JNA affiliated militia (italian/french style military police, not peasant guards lol) who had once worked for the town police force plus some new recruits would go and protect the Republika srpska president. While he was away, the muslims and serbs would duke it out with artillery and heavy weapons on their respective hills, sometimes stray shells would land in our town. I had 3 near misses and a scrape won't bother with the details. Anyway every time he returned from duty, if we had been under fire, he would lead a small detail of mixed troops on a runaround to all the hill/mountainsides with the dug in formations. There were thousands of troops up there. He would complain and put all of them on notice and get their names/details and who fumbled their trajectories and hit the town below. Then relay that to the various leaderships.

long story short this got him many enemies and the situational became untenable. he was just a) doing his job - he had been reassigned from police to protection duties and b) trying to keep his town and family safe.

Our town also had some scrapes with jihadist elements, they were not tolerated by most bosnians especially in the mixed communities, and could only really set up presence southwest of sarajevo. They spoke no serbo-croatian/bosnia, they were completely alien. These are the expeditionary forces the west most prominently supported. They cut off heads of women and children in villages with no overwatch. A ragtag group of arabic guys (saudis?) walked past my house and executed my dog - a new puppy so i wasn't too attached but still- in front of me while I was playing under an apple tree. I don't think they made it out of town alive after my dad came back.

The gypsies all vanished, they escaped the second the war kicked off. They were best positioned to do so with their nomadic lifestyle. They also returned and took all the houses that the bosniaks, serbs and croats had left behind when the war was put on pause. A gypsie family took two of our houses and our car. Clever little tricksy gypsies. Some random serbs live on our block of land south of town on their new home. Hey I don't blame them, if its undefended you take and steal when desperate then profit I guess. We've given up on those, got shit elsewhere anyway.

Now this town is 90% muslim and 10% gypsy. It's a shit hole and none of the services work. They burn dirty coal for heating every winter in 2020. Not a single street isn't without potholes. The town is run by a baron that steals every euro cent. Great work guys. Much effort perfect outcome such good democrazy.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

Well, I tell you what, we all have our prejudices and biases. Nobody is perfect and I have seen some of your own prejudices and biases in your responses to me which were directed towards some of your fellow Balkan people.

[noemon]

@noemon

Well, I tell you what, we all have our prejudices and biases. Nobody is perfect and I have seen some of your own prejudices and biases in your responses to me.

If you 're going to accuse somebody for calling you out, you might as well just say whatever it is you think.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

Hey I'm calling you out too buddy. If you can call somebody out, then don't get angry when somebody calls you out as well.

Practice what you preach mate.

[noemon]

@noemon

Hey I'm calling you out too buddy. If you can call somebody out, then don't get angry when somebody calls you out as well.

Practice what you preach mate.

What have you called out? You have not said.

I do practice what I preach to the best of my abilities.

[Odiseizam]

My three fifty on the topic, anecdotal I guess but I was there for 2 years during the conflict in the core region of the three sided war, and had some direct on the ground observations and scrapes.

this is now the most needed witnessing so later warmongering to be avoided, what its more than possible if usA dominionists see fit to be done again!

what was sure then and now is that propaganda was huge tool before in and after the dissolution of Yugoslavia! I can expand my backhand to Politics_Observer in this context too, maybe like this he would understand what was happening back then i.e. not just the west but balkans smoked that cocktail too as then so as now, unfortunately ...

lsd - was the lie that as independent ex-yu republics would have bright future, then crack - would be addiction to haterate, while pcp - is the notion that they will be sooner or later again happy as nato and eu members, and after all fentanyl is the forgetfulness how everything came to this ... so Yours "three fifty on the topic" are exactly antidot to the constant fentanyl doping by the media nowadays, there is not even academic deconstruction on the matter as who were the true firestarters and how the've done that , except one ex-intelligence officer Yugoslav Petrushich [1][1][1] who step out publicly and started to demystify what really happened in 90's here ...

now things are as they are, but no one among western balkanians see the end of the tunnel, simply they are all lied constantly, eg. those that are more insightful are demotivated by the slovenian and croatian economic fiasco on top of european unionistic glass legs, but for most of the population what has left is apathy polished with false promises by the local corrupt politicians eg. like wait little bit more or we dont have alternative etc., instead to educate the masses like > Hope for the best but expect also the worst, so people would focus on their own lifes instead constantly waiting for neverland!

