[Arkady]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, its sad to admit but the capitalism has product by far more possibility of well being and freedom than communism. Apart from Usa which i consider the worst rogue state, can we honestly say that people triyng to escape from the eastern block were stupid not to enjoy the paradise in earth they had in their country or they were just exalted from wester propaganda?
The fact is clear: the iron curtain was an horrible big prison.
If we would have lived in Budapest or Prague or Ussr or wherever i the eastern block, we would hate the communism, and all the burocratic apparatus and its unbearable retoric. If you look at the soviet movie "the stain's death" you can feel the tremendous retoric that transpire from the commentary, the gloomy atmosfere which traspire from all the official documentary. A good taste of it, is the milan kundera's book -The Joke-, 1965 - communism was a tragedy. Unfortunately.

regards

[jaakko]

People who lived during socialism disagree with you (USSR 1920's - 50's and even 60's, PSR of Albania). Even in those countries where the socialist transition process was interrupted or reversed, a more or less large portion would disagree (GDR, Cuba).

But I agree that I might "hate communism" if I had lived in the USSR or its ally countries during their later decades. Capitalist restoration was on process under red flags(like in China) and revisionist politicians posing as communists (while serving the newly regrouping capitalist class). Marxism-Leninism was not taught in schools, I'd only learn slogans. So in effect, I might consider the leaders as being "communists", and while seeing the concrete effects of their policies but not their capitalist nature, I would "hate communism". Then I might get involved in political movement "against communism" which actually only speeded up the process that was already going on. I would support the completion of the very same thing that is the cause of my miseries. I would realise it later, but too late.

Of course I'm not putting the blame on the people. They are just products of their social environment.

But I must say that the majority of USSR's population would have wanted to retain even the nominally 'socialist' USSR of 1991.

[Krasniy Yastreb]

I agree with everything you have said.

Except of course that what you have described was not communism, in fact it was only just about socialism...

[sergei]

In a sense, you are correct. It was NOT a good time for all. But then, it really wasn't supposed to be.

Huh?

Capitalism promises Heaven on Earth NOW - instant gratification, don't wait, stomp on anyone in your way. Communism in the East promised work - more work, and for dessert? Work. Decades of it... but not to simply make everyone miserable. It was to BUILD something... something that would take many years to achieve. It's a rare man that would give up his life to see the lives of his grandchildren be better.... I could understand the desire of those that did not buy into the vision wanting to flee from it.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Realistictly, woundnt communism have to be a global proposition? Could communism survive in a world with successful capitalist states? To stay on the same level as a capitalist states, such as in the west, would not a communist state have to exploit 'man' somewhere along the line of production, at least on an international scale? Hypothetically, when we get to the point of global communism, how do we break down the thousands of miles of oceans, the barriers of nationalism, and tribal mentality, in order to figure out who gets to administer this beast.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Realistictly, woundnt communism have to be a global proposition? Could communism survive in a world with successful capitalist states? To stay on the same level as a capitalist states, such as in the west, would not a communist state have to exploit 'man' somewhere along the line of production, at least on an international scale? Hypothetically, when we get to the point of global communism, how do we break down the thousands of miles of oceans, the barriers of nationalism, and tribal mentality, in order to figure out who gets to administer this beast.

[CasX]

Communism is a global movement. "Workers of the world, Unite!"

Hypothetically, when we get to the point of global communism, how do we break down the thousands of miles of oceans, the barriers of nationalism

How can there be communism when you have nationalism? They are incompatible, do you mean marxist socialism...?

[Simon Ostap]

Ironically enough the socialist/communist communities that generally last the longest are smaller, simply because something such as communism works best in small doses goverened at the source, not with a central government hundreds of miles away, that sounds more like Imperialism to me.

In the end, we'd essentially need everyone to say alltogether 'Let's go Red' before communism could be implemented to it's full potential, although it might even work in a single country, if that country is self-sufficient or doesn't mind trading with capitalists.

I think what happened in Russia was a case of keeping up with the Jonses... keeping up with the Jonses is very difficult when you're a big red hoarde, and Mr.Jones is a big rich fatcat.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

How can there be communism when you have nationalism?