[Skynet]

@noemon

Serbian Narco Cartells:

https://www.google.com/search?q=serbia+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

Kosovo has not much cartells today, compared to Serbia, Monte Negro and Albania

Religion
Main article: Religion in Bosnia and Herzegovina
Religion in Bosnia and Herzegovina (2013 census)[6]
religion percent

Muslim
 
50.7%


Orthodox Christian
 
30.7%

Catholic
 
15.2%

Other
 
1.2%

Atheist
 
0.7%

Agnostic
 
0.3%

Not declared
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_an ... a#Religion

Even after the ethnic clensings commited by Serbs.

@Igor Antunov

Bosnia has the double wage for a common worker compared to Serbia.

In Repulika Srpska die people due to hunger, because there is no social care

[Igor Antunov]

I forgot to mention our closest family friends were muslim families that lived in our little public housing complex. To this day we visit them, they live and work elsewhere in europe. The muslims left in that town are just the old abandoned people. Any youngsters are gypsies and that's it. IT's dead. A town of about 30,000, that once had one of europe's largest arms manufacturies, is dead.

Got some sweet saudibucks for all those empty mosques though. Yes, the mosque built there cost tens of millions. Nobody visits. It's bizarre, seeing that shit in a dead dilapidated town that can't even afford to fix the bullet holes on buildings after 30 years. A giant shiny empty mosque. Even the locals despise it. Oh yeah Europe did contribute, EU funded and built a...road and a supermarket. Not even a full carriage highway, just a cheap highway. Country destroyed, to this day can't hold candle to how life was in the 80's but at least they got a nice from the west m i rite. China has invested more in Serbia in last 10 years than Europe did in the entire Balkans over 30 years. Ouch. Hell, Saudis have invested more in Bosnia than Europe has. Lol.

Even after the ethnic clensings commited by Serbs.

@Igor Antunov

Bosnia has the double wage for a common worker compared to Serbia.

In Repulika Srpska die people due to hunger, because there is no social care

Everybody got cleansed, serbs especially in what is now croatia. Nobody won. The black economy can' t be gauged, the balkans are a giant black economy. Official numbers don't mean a single thing. The serbs tried to revitalize the little bit of southern sarajevo they hold, it's now covered in graffiti and rotting away. The rest of the city is a dump.

[Skynet]

My Father was in the General Staff, the guy who buyed weapons. Before the war he supplied the besieged Croat city Vukovar with weapons, the hole City the Serbs butchered.



We won. We did not expect to keep the territory, we rather prepared for a last battle, so we do not end up in massgraves or worser in death camps without ressistance.

The war, was because we declared independence. Look what Karadzic says and what Alija says.


We have the army under controle, a mercenary army (all professionals) loyal to the money from Sarajewo. As soon as Dodik brakes the Dayton, ther will be regimechange.

But I doubt Dodik has ambitions to change status quo, he makes to much money by killing businessman and overtatking their companies...

Killing and raping dissidents...


Now is als a Bosnian patriot a Croat in the presidency, he fought in the A-BiH, Zeljko Komsic.



The Bosnian army did no ethnic cleansing, for example Novi Grad a Serb city was liberated, and not slaughted like the Chetiks did to the local population.

[noemon]

Karadzic was a wacko that has been convicted of genocide and crimes against humanity, I believe the entire world agrees on that and noone has disputed it.

Bosnia was a territory that was predominantly Serbian:



The Serbs wanted to rule themselves, the Muslims wanted to keep the Serbs under their control despite the fact that the Muslims themselves evoked the right of self-determination to break from Yugoslavia but refused the same right to the Serbs!?!

The Serbs signed various peace deals and the Muslims rejected those peace deals because they believed that US support will result to their victory, this dragged the war to the extremes and people like Karadzic took the lead, eventually everything went up in flames.

I highly doubt there in any person today that believes that what happened in Yugoslavia was right in any way.

Even you Sandjakliya have several times spoken of the old times with praise and nostalgia.

[Skynet]

Bosnia was ethnically mixed, not all serbs supported Karadzic, who said before election in Radio every Serb who goes voting ,will 3 Fingers be chopped off. (I heard him in radio).


He let a Olympia City:

become Rwanda!!!