My point exactly, this tribal sense of mentatility that most cultures exhibit, is not just going to up and vanish.

[Boondock Saint]

How can there be communism when you have nationalism?

My point exactly, this tribal sense of mentatility that most cultures exhibit, is not just going to up and vanish.

It will if you have Stalin like people running the world ... everyone will agree with the Great Leader ... or they simply just disapear.

[The One.]

apparently im the only capitalist on this board

communism is a system that opress workers,and that descourages intellectuals despite what utopian marxists and communists might say.Professions that requires diplomas aren't paid high enough to persuade people to continue to study after high school.Often,young people prefered to work as farmers instead of doctors or lawyers because welll....whats the point?They get to get paid as much as a doctor or lawyer as farmers!And that is not to a country's advantage for a nation needs intellectuals in order to advance.Also,if you don't work,you get sent to jail.Isn't that a form of slavery?Dont work get sent to jail?

SInce when should intellectuals be paid the same wages than non-qualified workers?

capitalism on the other hand is much more better.Workers are free to go wherever they want,to work for whoever they want and start their own buissenesses(which may end up in turning into a huge corporation ) .The system also promote intellectuals for they are always in demand by corporations.And by the way i think CEOs and all those rich guys you seems to dislike deserved every ounces of their sucesses.They had to work hard and fight in order to obtain such sucess.Also the work of CEO doesn't limit itself to signing contract.It is highly intellectual work.A guy that doesn't understand maths(like a farmer for example) will never suceed in buisseness because he will never understand the market.He may suceed well on small-scale buiseness but he'll never become rich.

I feel like that every socialist/communist/marxist is compaining about the power of the rich but everyone...yes EVERYONE can become rich like them if they move their butts and work hard.

communism promote physical work(which is bad) but capitalism promote intellectual work.

[Skullers]

work as farmers instead of doctors or lawyers because welll....whats the point?They get to get paid as much as a doctor or lawyer as farmers!

"from each according to his ability, to each according to his labour - socialism
"from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - communism

Also,if you don't work,you get sent to jail.

"whoever doesn't work, doesn't eat" - socialism
"whoever doesn't work, is bored" - communism

EVERYONE can become rich like them if they move their butts and work hard.

Illusion. The bourgeoisie is always a small minority, there is no other way it could work. And under capitalism, whoever is talented or hard-working doesn't necessary get rich, or whoever is rich isn't necessary talented or hard-working...

and please, learn the basics of Marxism before criticizing it

[Comrade Ogilvy]

"whoever doesn't work, is bored" - communism

How is that fair? This is a utopia?

BTW, some in the communsist forum (most notably Osnowski) have said in communism, if you dont work, you dont eat. Now Im getting confused.

[sergei]

"SInce when should intellectuals be paid the same wages than non-qualified workers?"

Never - under Capitalism.

To understand why this is good requires a change of perspective. Friend, how long would you continue to work in the area of particle physics with a totally clogged toilet? Humans have a tendency to "stratify" work - assigning great importance to some things, while considering other things "less important". Just as with your car - let the "unimportant" things fail, and you will go nowhere. No garbage collection, water, food... it's not likely you will have the time to be "superior" - you'll be too busy trying to stay alive.

I hold a PhD in Analytical Chemistry. And my Comrades that work with electrical wiring, and collect garbage, and build spacecraft, and tend livestock are all JUST as important as I am. We are a Team - the Team of society. It's only right that we all share equally - we all work equally.

[The One.]

"whoever doesn't work, is bored"

So that what happens if you don't work in the soviet union?:?:
In cuba they send you to prison but int he USSR
You get bored and the gov will keep on feeding you and provide you a home??Thats all??Now thats utopia.
I doubt that:eh:

Illusion. The bourgeoisie is always a small minority, there is no other way it could work. And under capitalism, whoever is talented or hard-working doesn't necessary get rich, or whoever is rich isn't necessary talented or hard-working...

it's not an illusion.People are more likely to believe thats its almost impossible to become rich.it's just a question of whether or not you decide its possible or not.To become rich,you have to be more than talented or hard-working in order to succeed and become rich. You have to be innovative(grasp what others cant see),daring,you have to understand maths and the market, and most importantly you must be competent in your field.Whether its advanced nuclear technology or simple kitchen appliances you must be competent in your field.There's a couple more qualities that could help you become rich but aren't nescesseries,i wont list them here.But i can almost garantee you that if you
have all those qualities you will become rich...if you decide to.I have confidence that a lot of people could become rich if they decided to but instead choose another path because of lack of ambition.

"from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - communism

According to your ideology (and i'm basing it on what sergei is saying) everyone is "equal".

Friend, how long would you continue to work in the area of particle physics with a totally clogged toilet?

First i would try to unclog the toilet myself...No wait...First i'll try to convince my colleagues to do so!
But if the toilet really needed some "urgent professional attention" but the boss was too lazy to call a plumber ,i guess i would stay in the lab for about 3 months...or 3 weeks.But i seriously doubt that no one in the lab would be unable to unclog that toilet.

This is why unqualified people should be paid minimal wages:everyone can do it!But you my friend,you deserve a lot more than that.Because of your high level of education,you are able to do more complicated work than the normal folks out there and deserve a lot more money than the garbageman who picks up the trash in front of your house every morning(by the way garbageman is a very well paid for an unqualified profession).
Basic supply & demand

Beside if you are paid the same wage as unqualified workers,who is going to go and grab a PhD??:?:
There's no motivation

[Skullers]

So that what happens if you don't work in the soviet union?
In cuba they send you to prison but int he USSR

USSR and Cuba were under Socialism, not the final stage of Communism

You get bored and the gov will keep on feeding you and provide you a home??Thats all??Now thats utopia.I doubt that:eh:

Why a utopia? if the productive forces are advanced enough to satisfy the needs of all, why not?

Beside if you are paid the same wage as unqualified workers,who is going to go and grab a PhD??
There's no motivation

A lot of scientists actually really like what they do... and anyway would you rather scrub toilets or clean the streets or do some better work? There's some motivation...

[The One.]

USSR and Cuba were under Socialism, not the final stage of Communism

Then which country represents the final stage of communism?And if there are none please tell me what "the final stage of communism" is

Why a utopia? if the productive forces are advanced enough to satisfy the needs of all, why not?

a small percentage of the population will work.Okay.Why should people work if you give them food even if they don't work?I don't even want to know the number of punks and bums sitting around doing nothing
No.A nation cannot advance this way.

A lot of scientists actually really like what they do... and anyway would you rather scrub toilets or clean the streets or do some better work? There's some motivation...

I would rather work on some super-advanced project or start a uber-corporation rather than scrubbing toilets.
but some people will actually find cleaning the street and scrubbing toilets or working in a factory more appealling(don't ask me why i just cannot understand theses people but they are many)...After all no more studying...Espescially if they are payed the same wages as doctors or lawyers.So the number of intellectuals will decrease.

[Skullers]

Then which country represents the final stage of communism?And if there are none please tell me what "the final stage of communism" is

We should write a FAQ.

No.A nation cannot advance this way.

When the conditions are ready for Communism to work, there will be no nations, and the "advance" must take place BEFORE; as i said, the productive forces, and many other conditions must be ready for the final stage of Communism to work...

[The One.]

When the conditions are ready for Communism to work, there will be no nations, and the "advance" must take place BEFORE; as i said, the productive forces, and many other conditions must be ready for the final stage of Communism to work...

There is no limit.We can always advance in every ways possible and must do so.

Also by installing communism you're killing freedom .What if people don't like communism(and most people don't trust me) .Would you force them to become communist like they did in russia?You're killing economical freedom,people's dreams (How am i going ot become rich?? ,ill kill myself if i lived in a communist state ) as well as personal freedom ("WE DONT WANT COMMUNI---"*gunshot*) by installing a communist gov.

[Skullers]

you should read more Communist literature... a lot of people like to "criticize" Communism without really understanding it...

click